Scholarship Selection: School Strength?

Regarding your puzzlement why CC gave scholarship to certain schools, here is some additional stuff I learned. Based on what several PMSs told my son when he visited the battalion, it appears that when CC puts together an initial list, they send a potential scholarship winner list to the battalion PMS. At that point, battalion PMS can say "yay" or "nay" for any candidate on the potential list. I don't know whether this is a veto right or an expression of their preference for a certain candidate (or a lack thereof). My sentiment is, even if it is not an outright veto right on the part of the PMS, it does carry a weight. And, based on what my son heard, a very frequent reason for a "nay" by the PMS is s/he thinks the candidate will not be accepted by the school. I even heard that sometimes, PMS who works closely with the school admissions office will run the list by admission officers and at least get a preliminary input from the admissions officers. The PMSs don't like to have scholarship winners who later fail to get admitted to the school.

Everything you've said in your post is totally correct. CC does reach out to the PMSs of the schools to inquire about whether the applicant has the credentials to gain admission. In my DS's case last year, the PMS of DS's No. 1 school recommended that CC should award the scholarship to that No. 1 school. However, at the end of the day, CC elected not to award ANY scholarships to that school (there were some handed out in the October, but none for the January or March boards).

Your point about the relationship between the PMS and the school is a very good point. In my DS's case, the PMSs had zero input on the admissions process for any of his "crap-shoot" schools. In one school, the PMS actually wrote a formal letter of recommendation to the Dean of Admissions, as I think they do for most of the ROTC applicants who they want to join their unit, but that didn't carry the day on admissions.

But in other schools, the PMS has a long-standing relationship with the admissions office, such as is the case at clarkonarmy's school. I believe the admissions office really values the input that clarkson provides on a particular candidate. So your point about maintaining a close relationship with the PMS/ROO at the school is extremely important. Even if the ROTC folks don't have any influence at a particular school, having a formal letter of recommendation to the Dean of Admissions must count for something!

Truly excellent post, educateme! Folks need to know that AROTC scholarship decisions are not made in a vacuum at some detached, central location. The views of local PMS at the selected school is really important.
 
The fact and reality is this yr according to both Marist and Clarkson will be very fierce when it is going to come down to private colleges and the amount of scholarships they will be awarding.

If you can afford to pay for the college without the scholarship than put it on your list, BUT if you do not know how you will pay for the school without it, than start investigating other sources of financing now. Notice I did not say not to put it on the list; I said just be ready.

Now if you can't or don't want to search other avenues of paying for it, than also be prepared for the worst and that is no scholarship.

In the end, just like your SAT, your gpa, the amount of EC's and your PFA your reward or lack of one comes totally down to you and how badly you wanted that school. Those who prepared for this day to arrive will have the one thing that those who didn't prepare for it...the ability to say I gave it 110% all the time in everything and there wasn't anymore I could have given. The others will have a lifetime of IFS, If I didn't go out until midnight the night before the SAT I may have had a higher score. IF I didn't put off the essay until 10 Sunday night, I might have had an A. IF I ran in all types of weather maybe my PFA would have been higher.

The ball believe it or not started in your court a long time ago.
 
I recall last year that CC was placing emphasis/bias on state schools and so-called "elite" private colleges (ala "ivy league" schools) in deciding where to allocate the scholarships once awarded. I think if you lurk the Jan 2011 board or Mar 2011 there was a CC statement or something published about it somewhere. We already know about the state school situation, but does anyone know whether this is still the case for the private schools?
 
Theoretically if 80% are going state, you have 20% going private. My guess would be that they are also going to place into the equation the size/rating of the BN's at the schools besides the caliber of the school when assigning the number of scholarships awarded to the BN.

For example, although ERAU is not an Ivy it has a huge ROTC cadre. Hence, the draw for many candidates is the combination of the education AND ROTC.

The same can be said for Campbell University and RIT, both of them won the Macarthur award for top Army ROTC units in the country.

Many cadets will look at both the education and the BN as other posters have even stated regarding their own children's decision to attend a specific unit.

I can only see them looking at it from a position of supply and demand. If one university that is private, but not Ivy has 200 cadets, it would not be fair to give more to the Ivy just because it is an Ivy and they only have 50 cadets.
 
