SEALs/Kings Point?

Making it to BUDS as an Officer is extremely difficult no matter what your commissioning source. I had a shipmate in my reserve unit that was a USNA grad, he went through all the SEAL programs at USNA, as a 1/C he was the M/N leader of the program you would think he was a shoe in. Nope, he said the wrong thing to the SEAL LT one day and poof, his SEAL career is over before it even starts. He never even made it to BUDS.

There was a guy a couple years behind me at KP who ended up failing out and finishing at SUNY. He wanted SEAL but wasn't going to get in so he turned down the commission and went to a recruiter. He enlisted and is now a SEAL.

Granted these are anecdotal, but in my opinion, if you are driven to be a SEAL and that is your ultimate goal than go enlist. Is it so important to be an Officer? Is being a SEAL Officer that important to you that you would give up being a SEAL altogether? If you look in to the Commissioning programs available to enlisted personnel you will see that it is much more likely to get commissioned as an already serving SEAL than it is to get selected for BUDS as an already serving Officer.

Which is fall back position will make you happier if you don't make your ultimate goal, being a SEAL First Class Petty Officer, or being a SWO Ensign?
 
ID_SURF said:
Hi. I hope I didn't sound like a jerk, it's just better not to say much publicly I am told.
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NSW personnel are protective of their identities, but everything you are discussing about the enlistment process and general training path is already publicly available information so you are fine.
 
tankercaptain said:
I will say this, Kings Point need to focus on it's core mission and that is producing merchant mariners for the US market. Which as many posters have said includes tugs/offshore/Deep Sea and Drilling.

It's sad to see the State Schools making the change and Kings Point is doing little to make the adjustment.

A new grad who gets the training for DP can get a job starting out at $110,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Within two years upgrade to second mate and Sr. DPO and make $165,000 year and by the time they are 30 be an OIM making $220,000.
Or an engineer getting a job as a subsea engineer sailing on a drillship and with in 5 years be making $250,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Kings Point should be on the forefront of this. I'm not saying because of pay, but this is the future of the US Merchant Marine. I put in pay because most kids have no idea the opportunities that are lay ahead for them and are told by a staff that hasn't been out to see in 30 years that sailing is a Lykes Lines ship to Africa. The belief that you get to see the world is myth. Spending 6 hours in a remote port is not seeing the world or sitting on a prepo ship in Deigo is not seeing the world, or running a Jones Act tanker from Garyville to Tampa or PE is not seeing the world. If your going to be gone you might as well get paid well for it.
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What he said ...

Look at how many jobs get shipped by the union halls in any given month, not a lot. Look at how many ships aare being built for the various aspects of the oil and gas industry ... a LOT more. Supply boats are getting bigger and more complicated. ISM and SIRE standards have companies turning more and more to academy graduates for OSV/PSV and ATBs. The guys who are really getting squeezed out are the old river rats who grew up on the water and are amazing boat handlers but are practically illiterate. They are being replaced by academy graduates and KP is late to the party in preparing her graduates for that aspect of the industry. My problem with the over militarization of KP extends from this reality. The top down hierarchical approach to leadership doesn't work on a deep sea vessel amongst other academy grads, and it works even less (is detrimental in truth) in the offshore/inland industries. The academies in general and KP in particular have extremely poor reputations in this regards.
 
KPEngineer said:
What he said ...

Look at how many jobs get shipped by the union halls in any given month, not a lot. Look at how many ships aare being built for the various aspects of the oil and gas industry ... a LOT more. Supply boats are getting bigger and more complicated. ISM and SIRE standards have companies turning more and more to academy graduates for OSV/PSV and ATBs. The guys who are really getting squeezed out are the old river rats who grew up on the water and are amazing boat handlers but are practically illiterate. They are being replaced by academy graduates and KP is late to the party in preparing her graduates for that aspect of the industry. My problem with the over militarization of KP extends from this reality. The top down hierarchical approach to leadership doesn't work on a deep sea vessel amongst other academy grads, and it works even less (is detrimental in truth) in the offshore/inland industries. The academies in general and KP in particular have extremely poor reputations in this regards.
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Yeah, exactly. Much is changing, especially offshore. Deeper water is requiring more sophisticated and larger equipment just to supply platforms and drilling rigs (oh, there is a difference and the press seems to be confused by it, but that isn't a point to be discussed here), as well as offshore construction vessels. As you state, the one armed, illiterate marginally English speaking tugboat/supply boat captain is becoming a thing of the past. Ones who have spent some time working offshore know exactly what I am talking about. . . .

