Scholastically Qualified

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Tough question. I am going to have to think about this one for a while. As far as I know, there is no promulgated guidelines and any theory that I have ever had, I have seen evidence to repute it. Keeping in mind that the Academy is looking for the absolute best candidates to fill the class, that there are several hundred Presidential nominations each year, and, if you are correct, not all the Presidential openings are filled, it would lead one to believe that the Presidential appointments follow hand-in-hand with the national pool selectees and that the bottom cutoff of each pool is similiar in qualifications. Dual nominated candidates who have, in the past, been awarded the MOC's nomination, if possible, doesn't seem to be the case anymore. My son was one of those. This year I saw a Presidential candidate without a LOA who, immediately upon becoming triple qualified, with no MOC nomination, be awarded an appointement. Bottom line gut feeling: Presidential nominations will not detract from the overall quality of the class.

Maybe usna1985, who probably sees a lot more Presidentials than I, has some better info.
 
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Agree with USNA 69 that it's a tough question. Here's the best I can do based upon my experience (and it's only that -- not USNA policy).

Presidential noms are non-competitive in that, if you're qualified for one, you get one. That, BTW, is why you should ALWAYS apply for all your MOC noms even if you have a Pres nom because it demonstrates that, in a competitive environment, you were deemed qualified among your peers.

It's also my understanding that there are many more Pres noms than there are available slots. My guess is that there are also more than 100 triple Q'ed candidates with Pres noms, meaning that not every triple Q'ed Pres nom candidate can be given an appointment.

Thus, even though your daughter is triple Q'ed w/a Pres nom doesn't mean she'll automatically get an appointment. This year, I have a candidate in the same situation as your daughter and he, too, is still waiting. So, in answer to your question, the reason they don't automatically give her an appointment is that they are waiting to see if there are candidates more qualified than she (in USNA's eyes) for those 100 Pres slots.

As to whether the Pres pool is "independent" from the MOC pool -- as with USNA 69, I'm not sure. My gut feel, like his, is that there is one pool from which they try to take the very best candidates, provided they have a place to "slot" them. The fact that she has noms from 2 sources really helps because it gives USNA more flexibility in that regard.
 
Thanks USNA 69 and 85. That was very helpful. We'll continue to wait and see how the process develops!

I assume that the reason so many Appointments are not given out until the end of the process is because for those candidates who are not LOAs/NAPS/Foundations/Primaries/Blue Chip athletes(?), Admissions first has to determine who all the other qualified candidates are. I assume the Board is now still in this process. Then, after this pool of other qualified candidates is defined, the Board then AGAIN reviews each qualified candidate's record and gives Appointments to those most qualified relative to the others in this qualified pool. Correct? I assume this follow-on selection process by the Board then further considers things such as legacy, extra-curriculars, teacher recommendations, etc. Do you have any idea when the Board really gets down to this part of its business? Beginning of March?

Thanks
 
I know only that it is a complicated process and that most (not all) offers of appointment go out by April 15th. I have 6 triple Q'ed candidates (some with LOAs and some not) and I haven't heard that anyone has actually received an appt. Of course, BGOs are often the last to know. One person (not triple Q'ed) has received an offer to NAPS/Foundation.

Finally, don't fret too much about the LOAs. Some won't be medically qualified and some won't get noms. The overwhelming majority of appointments don't have LOAs.
 
Also USNA69 and USNA 1985, not sure if you have any insight into the "recruited athlete" process with Admissions, but, my D was being recruited for a varsity sport. If she is in-fact still being recruited as an athlete, wouldn't you assume that since she was found qualified and has a Nomination that, as a recruited athlete, she would be offered an Appointment in conjunction with her being found "qualified"? Would the fact that she has not yet received an Appointment, despite her "qualified" status with a Nonimation, indicate she is not still in the "recruited athlete" stack? Or, do you know if just "blue chip" athletes are offered Appointments upon being found qualified? Are coaches given a defined number of "blue chip" slots? Could it be that other "non-blue chip" recruited athletes still compete for an Appointment in the qualified candidate pool? If so, I would assume that the Coach's interest would help in the process, but maybe isn't deteminative.
 