I am not sure this 80%-20% deal makes much sense unless there is a bit more to the story that I am missing(there probably is). The reason I say that is an out-of-state state school is pretty close to the same money as a private school.
 
ROTC is most likely getting a "bulk rate" on tuition
AROTC suggests negotiating tuition for Army Officers as grad students, it's not as cut and dried on tuition rates as universities would like you to believe.
 
Like I said there is probably a bit more to the story than I know!
 
I was going to say the same thing, many ROTC units will only charge the OOS cadet the IS cost. There is a sticky on this forum with a list of units that give financial breaks to ROTC cadets. http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=5429&page=3

If you go to post 15 - 20, you will see the list is very wide and very long. Some are just R & B, some also offer endowment/merit scholarships to the candidate so that it will reduce the cost.

Honestly, it is funny/sad about that issue regarding tuition rates. Colleges are not going to tell you as a scholarship recipient that you will be charged IS. Many times if you are OOS, you need to ask them if they have a different rate for ROTC cadets.

Overall, the AROTC IMPO is taking the approach that NROTC did last year and spreading the wealth even more by reducing the very costly colleges because they still have a manpower need to fulfill for FY 2016.

Scholarships are not a guarantee, it is a perk, and in the end as we all understand it is up to them on how to best utilize their limited funding.

The one thing that I always pound into poster's minds, is that 95% of SA applicants will apply for ROTC scholarships, but 95% of ROTC applicants are not applying for an SA. You may believe you have a strong packet, but to gauge your competition correctly you need to also look at the stats of SA candidates. Many of these kids are going to apply to Ivy caliber schools as their plan B. So, if you are looking at your competition as far as chances go, look there too.

I would also suggest to visit www.collegeconfidential.com for your 5 pick colleges. Under those schools start a chance me thread. You should also state you are going ROTC. The reason why is some schools "talk" or place an edge for these students. VT quickly comes to mind. The site is very much like this, filled with cadets, parents, alumni, and people with intimate knowledge of the school. It will also give you insight to see if the school is a match for you personally. Just like here, there is no stupid questions, so you should ask away.

If the posters on that site are saying this is a reach, understand with the decrease in scholarships it may be difficult to get one. If they say your stats are out the door for the school and are a def. IN, than that should make you feel more comfortable.

Honestly, I have to say this, yr. after yr., the competition has become stiffer and stiffer not only for ROTC, but for admittance to quality colleges. Even some IS colleges, have changed their admittance rate from % of OOS accepted to make up for shortfalls. In other words, they are taking less IS and more OOS. So IS colleges are no longer that safety it was yrs ago. That is on top of our economy forcing people to send kids IS, which has increased their selectivity rate.

Finally, use Naviance to see where you are falling in the chance me process.

The more you research the more confident you will feel about your chances. I understand it is frightening because of the What IFs, but playing Ostrich in the sand will not assist you any means in obtaining your goal of being in the U.S. Army.

Afterall, that is your goal, correct? The scholarship is just the perk!
 
Like I said there is probably a bit more to the story than I know!

I think that the lack of clarity in the process was my chief complaint about the process last year. As I recall, even the ROOs were kept in the dark about some very key issues last year (which resulted last year in conflicting messages being transmitted to potential applicants). Trying to figure this all out can truly drive folks crazy! :eek:

My personal belief is that it might be better for CC to be very specific and open with applicants about what it prefers in terms of school selection and where the dollars are going in the coming year. But they don't. If, say, AROTC strikes a "special deal" with a particular school to re-introduce ROTC to that school which has previously shunned ROTC over hot-button issues like DADT (whether because of politics or perhaps because the Army ultimately decides that this a good, long-term investment for ROTC generally to cultivate the relationship with the school, even though the non-existent ROTC unit at the school will intially be smaller and less prestigious than the ROTC unit at a nearby, big-established State U from a recruiting perspective, or perhaps because of some other unstated reason), then CC should announce the plan. Applicants -- while they may not like the Army's judgment about how and where they will focus recruiting efforts -- would at least then be in a position conform their application strategy efforts accordingly and effectively employ the right strategy for school selection. Of course, this would limit CC's ability to change its own fiscal strategy, which is why I understand why they do it the way they do.

