The application gives you a chance to explain your situation and make emphasis, so do it. I wasn't too proud of getting into a bad accident and being cited for failing to yield, but I listed it. I would believe that admissions cares more about a history of crime rather than a single incident years ago. If admissions doesn't accept you because you listed the incident, then at least you're out with your honor.
Security Clearance
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Thunderbolt
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I have to do a lot of reflection and consideration here. I actually feel I shouldn't of had ever been charged so this is actually really hard for me. It goes more against my honor by putting it down. But my question was
Admissions and confidential clearances are different and are conducted by different people correct?
What I put down on my clearance will not be under the eyes of admissions themselves right?
USNA69,
"EG, I think I finally follow your concern. You are not concerned that the activities will prevent a security clearance but feel that if the admissions board saw them, they would deny you admission. Again disclose them freely. You will get the clearance request package after you have been granted admissions. Just ensure that you are totally open on it and you will have not problems."
This is just a scenario: What if I didn't disclose them to admissions on the application, but disclosed them only on my security clearance? These are controlled by different administrations (I believe) so there wouldn't be a conflict? Is this clearance package done while at the academy, or is it done before we arrive there?
Admissions and confidential clearances are different and are conducted by different people correct?
What I put down on my clearance will not be under the eyes of admissions themselves right?
USNA69,
"EG, I think I finally follow your concern. You are not concerned that the activities will prevent a security clearance but feel that if the admissions board saw them, they would deny you admission. Again disclose them freely. You will get the clearance request package after you have been granted admissions. Just ensure that you are totally open on it and you will have not problems."
This is just a scenario: What if I didn't disclose them to admissions on the application, but disclosed them only on my security clearance? These are controlled by different administrations (I believe) so there wouldn't be a conflict? Is this clearance package done while at the academy, or is it done before we arrive there?
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Luigi59
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Exar Ganis said:
Honor, personal integrity, and loyalty to the service, its customs and its traditions, are fundamental characteristics essential to a successful Naval Officer. Any midshipman unable to conduct himself at all times in a manner indicating the highest standards of honesty, integrity, and manliness, is unfit to hold a commission in the Navy or to enjoy the privilege of being a member of the Brigade. Therefore, any midshipman guilty of offenses of a dishonest nature, such as Falsehood (including any form of deception or attempt to deceive) or Fraud (including false muster- answering for another at muster, or any form of cheating) or of offenses indicating Moral Turpitude, is an individual intolerable to the Brigade, and becomes immediately subject to a recommendation for dismissal from the Naval Service.
Disclose it. Consider it as the first of many "tests" of your own honor & integrity.
USNA requests the clearance during plebe summer. I am just guessing here but it is a valid logical guess based on my knowledge of how things work. The list is returned from NIS with 1216 "approved as requested" and one "continuing investigation to a very minor possible incident which happened a long time ago which is probably of no consequence, but we are required by law to investigate." The Academy checks your application. Nothing. EG is standing at the other end of the long green table.
Worst case scenario. NIS deems that it is important and withholds your clearance. You will not only probably be kicked out of the Academy but will face prison time for intentionally falsifying government records with the intent to deceive.
Thunderbolt
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No no. I'm not going to hold any information against the confidential security clearance (when do you get your questionnaire and package for it? Is it an automatic process after you are accepted, or do you have to fill out an additional form AFTER your appointment?). There is no point in risking that. What I am concerned with is the application in general. If I selected "no record" (Legally, I'm allowed to do this, although the app will most likely tell us expunged and sealed records must still be listed) and STILL put down the minor incident on the security clearance, can the respective academy SEE the security clearances afterwards, than may possibly point out that it wasn't listed on my application; thus there would be an inconsistency?
You mentioned NIS. These individuals are not part of the respective academies, and run their own investigations for clearances... thus, what we put on their questionnaire, shouldn't be within the hands of the academy unless a SERIOUS thing was reported.
You mentioned NIS. These individuals are not part of the respective academies, and run their own investigations for clearances... thus, what we put on their questionnaire, shouldn't be within the hands of the academy unless a SERIOUS thing was reported.
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EG, never assume that information will not make it from one spot to another. Example, an applicant does not disclose any history of ADD on his DoDMERB physical. When this applicant gets his recommendations from his school teachers one mentions how great he did in school, especially with his ADD.
The teachers recommendation is sealed and sent to the service academy admissions office. Admissions then notifies DoDMERB.
Based on your statement that NIS is not part of the academies, in the scenerio abouve, this information should never get to DoDMERB since DoDMERB is not part of the academies.
Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. I could sit on here and tell every applicant and their parents that they will not have any problems, because then I wouldn't have to tell anyone bad news. No one likes to be the bearer of bad news.
If you made a mistake, tell it like it was. If you haven't done anything stupid since, and don't plan on doing anything stupid in the future, let them know that as well. Never assume that if you don't tell Mom, but you do tell Grandpa, that it won't make it back to Mom. We are living in the electronic age, and information is readily available.
The teachers recommendation is sealed and sent to the service academy admissions office. Admissions then notifies DoDMERB.
Based on your statement that NIS is not part of the academies, in the scenerio abouve, this information should never get to DoDMERB since DoDMERB is not part of the academies.
Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. I could sit on here and tell every applicant and their parents that they will not have any problems, because then I wouldn't have to tell anyone bad news. No one likes to be the bearer of bad news.
If you made a mistake, tell it like it was. If you haven't done anything stupid since, and don't plan on doing anything stupid in the future, let them know that as well. Never assume that if you don't tell Mom, but you do tell Grandpa, that it won't make it back to Mom. We are living in the electronic age, and information is readily available.
By not putting this offense down, you're deceiving the Academy. It's plain and simple. Explain the offense and how you cooperated with everything. If you play your cards right, you can even put it into the essay asking how you exhibited honor (by going to the cops and helping out).
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Exar, listen to me VERY carefully....
The question has been answered, but you either aren't listening or are being fed a line from somewhere else which is causing you to have doubts. You have one BGO and one Alumni here giving you the answer, as well as a few others with reasons to know.
When you apply to USxA, they DO perform a criminal background check simply because they don't want an axe murderer joining the next class. If you have a record of any kind, whether it is deserved or not, the very best thing you can do is to lay it all out on the table and explain what happened.
Anything that looks like you are trying to hide something, whether it's justified or not, will be seen far more seriously and negatively than you being honest up front. If you think you got screwed over by having the record, then explain why in a mature and measured fashion, but do NOT hide it.
CONFIDENTIAL clearances are not difficult to get, and while I don't have the specifics, I am confident that 99% of what a CONFIDENTIAL screen would look at is already covered during the admissions process.
So once again, if you are serious about applying, just answer all the questions truthfully, provide whatever you think you need to provide to explain whatever mark may be on your record, and then roll the dice. To do anything else will GUARANTEE you will not get an appointment.
That's the answer. Take it or leave it.
The question has been answered, but you either aren't listening or are being fed a line from somewhere else which is causing you to have doubts. You have one BGO and one Alumni here giving you the answer, as well as a few others with reasons to know.
When you apply to USxA, they DO perform a criminal background check simply because they don't want an axe murderer joining the next class. If you have a record of any kind, whether it is deserved or not, the very best thing you can do is to lay it all out on the table and explain what happened.
Anything that looks like you are trying to hide something, whether it's justified or not, will be seen far more seriously and negatively than you being honest up front. If you think you got screwed over by having the record, then explain why in a mature and measured fashion, but do NOT hide it.
CONFIDENTIAL clearances are not difficult to get, and while I don't have the specifics, I am confident that 99% of what a CONFIDENTIAL screen would look at is already covered during the admissions process.
So once again, if you are serious about applying, just answer all the questions truthfully, provide whatever you think you need to provide to explain whatever mark may be on your record, and then roll the dice. To do anything else will GUARANTEE you will not get an appointment.
That's the answer. Take it or leave it.
Thunderbolt
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Yea, I am being Fed a line from somewhere else. A lot of people told me that it'll only be held against me, and unless I'm a Valedictorian or some other top ace, I won't get an appointment flat out because they don't want anyone with a record. On the USNA application, I actually did write down the whole story on a remarks box, but I DID not check the box saying I was charged with anything. I explained to them how I helped in the investigation and that I was "cited with receiving a stolen 10 dollar hood ornament from local child"
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I can bet you all the money in the world I'll get nothing but questions, and probably an endless barrage of disrespect which will only lead to a dismissal.
But I thank you all for the ethics and all, but I didn't really get an answer besides what RETNavy mentioned above. Somewhere down the line, information can end up in different places... BUT I need an answer for this question plain and simple as is..:
1. Confidential Security Clearances are administered and operated entirely by NIS, and information given to NIS wouldn't be under the eyes of the academy unless a serious find was discovered. There'd be no reason for NIS to look back at our application because they are achieving a different goal. right?
RETNavy, you gave me a scenario involving Dodmerb and admissions, but don't they work more closely together, and information between them is passed on since the academy is the one to decide whether to grant waivers,.. etc.