go navy81 said:
If she is in-fact still being recruited as an athlete, wouldn't you assume that since she was found qualified and has a Nomination that, as a recruited athlete, she would be offered an Appointment in conjunction with her being found "qualified"?
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Since I don't know the sport, this is a hard one. Coaches normally have more desired athletes than they have openings. And they are also dealing with the athletes and other schools. It can go down to the wire. Bottom line: Unless she is a definite, she may sit a while.


go navy81 said:
Would the fact that she has not yet received an Appointment, despite her "qualified" status with a Nonimation, indicate she is not still in the "recruited athlete" stack?
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Not at all. See above. I have not seen that many recruited athletes but I only recall one who was offered an appointment early in the process. And we lost him to Army.

go navy81 said:
Are coaches given a defined number of "blue chip" slots?
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Yes and one would be surprised how few there are.

go navy81 said:
Could it be that other "non-blue chip" recruited athletes still compete for an Appointment in the qualified candidate pool? .
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Yes, definitely.

go navy81 said:
If so, I would assume that the Coach's interest would help in the process, but maybe isn't deteminative.
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Yep, you seem to have a better handle on this process than I do.

My biggest fear with recruited athletes are those who are 3Q competitive, who want to go to the Academy regardless (ATTN: SEALION), who the coaches decide they don't want, and who fall through the regular Admissions Dept acceptance procedures crack. I lost one that way, learned my lesson, and, had I not interviened, am realitively sure I would have lost another.
 
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Thanks USNA69. Very Informative.

Can you expound a little on your last observation regarding the recruited athlete who is no longer wanted and then falls through the regular Admissions Office process crack?

Is this because while being recruited, the athlete's record is sheparded through the admissions process by an Athletic Department (AD)representative to the Admissions Office (for example, up through and including a determination by the Admissions Board that the candidate is Triple Q'd)? (Does the AD have reps that do this?) Then, for example, sometime after the Triple Q determination, the coach loses interest. Thus, the record is no longer sheparded through the process by the AD rep, and since the record has not ever been the responsibility of an Admissions Officer assigned to the Admissions Office, the record "falls through the crack" and is not further agressively pushed through the final part of the process, i.e., presented again to the Admissions Board for a detemination as to whether this qualified now-no-longer-recruited athlete should receive an Appointment out of the qualified pool? It seem that if the record is not pushed through the system by somebody, that it could "fall through the crack". I guess, eventually, when the Admissions Board's work has been completed, i.e., the authorized number of Appointments have been handed out, the record is discoverd again in a final "clean-up" process of closing out all of the candidate records, but now it's too late. All Appointments have been given out already? Is this the scenario?

With respect to our D, in response to our inquiry to the Admissions Office, we have been told by a LT in the Admissions Office that our D has been to the Board and has been found eligible to compete for an Appointment. Should the fact that we heard this from a LT in the Admissions Office, rather than just an Athletic Department rep, give us any sense of assurance that she hasn't/won't "fall through the crack" in the process? If not, what action did you take to correct the situation you speak of?

Sorry this is so long, but I thought if I've gotten it right above, it would save you time in responding. Any insights you have would be appreciated. I will also say she already received an Appointment to USAFA back in Dec! As you can see, the processes have been very different between USAFA and USNA.
Thanks
 
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I think your para 2 covers it all. It happened to me 4-5 years ago and, what I thought was a very competitive candidate, did not get an appointment. The sad thing was, that with my approval, he made the initial contact and got the coach interested. After the class was filled, I was discussing with Admissions all my potential candidates. I ascertained from the conversation that exactly what you described in para 2 happened.

The second case, I had the candidate repeatedly call the coach. When the coach finally made his decision, I confirmed with Admissions that the candidate's file was back in the regular pile.

