SEALs/Kings Point?

[Packer]

If you go in knowing that the deep sea jobs aren’t going to be there and that inland/offshore is the place to be, then you can make up for KPs shortcomings.

Great information
Most of what I am hearing is that KP will provide you a foundation but one needs to do a fair bit more to make themselves marketable in todays world. So is their an advantage today (other than cost) of going to KP rather than one of the other maritime academies?

 

[KPEngineer]

Great information
Most of what I am hearing is that KP will provide you a foundation but one needs to do a fair bit more to make themselves marketable in todays world. So is their an advantage today (other than cost) of going to KP rather than one of the other maritime academies?

Sea year.

There is not much difference between sea year and sailing after graduation except for the pay. It is a realistic experience of what you will face as a licensed officer. I personally cannot see much value added to the school ship experience except that they do go to better ports and stay longer. Although I understand the state schools are putting some people on commercial ships now also.

 

[cb7893]

A new grad who gets the training for DP can get a job starting out at $110,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Within two years upgrade to second mate and Sr. DPO and make $165,000 year and by the time they are 30 be an OIM making $220,000.
Or an engineer getting a job as a subsea engineer sailing on a drillship and with in 5 years be making $250,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Kings Point should be on the forefront of this.

Everyone seems to be asking the question of "why the taxpayer should pay...?", rhetorically.

It seems to me, as a taxpayer, like I'm geting a helluva deal on the USMMA grads who choose to go AD in a military branch. They obviously are hellbent on military service. They should be at least as well trained as my AROTC Cadet MSII and at a lesser cost than at an SA.

The legit question is, "Should we pay the cost lock, stock and barrel for the education of a kid who walks into the compensation described above?"

How about one or more of these options:

-Grad who goes commercial pays back something out of that $110k starting pay.
-Have grad's employer pay something back.
-Assess every ship that unloads at US port x/per container, barrel of dry ton.
-Assess every driller ship, platform tender, etc. operating in US waters.

I say the above as the father of a 4yr scholarship cadet. If he were to choose to go reserve, he probably should pay back some of his Scholarship $.

I read somewhere that we unload something like 40-50 million containers/yr. We export by ship 3-4 mil tons of grains and grain products/wk. Add in everything else from drilling to petroleum and products we are talking hundreds of billions of dollars of business and the industry can't come up with $40-50 million a year for USMMA. Sounds like we're getting played.

 

[KPEngineer]

OK, I'm back. what can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.

I just want to know if it costs 40 Million a yr, why should I support it while I watch other funding be cut? I am not talking DoD, how about education? How about since they are part of DoT, highway funding?

It's about return on investment and the productivity matrix. How much time and effort does it take to actually close it vs. how much money are you saving? My argument is not that KP is so important that we can never close it. I argue that the money you save is so small in the greater scheme of things that your effort is better directed elsewhere. There is more money to be saved with less effort in other departments and programs. Lets do that first, and then talk about KP later.

KP is the type of program that will stay around because its not a lot of money and there a lot of hidden consequences to closing it because of its tentacles into DoD capabilities for strategic sealift. You would spend 10s of millions of dollars to contractors just rewriting everyon'e readiness requirements and reporting standards.

My personal opinion is that everyone has to take a little bit of a hit. An accross the board percentage reduction for everyone is the best approach. It is the least painful, easiest to manage and it takes politics out the discussion. The biggest obstacle is baseline budgeting. You can say were going to have a spending freeze and then everyone's budgets go up 8%!

 

[KPEngineer]

The legit question is, "Should we pay the cost lock, stock and barrel for the education of a kid who walks into the compensation described above?"

that kid will pay it back in taxes a lot faster than someone going AD.

 

[Packer]

Sea year.

There is not much difference between sea year and sailing after graduation except for the pay. It is a realistic experience of what you will face as a licensed officer. I personally cannot see much value added to the school ship experience except that they do go to better ports and stay longer. Although I understand the state schools are putting some people on commercial ships now also.

To paraphrase: At KP they are getting the basic education plus experience from a 1 year "internship".
Thanks

 

[KPEngineer]

To paraphrase: At KP they are getting the basic education plus experience from a 1 year "internship".
Thanks

A real world "internship". The school ships are definitely better than the classroom, but just don't measure up if you ask me.

 

[Lynpar]

Alert: most of you who recognize my handle have heard me say most of this before. Feel free to jump ahead.