As far as the top down hierarchical leadership approach, besides it not working very well amongst Academy grads, the smaller crews on blue water vessels (and I include ATBs here) makes it pretty useless.
 
Luigi59 said:
What is sadder is those who don't realize that the more "active duty" slots that come out of KP, the less the Congress and the taxpayers will see the need for the USMMA, as duplicating the efforts of ROTC and the other academies makes it unnecessary.

30%-35% of grads going to active duty military branches, from The United States Merchant Marine Academy, will ultimately be the reason it closes.

I think some folks need to wake up and smell the coffee, indeed.
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So Luigi, under this duplication theory of yours, Congress can start to cutting funding for the USCGA because of the steadily increasing number of KP grads that end up in the Coast Guard every year?:smile::smile::smile:
 
The OP's question was answered long ago but the thread drift has provided a lot of information about the industry and KP. It is stated that most of todays jobs are not in deep sea but in offshore and inland industries. It is also stated that KP is doing a poor job of preparing graduates for the jobs that are available. They are preparing grads for jobs that do not exist in significant numbers. Also, it is expressed that the military leadership training is off target. Accepting all of this, I have a question.
Why would a young person choose KP today (assuming KP chooses them)?
 
Packer said:
The OP's question was answered long ago but the thread drift has provided a lot of information about the industry and KP. It is stated that most of todays jobs are not in deep sea but in offshore and inland industries. It is also stated that KP is doing a poor job of preparing graduates for the jobs that are available. They are preparing grads for jobs that do not exist in significant numbers. Also, it is expressed that the military leadership training is off target. Accepting all of this, I have a question.
Why would a young person choose KP today (assuming KP chooses them)?
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The cost?
 
Packer said:
The OP's question was answered long ago but the thread drift has provided a lot of information about the industry and KP. It is stated that most of todays jobs are not in deep sea but in offshore and inland industries. It is also stated that KP is doing a poor job of preparing graduates for the jobs that are available. They are preparing grads for jobs that do not exist in significant numbers. Also, it is expressed that the military leadership training is off target. Accepting all of this, I have a question.
Why would a young person choose KP today (assuming KP chooses them)?
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Sea Year!!! Talk to my eighteen-year-old.
 
anyone else having trouble?

KPEngineer said:
What he said ...

ISM and SIRE standards have companies turning more and more to academy graduates for OSV/PSV and ATBs.
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I am barely following this conversation as it is, but these acronyms are killing me. But that's okay, talk amongst yourself. I'm getting better and will figure it out eventually.
 
Why would a young person choose KP today (assuming KP chooses them)?
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If you go in knowing that the deep sea jobs aren’t going to be there and that inland/offshore is the place to be, then you can make up for KPs shortcomings.

Get down to the waterfront … and not on the blow boats! Deckies should be learning small boat handling skills. Get on the Growler, Liberator and new Kings Pointer. Get as much time around NY Harbor as you can. There is good money to be made as a tug mate in NY and any experience around the port will look good to employers. Engineers will do well to learn the Detroits and CATs on the Liberator and Growler respectively, but I would spend time on the new Kings Pointer. She has the same engines as several tugboats I’ve been on and coming out of school with EMD experience is almost a guaranteed job.

Get any limited license you can. Deckies get your towing endorsement if you can, some experience along those lines if you cant. Engineers should be able to get a Designated Duty Engineer, 4000HP license. Some of the companies don’t understand unlimited licenses and this will speak their language. Get some sea time on a small vessel as part of your sea year. A certain amount of it counts towards your license anyway and the experience can’t be beat. Being 3A/E on a deep sea ship is light years easier than being the only engineer on a 100ft tugboat in the harbor.