Due to my experiences, I have been extremely hesitant to recommend that regular candidates contact coaches. Only the marginal ones and as a last minute last resort.
 
It is definitely not time to panic. It's only February. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of candidates haven't heard anything yet. Sure, some have, but most haven't.

I've found that the most highly qualified candidates get appointments in January and February (absent medical issues) but that most appointments come in March and early April. At the end of the day, the date yours comes doesn't matter at all (other than the excruciating pain of waiting) as long as it comes.

Wishing you and your daughter the best.
 
With most of the appointments being awarded in Mar/Apr and rolling admission as per your earlier read, does the board work through one state at a time? I would think that the board would view all the noms (from all of the sources) a candidate had as to not to duplicate an appointment. For example; if a candidate has 2noms (congress and Senator) he would not necessarily be competing directly with someone from his/her district depending on how the board sees fit to award a seat. I can see it to be very confusing set of nom pools that the board has to wade thru if that candidate could or should be awarded that seat. So, from the rolling admissions I would think that you might be able to determine which state has already been viewed as per candidate post.? Just guessing!
 
cga82 said:
With most of the appointments being awarded in Mar/Apr and rolling admission as per your earlier read, does the board work through one state at a time?
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Me thinks you are thinking too much and trying to make it too difficult.

Remember, basically all the board does is declare the candidate scholastically qualified. The package will enter the Board with a compiled total of Whole Person Assessment Points. The Board may change them upward or downward but when the package, leaves the Board the points are bassically fixed. Each qualified candidate will have a determined sum of points. In answer to your question, packages will go before the board as they become complete and after the BGO interview has been conducted. I have submitted an interview on Tuesday and the package go before the board on Thursday.

When any nomination come in, if it is a prinipal and that principal is qualified, the appointment goes to the principal. No further board action is required.

If the principal is not qualified and the alternates are ranked, the top ranked qualified alternate is awarded the appointment. Again, no further board action is required.

If the nomination is competitive or the principal is not qualified and the alternates are competing, then the nominees are simply ranked by their whole person assessment points and the high scored candidate is offered the appointment. This is where things bog down in that all the nominees' packages must be sufficiently evaluated as to ascertain who has the greatest number of points. Again, completed by the Admissions Board with no further board action required.

Now for your dilema. A slate of nominations come in and the top candidate has already been offered an appointment via another MOC. What to do? Simply look at #2 on both slates, pick the best as one of the two for an appointment, and relocate, if necessary, the original appointment to the other nominating source.

When all the above has been completed for all the primary nominating sources, all remaining qualified candidates with alternate nominations are placed in the national pool and ranked by whole person assessment points. They simply start at the top and work their way down to the cutoff point.
 
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USNA69. Sounds like the real difficult work by the Board then is determining whether a candidate is scholastically qualified or not. For this, they need to consider SAT/ACT, class rank, GPA, etc. I also assume each record has an Admissions Officer assigned to it and this Officer (or civilian rep) calculates the Whole Person Multiple based on all other factors, e.g., legacy, extracurriculars, leadership positions, etc. So, it sounds like if the candidate is considered scholastically qualified by the Board (the difficult decision), then it's just a further matter for the Board to determine how many points that qualified candidate has and whether that is enough to get one of the remaining Appointments (from the qualified pool). Sound right?
 
USNA69 and USNA 1985, I assume you both are BGOs and deal all the time with the candidates becoming frustrated with the waiting while the complete Admissions process takes place. It seems to me that the term "rolling admissions process" is a little misleading and the misperceptions caused by this lead to a lot of the candidates' frustrations. For example, the process is really only rolling ADMISSIONS for the most highly qualified (LOAs and Primaries). When the records of these highly qualified candidates are considered on a "rolling" basis, i.e., when their records are complete, they are given an admissions decision. For all other qualified candidates, final decisions aren't made on a "rolling" basis. They generally must first wait until the complete qualified pool of candidates is determined (most likely not completed until Feb) and then they are given a final determination after they are evaluated within this defined pool. So, I think most candidates believe that because it's a rolling admission process, when their record is complete, it will be considered for an admissions decision. This is not the case for the large majority of candidates. I read the USNA web site description of the process, and now that I've been fully involved in the process, I understand it and it is accurate. However, for those not so familiar, it can be misleading with respect to timeframes and processes for final decisions in this "rolling" process. It seems to me that a little more accurate description, tailored toward the uninformed, would alleviate a lot of the anxiety and endless questions that must occur every year. Just my thoughts.
 