I guess what I'm saying is that there will always be "more to the story" here, which is why my present belief is to simply advise applicants to list the schools where they want to attend, and not try to figure out what "the rest of the story" really is.

In this regard, applying to a service academy seems much more straight-forward than applying to ROTC. The expectations and procedures at the SAs (and even the SMCs) seem much more crystal clear.
 
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In this regard, applying to a service academy seems much more straight-forward than applying to ROTC. The expectations and procedures at the SAs (and even the SMCs) seem much more crystal clear.

You have that right and Army ROTC seems to be the least straight forward (don't know about Navy).
We decided son would list schools he truly was interested in and put them in the order he currently felt and interview at what he believes is his top choice school. He tries to dot the i's and cross the t's but spends no time worrying about the things he can't control or influence. If he receives a scholarship, fantastic. If he doesn't he will just follow a slightly different path.
 
Packer,

One thing IMPO that guarantees success is that the candidate wants to be there. If the cadet hates it nothing will motivate them to stay. Not you, not a scholarship and not an appointment to an SA.
 
You have that right and Army ROTC seems to be the least straight forward (don't know about Navy).
We decided son would list schools he truly was interested in and put them in the order he currently felt and interview at what he believes is his top choice school. He tries to dot the i's and cross the t's but spends no time worrying about the things he can't control or influence. If he receives a scholarship, fantastic. If he doesn't he will just follow a slightly different path.

I want to supplement my earlier post, because I hope no one interprets my use of the phrase "straight forward" as meaning the same thing as "underhanded" or "purposely hiding the ball to make things difficult for applicants." That is not what I meant. And that is not the case. CC is filled to the brim with dedicated folks who are really trying extremely hard to do the right thing and to accommodate the top choices of the most amount of candidates.

But CC has a very difficult job to do. It basically is charged with the task of doing what it believes is best for the Army and how it can recruit the best ROTC Class of 2016 possible given the number of dollars it has available to spend. That is an extraordinarily difficult task as everyone agrees

To top it off, the number of dollars available for CC to spend is subject to change on a moment's notice in this environment. And it is currently on a down cycle of less spending.

I suppose what I'm really advocating for is an idealistic approach. But idealistic approaches don't really exist anywhere. It is for that reason why I believe your approach, Packer, is truly the only way to deal with uncertain times. If we know that CC really does try to accommodate choices, then the only way to respond to that is to list one's true choices and let the cards fall where they may. No system is perfect, and "destiny" does have a role to play here.
 
My use of the term straight forward should be interpreted as opaque. I don't believe there is anything underhanded going on but the process is certainly less than clear at times and I think CC is swamped.
 
Patentesq,

I don't believe anyone would disagree with your assessment that the SA's are a more straight forward approach, because their system is less convoluted.

Look at the SA.

WCS for nom wins the apptmt.
Don't win the nom and you may go onto the NWP.

Now granted there are the slate issues, but not every applicant will have 5 noms (substituting schools for noms).

I always say the SA system is like a jigsaw puzzle trying to work with all of the noms. For WP they have a 6K piece puzzle at worst, but for AROTC it could be 20K.

Imagine making that puzzle. Which brings us back on topic regarding school strength, and your stats. You want to be that corner piece or at least an edge piece.

You are creating your own puzzle too as a candidate. You have to decide which school is a corner, and edge on a 4 sided piece. You need to look at the schools to decide which one of these pieces you are with regard to your chances.

I would add one more item into the equation. Look at the unit, talk to them regarding % that go AD, % that get their 1st career pick, stats from a historical perspective to get those options.

OML is going to be a biggie in this process.

Will you change your mind regarding your rack and stack of colleges if you find out that one has a 50% chance of getting AD Aviation if your gpa is at least 3.0 over a college that you have a 25% chance with the same gpa?

I think every candidate who is applying has a desire to serve, and has at least a general idea of the field. This is why it is INSANELY important to visit the BN when you do your college tour.