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I can bet you all the money in the world I'll get nothing but questions, and probably an endless barrage of disrespect which will only lead to a dismissal.
But I thank you all for the ethics and all, but I didn't really get an answer besides what RETNavy mentioned above. Somewhere down the line, information can end up in different places... BUT I need an answer for this question plain and simple as is..:
1. Confidential Security Clearances are administered and operated entirely by NIS, and information given to NIS wouldn't be under the eyes of the academy unless a serious find was discovered. There'd be no reason for NIS to look back at our application because they are achieving a different goal. right?
RETNavy, you gave me a scenario involving Dodmerb and admissions, but don't they work more closely together, and information between them is passed on since the academy is the one to decide whether to grant waivers,.. etc.
EG, you might be surprised what admissions sees from applicants, and what it lets through. The worst thing they can say is no, and you'll never know unless you try.
You would be surprised at how close NIS and admissions may work. There is an NIS office on the academy, and, I don't know this for fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if they worked closely together.
So you want another example of how information from one place can get to another place that is totally separate. Here goes, and this is straight from the you have to see it to believe it files.
Take the Zamora/Graham case. They killed a girl in Texas, she went to the Naval Academy, he went to the Air Force Academy. She made a mention of it to her roommate at USNA. They are now both in jail.
Or: A sailor works in the engine room of ship #1. He knows someone who is collecting extra money from the Navy that he's not entitled to. This sailor mentions this in passing to a fellow sailor he knows who works at the base gym. The sailor who works at the gym mentions it to a personnelman who works out at the gym. The personnelman goes back to work and looks this up. He then passes the information to a personnelman he knows who works on ship #1. Next thing you know the sailor who was collecting the extra monies is now sitting in the brig.
Long story short, you never know who might mention something in passing, completely innocently, that may affect someone who didn't want A to know but told B. It may go through C and D, maybe even F before it gets back to A.
It is not a secret if two people know. Just remember that and do what is right.
You would be surprised at how close NIS and admissions may work. There is an NIS office on the academy, and, I don't know this for fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if they worked closely together.
So you want another example of how information from one place can get to another place that is totally separate. Here goes, and this is straight from the you have to see it to believe it files.
Take the Zamora/Graham case. They killed a girl in Texas, she went to the Naval Academy, he went to the Air Force Academy. She made a mention of it to her roommate at USNA. They are now both in jail.
Or: A sailor works in the engine room of ship #1. He knows someone who is collecting extra money from the Navy that he's not entitled to. This sailor mentions this in passing to a fellow sailor he knows who works at the base gym. The sailor who works at the gym mentions it to a personnelman who works out at the gym. The personnelman goes back to work and looks this up. He then passes the information to a personnelman he knows who works on ship #1. Next thing you know the sailor who was collecting the extra monies is now sitting in the brig.
Long story short, you never know who might mention something in passing, completely innocently, that may affect someone who didn't want A to know but told B. It may go through C and D, maybe even F before it gets back to A.
It is not a secret if two people know. Just remember that and do what is right.
Thunderbolt
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Alright thanks for the advice. I'm sure if I explained it all on the application, they won't hold too much against me. I'm going to test the law once more. If it fails me again, I will hate my government forever.
When I was fifteen, I came forward with honesty and integrity by being a law abiding citizen. Instead of rewarding me, they rudely charged me through a citation of.. "receiving petty theft item from suspected individual"
---For those that are wondering, I contacted a JAG officer, and we're going to find a way to have these records flat out destroyed--- something in the legal process was just plain wrong and ignorant. I hate those bastards at Law and Order Office.
I will once again honestly come forward. If they do the same thing as the law and order office did, I will forever mistrust the Feds. This won't test my integrity, this is going to test the reliability of the justice system.
---
True Story: When I was doing my 10 hours of community service, the Military police guys asked if I robbed a store or vandalized something. When I told them the truth, they said.. "why the F*** did you even bother returning the item. Lesson learned for you."
When I was fifteen, I came forward with honesty and integrity by being a law abiding citizen. Instead of rewarding me, they rudely charged me through a citation of.. "receiving petty theft item from suspected individual"
---For those that are wondering, I contacted a JAG officer, and we're going to find a way to have these records flat out destroyed--- something in the legal process was just plain wrong and ignorant. I hate those bastards at Law and Order Office.
I will once again honestly come forward. If they do the same thing as the law and order office did, I will forever mistrust the Feds. This won't test my integrity, this is going to test the reliability of the justice system.
---
True Story: When I was doing my 10 hours of community service, the Military police guys asked if I robbed a store or vandalized something. When I told them the truth, they said.. "why the F*** did you even bother returning the item. Lesson learned for you."