Newbies, continue reading please. shake:
Why would someone want to attend KP? A rhetorical question posed earlier that got me thinking.
The year and half at KP have proven to be the most interesting College experience I can imagine for DS. Including any "normal" college as we have a son there too. Yes he too is having a good time but it is nowhere near as interesting. I also will lump ( oohh dangerous territory here) the full on military academy or Ivy covered campus. Each offer the best of the best in thier mission. KP gives a bit of both. KP is full of extraordinary opportunities for all of their students. The waterfront alone is an experience most who attend KP would never in a million years have the oppotunity to know. The vast array of sailing opportunites in a second to none facility. I mean it, second to none. I do not know much about all the teams but Offshore and Power Squadren offer opportunites to some without much previous experience thankfully. Willingness to learn and dedication to hard work seem to be almost as important as past experience. Wow! DS understands his amazing good fortune in this regard. The state of the art vessels and world class instructors in one place are mind boggling. The athletic teams are another shining example of being able to make a difference for your team without being an olympian or future pro athlete. A small school like KP offers the chance to truely be a part of a great team. Other DS goes to Indiana University. It is great fit for him. it is a huge campus, tens of thousands of students, number one ranked basketball team ( until last weekend loss to hometown Butler Bulldogs that is- Yeah yeah, congrats Aooga - trader but unless you are possibly on the way to the NBA you are in the stands cheering or selling your season tickets for big bucks. KP's swim team is capable of beating Div ll teams and I beleive has even beaten a Div l team who didn't give them enough respect and swam off ( meaning not their usual line up)- HA- bet they don't do that again! Last year a 15 female was named Div lll athlete of the year in basketball I believe. Many sporting clubs abound as well. A curriculum that includes firefighting, meteorology, Cellestial navigation.....interesting classes to say the least. Learning all things maritime ( knowing some tweeking of the curriculum is needed ie DP- you guys teach me so much). How many college students graduate with BS degrees, and are licensed professionals capable of making more than their parents in their first year out of a four year school? The leadership training the the regiment ( also a hot topic of debate but speaking in general terms) offers and the ability to learn disipiline only just short of active duty or one of the other one service academy sources. Please note I am in no way saying KP is better than ANY of the other academies in any way. My respect for them is unwavering. ( insert flag waving here)
The uniform! Okay really superficial here but still really gives a source of pride. I notice whenever I see DS in uniform he stands a little taller and has sort of a humble swagger if you will. At any rate he feels proud and wants to act in a way that honors the uniform and what it stands for. Not to mention NYC being your place to hang once in a while, in uniform. An attention magnet for sure in one of the coolest cities on the planet. Did I mention waterfront campus with a western sunset view of Manhattan? How about an education there is absolutely no way we as a family could afford? The maritime industry in general terms, an ever changing, necessary, honorable, interesting, varied, possibly very lucrative, profession that is suited to those who want something different in life. The prestige of a service academy. Again with the shallow end here but I know for a fact it is important to DS to be at a place he is very proud to claim. During the midst of personal and academy related turmoil last year he questioned that belief only briefly. Overall he couldn't be more proud to be at KP. Sea year. An oppotunity second to none I am aware of for specific skill building, traveling the world ( even if port time is limited to several hours if any sometimes) a break from their normal regimented life. A time to let their hair grow, literely I have seen pictures of DS in two separate eateries in two different countries just this week. KP is for adventure seekers with side of wanderlust.
The people they meet are fascinating and offer a world of experience and advice along with an opportunity to see up close a perfessional working in this field. Talk about an awesome work and abroad program. And....they get paid for this. An alumni that is said to be a powerful and close knit community. There are dozens of reason to choose KP.

 

[Pima]

KPEngineer,

How will it really impact the DoD regarding sealift? Navy could use NROTC or OCS at a lower cost than any SA? So now what? Why should the DoT spend that money if it can be done cheaper via the DoD and off the rolls for DoT?

Taxpayer question.


LITS you are 1000% correct 100% of any military member will not pay 100% regarding taxes, but like any company part of the salary is bennies, and I think you are discussing BAH. In that case the military has stated this is part of your salary for housing. Companies don't expect employees to live in a car, they expect part of their salary to be used for housing. The military is just saying at this rank, this amount of dependents, this is how much we are going to pay.
, correcdt
KPEngineer, and how many yrs would that be? 10? If so student loans are 10 yrs too, and the govt will not only get taxes, but also the interest on the loans.