When on sea year as an engine cadet, focus a lot of energy to learn the practical aspects of the job. Electrical, refrigeration, plumbing welding, etc. This is where you will spend almost 100% of your time as the engineer of an ATB. M/E issues are almost exclusively handled by vendors and they are smaller than the generators on your ship anyway.
Do your internship at one of the offshore/inland companies. It is a completely different world than Maersk/APL/Matson or any of the other deep sea companies.

ISM – International Safety Management
OSV – Offshore Supply Vessel
PSV – Platform Support Vessel
ATB – Articulated Tug and Barge
 
I have a different question, in this economy with the fiscal cliff and deficit, why should taxpayers pay for KP?

Not attacking, just wanting to understand the justification for the cost of keeping KP open? Every branch has to make cuts, and if 35% go AD, ROTC is cheaper, and OTS/OCS is even cheaper per member. There has to be some reason why the "free" education at a high cost. I just am curious to hear/read from posters why in this economy if the cost is like sister SAs of 415K per cadet/mid and only 35% go AD, we as taxpayers should pick up the dime. Retirees that served 20 yrs. are seeing their healthcare rates increase, they have seen only 1-2% pay raises over the past few yrs. Same with AD members. AFROTC has not increased the majority of their scholarship(95%) caps of 18K since 09 (?) while tuition rates typically jump 10% per yr.

Do not misinterpret me as sour grapes, there are none. It just is to me a taxpayer question, one that DS2 had to debate as part of his final in poli-sci on Monday. The question the prof posed was cuts must be made, should we pay for SAs at 400K per cadet/mid, or cut something from the AD world? Afterall 500 BN has been chopped, come Jan. 1st another 500 BN is on the table. DS2 asked me if I would support the SAs, and I do, but told him if another 500 BN has to be cut, than we need to re-look at the SA's/ROTC, be it fewer cadets/mids, stopping book allowances, re-vamping stipends, but when you need to save, everything should be on the table.
 
KP is not part of the Department of Defense. It is the Department of Transportation.

KP is such small potatoes in the overall budget that it is frankly not even worth bringing up in financial terms. You can make a much bigger impact with much less effort elsewhere, i.e. baseline budgeting.

We act like every cabinet secretary is the greatest one to ever come along and then we don't expect them to be able to tighten their belt and do the same job with the same money?!?!?!? Freeze spending at current levels and watch the deficit go down ... how hard is that? There is a ridiculous amount of waste in government but no one does a thing about it.

NO ONE who gets paid via tax dollars should be getting a raise right now.
 
KPEngineer said:
NO ONE who gets paid via tax dollars should be getting a raise right now.
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I don't disagree. Part of the benefit of working for the federal government is job security. That may change soon, but that's part of the bonus to being a fed.


I feel like I can say that, because my wife's a fed... but we'll see what happens. Cuts need to be made.

If course, decreasing the deficit needs to take a bite out of the national debt...and that is going to be VERY hard.
 
Thanks for the clarification regarding where the money comes from, but still that is taxpayer money, granted the pool is DoT not DoD, but it is tax dollars.

I always chuckle at the defense:
KPEngineer said:
NO ONE who gets paid via tax dollars should be getting a raise right now.
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Every AD and retiree pays taxes, in essence, they pay part of their own salary by paying taxes. Do your tax dollars pay your salary? AD military members can say yes? You do realize their pay raise is tied to COLA, and it is now 1% below COLA, so in essence every yr they are losing ground because their salary is worth less, meanwhile, they pay taxes like you and me.
They are willing to risk their life and die for you, me and the man behind the tree while paying their salary via paying taxes. Without them willing to defend this great nation, moving every 2,3,4 yrs., where would we be?

I am not trying to make this political, but that comment is a hot topic, especially when you realize that many AD enlisted members pay for groceries at the Commissary using EBT (welfare). Go to any AF base and talk to any 1st shirt, you will quickly realize they don't have enough funds to make sure every enlisted family in their squadron has a Xmas turkey, let alone presents for their kids. It is truly heartbreaking to see what these families endure financially, let alone emotionally.