go navy81 said:
For all other qualified candidates, final decisions aren't made on a "rolling" basis.
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It is "rolling", just not on your schedule. As per the catalog, in large bold print, it will arrive at the station on April 15. The same paragraph in the catalog that mentions "rolling" admissions, states that most will hear by April 15. Anyone who so much as scans the catalog realizes at least that it is not a normal college application. With that said, one expecting an appointment the day after they get their application submitted and nomination received is just not being realistic.

The board will continue to "roll". I have 6 3Qed candidates. One has already received an appointment via a Presidential nomination. Another has declined an appointment, and is going to WP. One or two are highly competitive and will probably receive their MOC's primary nomination. They will probably hear shortly. The other two will probably be national pool and will hear in April.

Your candidate should be talking to his BGO and the BGO should be telling him the same thing we are telling you on this forum. He knows your daughter's package. While he is not permitted to tell her anything specific, he may be able to allay your anxieties.

Good luck. Relax. Someone once told me good things come to those who wait.
 
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go navy81 said:
USNA 69

. However, it would appear to me that since all of the Presidential Nomination Appointments (100 max Appointees entering each year under Presidential Nominations) are usually not used in any given year, that the Academy would offer an Appointment to her (and those like her) under the Presidential Nomination as soon as she was found qualified. No?
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I dug back through all my old records after my previous response. From my limited data base, it appears that there are usually 500 +/- Presidential nominations per year resulting in 100 +/- appointments so they are all being utilized. In order to obtain the best mix, in many cases, the CGO is weighing these candidates in the MOC nominations also.
 
I would echo USNA69's comments on the nature of "rolling" admissions and won't repeat them. However, let me add a couple of comments of my own.

First, unlike civilian colleges, by law SAs have a hard cap on the number of appointees. If Yale has too many students accept, it can (1) ask some candidates to defer until January, or (2) suck it up and deal with it. Not the same with SAs, which must therefore be extremely careful to hit their numbers.

Second, some outstanding candidates may be waiting for medical waivers. SAs don't want to fill up their classes and then not have space for candidates who clear medical at the end.

Third, "rolling" primarily refers to review by the Admissions Board. However, as you can imagine, many packets are complete in late Nov/early Dec, which obviously backs up the system.

Fourth, MOCs have until Jan. 31 to get their noms into USNA. Some get them in early; others don't. Just b/c a candidate is notified of a nom doesn't necessarily mean the MOC has turned in his/her "paperwork" to the SA to make it official. Thus, realistically, USNA can't begin to form the next class until it has a firm handle on who got MOC noms.

I currently have 8 candidates with completed packets. All but 2 are triple Q'ed. 1 of those 2 has been offered NAPS/Foundation conditioned on medical qualification. The other 1/2 has medical issues. Of the remaining 6 who are triple Q'ed, 2 have LOAs. However, as of what I know today (and BGOs often are the last to know) NOT ONE has an offer of appointment.

Last year, one of my candidates had her ENTIRE packet complete (including medical qualification) by Oct. 5. She got an LOA in November. Got 2 MOC noms. Got her appointment Jan. 31. She is the earliest, in terms of completion, that I personally have seen in 6 years doing this. And even she didn't hear until nearly February.

I know the waiting is hard -- especially for those who got their stuff in early. Trust me, if your daughter gets her appointment, she will quickly forget the agonizing wait. Like in 2 seconds!
 
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