If they can pay it back in taxes within 5, than that also is a negative because, you are saying they got a 415K free education and pay 80K a yr in taxes. I would love at 47 to have to pay 80K in taxes per yr, let alone 22-27 yos.

lynpar,
I respect your child's decision, but for me we are on a fiscal cliff right now, and many of your points illustrate why I am questioning our tax dollars being spent. I am more than willing to slash every SA and ROTC budget. As I stated before remove book allowances for ROTC, slash stipends, etc. I just want one person to illustrate that no other SA can nit fulfill USMMA's mission from a taxpayer position. A USNA or CGA grad could leave and command ships for Maersk or P & O correct? An USMMA grad could go rated Army, AF or Navy correct? If so isn't ROTC or OTS cheaper?

We need to cut.

 

[cb7893]

that kid will pay it back in taxes a lot faster than someone going AD.

So will a cardiologist straight out of his residency, but he still paid for college and medical school. He was then paid slave wages through his internship and residency.

By your logic we should pay for the education of every kid who walks into that kind of compensaton immediately following graduation.

The amount of taxes one pays entitles one to nothing more and nothing less. Everyone's taxes go into the same rat hole.

 

[KPEngineer]

KPEngineer,

How will it really impact the DoD regarding sealift? Navy could use NROTC or OCS at a lower cost than any SA? So now what? Why should the DoT spend that money if it can be done cheaper via the DoD and off the rolls for DoT?

To simplify it (There aren't enough megabytes otherwise), The navy gets most of its SSOs from KP. If you close KP where are going to get the SSO? Now, theoretically you don't have the personnel to man all the RRF ships in case of a war. Suddenly MSC's readiness status drops. 1st Armored Division (just to pick one) now can't get to a major theater war outside of the US within its required timeframe. Now 1AD's readiness status drops. There are massive amounts of unseen domino effects. Especially within DoD, EVERYTHING is interconnected. Uncle Sam is happy to pay the $40 mil to just not have to deal with all the Generals and Admirals crying because they see their next star fading away.

LITS you are 1000% correct 100% of any military member will not pay 100% regarding taxes, but like any company part of the salary is bennies, and I think you are discussing BAH. In that case the military has stated this is part of your salary for housing. Companies don't expect employees to live in a car, they expect part of their salary to be used for housing. The military is just saying at this rank, this amount of dependents, this is how much we are going to pay.

If I was on active duty as an O5, 14+ years, I would be making $87,000+ . Not to shabby in its own right. Now I get another 20,000 plus tax free just to pay for my housing? There are plenty of non military families making due on a lot less than 87,000 who pay for their own houses out of their own pockets AFTER paying taxes on the money. And I'm supposed to feel bad for the military. Don't think so.

KPEngineer, and how many yrs would that be? 10? If so student loans are 10 yrs too, and the govt will not only get taxes, but also the interest on the loans.

If they can pay it back in taxes within 5, than that also is a negative because, you are saying they got a 415K free education and pay 80K a yr in taxes. I would love at 47 to have to pay 80K in taxes per yr, let alone 22-27 yos.

I'm not saying that alone makes it worthwhile. I'm not saying that it's a bid difference, just that the difference exists.

 

[cb7893]

Why would someone want to attend KP?... There are dozens of reason to choose KP.

How about this reason: a free education and training to walk into the following:

Originally Posted by tankercaptain
A new grad who gets the training for DP can get a job starting out at $110,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Within two years upgrade to second mate and Sr. DPO and make $165,000 year and by the time they are 30 be an OIM making $220,000.
Or an engineer getting a job as a subsea engineer sailing on a drillship and with in 5 years be making $250,000 a year working one month on and one month off.

With only reserve commitment to the military?

You all would be best off keeping this scam quiet. I'm about ready to write every member of my landlocked state's congressional delegation.

 

[Lynpar]

Pima,
As always you are a steely eyed realist!
Stop it.
I was answering the other question of would you want to attend KP.
As for why we should fund or have KP,
I got nothing. Aside from a profound gratitude that is.

 

[KPMum2012]

Great information
Most of what I am hearing is that KP will provide you a foundation but one needs to do a fair bit more to make themselves marketable in todays world. So is their an advantage today (other than cost) of going to KP rather than one of the other maritime academies?

Jumping in to this discussion late - and I'm not going anywhere near the arguments over funding.