Parents, set up an appointment with the unit. This is not something that a good unit feels as a pain in their arse. They are more than happy to talk to potential cadets. Call ahead, and ask not only to talk to the staff, but ask if your child can meet with cadets. Prior to meeting the CC, set up a meeting place with your child. Meet the CC, ask them any questions that you need as a parent to be answered, don't helo! From there excuse yourself and walk the campus.

Cadets and candidates talk more freely about what it is really like without the folks. Folks usually = dog and pony show!

This will also allow your child to walk around campus as if they were attending already. He/She can get a true feeling because they don't stick out as a kid taking a tour (parents are the give a way), they appear just like every other kid there. They can just walk, think and feel it out for their self without the folks peppering them with questions; SO...What do you think....Do you like it better than XYZ...Can you see yourself here?

I know as a parent we don't mean to do that, but honestly we do, and it is hard for them to process their thoughts when they are forced to answer ours at the same time!

Leaving them alone, IMPO, allows them the time to digest everything and you will not need to pepper them, they will start talking it out. At least that is what my kids did. Actually, 2 out of 2 (1 AFROTC), made their decision the day of the visit and we walked to the Bursars that day.
 
another thing to consider. Army is very interested in creating an officer class that represents the civilian population more closely, geographically, ethnically, and socio-economically. When they have limited dollars to work with, and have two candidates with comparable qualifications, an Asian applicant from New England, for instance, will meet the Army's needs better, as they are currently under represented.

My son is half Asian. In general, in the admissions game to top elite colleges, having an Asian heritage is such a ding (totally overrepresented in these institutions), many Asian kids won't "advertise" it all over the place in their applications package. But for the ROTC scholarship application, this may have helped.

When we visited a PMS at the school he is at now (class started a few days ago), he said his wife is from Latin America (causasian), and if he were to advise his own son/daughter, the application package will go in as a "Hispanic" since Hispanic officers are under represented at the officer level.

During the whole application process last year, I clearly understood that my son needs to be packaged as a "differentiated product" the customer (Army) just must have to dare them into giving him a very expensive private school scholarship and no easy way out (inexpensive instate university).

I encouraged him to think in those terms when he wrote essays. In the end, he wrote an essay that described his international background, his cosmopolitan insight into wildly diverging countries and societies that he gained while traveling to more than 50 countries,and what he think it means for an Army officer to serve the needs of USA in a complicated geopolitical and cultural environment it must operate in. Whether this was the clincher or not, it's hard to say, but I think it helped a lot.

Regarding the prospect of success in the ROTC unit, the reason why his preference shifted from the #2 choice on the list to #1 is his impression when he visited both his #1 and #2 schools. He could clearly see that in the #2 school, he has everything it takes to emerge as a top cadet, while it was more iffy at the #1 choice school. He understood that in order to emerge on top of the OML list for branch selection, he needs to be a significant leader in the battalion, and he felt that the odds are much better at the #2 school than the #1 school. So, after the application was submitted his preference was changed for the top choice school. IN the end, the CC gave him the 4 year scholarship to this school (#2 on the school choice form), so everything really worked out the best.

BTW: the reason why he felt that he would have much better odds of becoming a top cadet at the #2 schools has nothing to do with the qualify and general caliber of the cadets at each school or the academic standard of the students at these schools (if anything #2 school is known for more rigorous academic standards and admissions standards).

As a parent, I was very glad that he changed his mind, because I could clearly see that #2 would give him much more rigorous academic education. ROTC or not, that was a very important part of the preference on my part, not that that trumps my son's own preference. I only have advisory input.

Now, is all this gaming? I don't think so. It's just utilizing all available advantages. No misrepresentation and no lies. My son is a die hard Army nut, and he considers it as his life long career. His choice is to go where the most conflicts are flaring and take on most dangerous assignment in most precarious places (as a parent, this gives me a chill on the spine). He feels that it's his duty to take on such tasks since he has led such a privileged life so far, and believes it's such a shame that the brunt of the burden of defending USA's interest are not borne by privileged kids like himself.

I waited a very long time for him to grow out of this juvenile fantasy, but in the end accepted it as a reality. Once I did that, I turned my attention to helping him get the best opportunity he could get and receive the most favorable treatment possible - fairly, by using a good strategy.
 
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