GS, SES, I am with you, but unlike sister SAs, not one of these cadets/mids will walk out making 110K after graduation. Sure as sheaatt they will not see 220K at 30 which some posters are stating, they won't even see that as an O6 at 40 something.

So the question still remains, if it costs 415K for each kid, what is the ROI for a taxpayer to justify the cost in this economy for KP, even if it is coming out of DoT, especially if only 65% go into the DoT world?

Sorry for my venting, but I have seen 1st hand by delivering Xmas cookies for 20 yrs and making holidays baskets, or sitting on the scholarship board, and in charge of the thrift shop on base, that IMPO, they deserve a raise.
 
Pima said:
Not attacking, just wanting to understand the justification for the cost of keeping KP open?
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As a taxpayer, I question the justification of paying $235 million dollars for each F-35.

That's enough taxpayer money to fund the entire budget of KP for 3 years.
 
I spent 10 years working in DOD Acquisition. I could tell you stories that would make you vomit, which is why I USED to work in DOD Acquisition.

A COLA and a "raise" are two different things. Most of the time they get both. When I was GS, my pay would go up every year on Jan 1, and then again in June on my anniversary date. They are getting something which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of people. I don't begrudge them anything, but I get downright steamed when any government person tries to pretend that they have it hard.

It must be nice to get COLAs and then complain that its not enough. It must be nice to not have to pay for housing if you don't want to. It must be nice to get tax free shopping. I did 12 years USNR, with 2 of them on recall to AD. Those were the 2 cushiest years I've had financially. I respect the military but I don't weep for their financial well being. The Military has a way better deal then they realize. Few of them have even lived in the private sector so don't even know how we live.

So I'm supposed to fawn over them because they pay for a part of their own salary? Guess what ... We all pay the rest. Does anyone else on this forum pay any part of my salary? Big fat NO! I work hard to generate income for my company which pays my salary. It nice for them to be immune from the realities of the economy just because they wear a uniform and oh by the way, the rest of you have to cough up the money to pay me. Call it COLA if you will, but its still less money in my pocket to feed my kids with.

I have to get off here for a while or I am going to get banned. Discuss amongst yourself while I got do some yoga or something to calm down!!!!!!!!
 
Not going to divert the thread regarding the 35, but will only say, in a 35 you have multiple countries buying it, it is a defense issue needed when China is moving forward, and if you look inside a 35, you will see it impacts our economy...computer chips, steel, glass, leather,paint, light bulbs, etc. KP is geo-centric to KP. If it closed down tomorrow, one community would take a hit. If the 35 shut down, we are looking at towns across the US losing contracts and jobs.

Apples and oranges.

Apples and oranges also when you discuss 415K for each person and what is our taxpayer return on that investment compared to their sister service.

In no way, shape or form am I saying close KP, I am saying I would like to hear why it shouldn't close when it costs so much.

I may be married to Bullet, and he knows the 35, but after 20 yrs I know that is classified info. I would assume like the Strike it will fly CAP missions. 9/11 is still fresh in my mind. What will these KP grads do to insure our safety if there is another 9/11?

I just want to know if it costs 40 Million a yr, why should I support it while I watch other funding be cut? I am not talking DoD, how about education? How about since they are part of DoT, highway funding?

I am not trying to be political, I am trying to learn, and right now, all I am getting is attack, not defense. Defend, educate me why it is a wise decision to keep KP. That is all I want.
 
Pima said:
Every AD and retiree pays taxes, in essence, they pay part of their own salary by paying taxes. Do your tax dollars pay your salary? AD military members can say yes? You do realize their pay raise is tied to COLA, and it is now 1% below COLA, so in essence every yr they are losing ground because their salary is worth less, meanwhile, they pay taxes like you and me.
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Except that AD doesn't pay 100% of his income to taxes. And the portion of my paycheck I pay to taxes is greater than that of a AD member.

On top of that, there are very few employers (I can't name a single one) that allows someone to retire at age 38, and then continue to work in the federal government (effectively double dipping, compliments of the tax payer).
 
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