DD is a new 3rd engineer in the relief pool for NOAA. She is a few weeks in to a 6 week assignment in Hawaii. NOAA ships do not take KP cadets on sea year. Her shipmates assume that the new 3rd knows nothing and are constantly surprised when she says, "Yes, I know how to do that. I've done it before." Oh, and she's the relief for a 2nd engineer slot. She has more basic skills than they expect from a newly licensed 3rd because she went to KP. The management at NOAA know that and actively recruit KP engineers. They held her job for her for 4 months while she completed her final requirements as a deferred grad. Last Spring she probably would have been one of those telling prospective students to stay away. But now she is already starting to recognized how much she gained from her time at KP. Yes, there is an advantage.

 

[cb7893]

Jumping in to this discussion late - and I'm not going anywhere near the arguments over funding.

DD is a new 3rd engineer in the relief pool for NOAA. She is a few weeks in to a 6 week assignment in Hawaii. NOAA ships do not take KP cadets on sea year. Her shipmates assume that the new 3rd knows nothing and are constantly surprised when she says, "Yes, I know how to do that. I've done it before." Oh, and she's the relief for a 2nd engineer slot. She has more basic skills than they expect from a newly licensed 3rd because she went to KP. The management at NOAA know that and actively recruit KP engineers. They held her job for her for 4 months while she completed her final requirements as a deferred grad. Last Spring she probably would have been one of those telling prospective students to stay away. But now she is already starting to recognized how much she gained from her time at KP. Yes, there is an advantage.

Sorry I can't resist.

Is she earning $110K/yr working every other month. The Gov't paid for her education and then hired her to work, that makes sense.

Can't Haliburton or Transocean or Maersk offer a little something for the effort? some of that $110K for a few years.

Congratulations to her!

 

[KPMum2012]

No, she won't be making $110K - maybe half that depending on how busy she wants to be and how much over time she works. But she chose to work for NOAA for other reasons.

 

[tankercaptain]

No, she won't be making $110K - maybe half that depending on how busy she wants to be and how much over time she works. But she chose to work for NOAA for other reasons.

Understand where I'm coming from as this comment is coming from experience. Unless she wants to become a NOAA Corps commissioned officer she is wasting her time at NOAA. I could fill pages why that is, but she needs to be looking at other companies if she really wants to sail.
With that being said KP does a horrible and I mean a horrible job when it comes to mentoring midshipman on sailing jobs post graduation. There is no one there to goto or ask with regards sailing jobs.

 

[Packer]

With that being said KP does a horrible and I mean a horrible job when it comes to mentoring midshipman on sailing jobs post graduation. There is no one there to goto or ask with regards sailing jobs.

Wow, this just keeps coming back. I get that the industry offers some tremendous opportunities to people suited for that type of work. However, I keep hearing that KP does a poor job on all of these fronts that are important. I understand there will always be criticism as that is human nature but the level of criticism seems a bit higher than average. Is KP doing anything to try and adress these shortcomings or does KP even recognize these various issues as shortcoming that need adressed?

 

[MumKP2015]

I have to chime in about a previous comment. As I recall the midshipman at KP were some of the first people to provide assistance to transport people away from the city during 911. They also have been involved in helping out after Hurricane Sandy. I think KP as the other Service Academies build character. I think it may be worthwhile to mention the midshipman at KP do not get paid monthly. The only time they are paid is for work done during their sea year. We investigated an other SA and the students from my understanding are paid something monthly. There are also some expenses that the student pays each trimester to the school. My DS has a twin sister going to a traditional college and I admit that it isn't the same as paying tuition at a traditional college. I just don't think you are comparing apples to apples here. KP is an excellent school, and there are I am sure areas of study that can be improved upon. However KP has a strategic plan and is working on specific areas. Just my two cents.

 

[Packer]

I have to chime in about a previous comment. As I recall the midshipman at KP were some of the first people to provide assistance to transport people away from the city during 911. They also have been involved in helping out after Hurricane Sandy. I think KP as the other Service Academies build character. I think it may be worthwhile to mention the midshipman at KP do not get paid monthly. The only time they are paid is for work done during their sea year. We investigated an other SA and the students from my understanding are paid something monthly. There are also some expenses that the student pays each trimester to the school. My DS has a twin sister going to a traditional college and I admit that it isn't the same as paying tuition at a traditional college. I just don't think you are comparing apples to apples here. KP is an excellent school, and there are I am sure areas of study that can be improved upon. However KP has a strategic plan and is working on specific areas. Just my two cents.

On the pay you are correct. I think the current pay at the other four academies is about $975/mo. Their expenses( uniforms, computer, etc.) are deducted from their pay.