Is it:
Or:
This:
Or this:
Members of this board have expended several hours advising you based on what you have told us. I don't think we were working with the facts. If the people who are "feeding you a line" know the reality ofthe facts more than you have told us, perhaps they are correct.
Or:
Exar Ganis said:
This:
Exar Ganis said:
Or this:
Exar Ganis said:
Members of this board have expended several hours advising you based on what you have told us. I don't think we were working with the facts. If the people who are "feeding you a line" know the reality ofthe facts more than you have told us, perhaps they are correct.
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Thunderbolt
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Well I didn't write it fact by fact. I should have wrote a narrative so I wouldn't confuse anyone.
For the first quote: They did give me 50 hours of service. When I took it up with the commander, he subtracted 40 hours because of my honesty and cooperation. I don't know why he didn't subtract all of them. It's probably because he didn't want to bother trying to take so much time to have the case deleted entirely since the guy they were looking for escaped from the peninsula because his family PCSed. Lucky guy he was. He would've surely had around 100+ hours.
Second Quote: True as it is
Third Quote: True as it is. After I wrote the statement, I was given the illusion that there would be no charges because the minor infraction was dealt with honesty and integrity. 3 months later, I was summoned to the law and order office, and they notified me that I was getting hours. I swear I wanted to break the guy's face with my knee.
Fourth Quote: True as it is
To sum it all up. Obviously, there was a charge snaked in somewhere along the lines or else I wouldn't of had been summoned in the first place. As I repeated before elsewhere, my father didn't take serious steps to ensure that the charges wouldn't take place because he THOUGHT that the local records were kept here, and only here, and that juvenile records would be protected. Since it was a minor infraction, the Law and Order Office said it would be destroyed within three years (If im correct, that would be around NOW)... That is why I'm pissed off right now. If he's destroying it, and if I get expunged, I would imagine that the records could no where be found. The security clearances couldn't somehow pull information out of thin air. There will be an appointment with a Jag officer within this week to ensure that these records are expunged and shredded. I can feed you guys the legal advice and dialouge that goes on between me and him to see where I stand within this issue.
As usual, I thank you all for your interest and support
For the first quote: They did give me 50 hours of service. When I took it up with the commander, he subtracted 40 hours because of my honesty and cooperation. I don't know why he didn't subtract all of them. It's probably because he didn't want to bother trying to take so much time to have the case deleted entirely since the guy they were looking for escaped from the peninsula because his family PCSed. Lucky guy he was. He would've surely had around 100+ hours.
Second Quote: True as it is
Third Quote: True as it is. After I wrote the statement, I was given the illusion that there would be no charges because the minor infraction was dealt with honesty and integrity. 3 months later, I was summoned to the law and order office, and they notified me that I was getting hours. I swear I wanted to break the guy's face with my knee.
Fourth Quote: True as it is
To sum it all up. Obviously, there was a charge snaked in somewhere along the lines or else I wouldn't of had been summoned in the first place. As I repeated before elsewhere, my father didn't take serious steps to ensure that the charges wouldn't take place because he THOUGHT that the local records were kept here, and only here, and that juvenile records would be protected. Since it was a minor infraction, the Law and Order Office said it would be destroyed within three years (If im correct, that would be around NOW)... That is why I'm pissed off right now. If he's destroying it, and if I get expunged, I would imagine that the records could no where be found. The security clearances couldn't somehow pull information out of thin air. There will be an appointment with a Jag officer within this week to ensure that these records are expunged and shredded. I can feed you guys the legal advice and dialouge that goes on between me and him to see where I stand within this issue.
As usual, I thank you all for your interest and support
Luigi59
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My advice is:
1. Lie on the Application about your past crimes.
2. Apply from two different claimed states of residence.
3. Leave your contact lenses in until just before your eye exam.
4. Go ahead and break the MP's face with your knee.
5. Slip the MD a $20 and tell him to put down 120/80 BP.
6. Harbor a deep seated Hatred of the US Govt. Forever.
1. Lie on the Application about your past crimes.
2. Apply from two different claimed states of residence.
3. Leave your contact lenses in until just before your eye exam.
4. Go ahead and break the MP's face with your knee.
5. Slip the MD a $20 and tell him to put down 120/80 BP.
6. Harbor a deep seated Hatred of the US Govt. Forever.
Okay, EG, let's play a game. You have your meeting. The JAG officer assures you that these records have been expunged and shredded. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the exact question as asked by the USNA on-line application. However, here is the direct quote from the BGO manual of a highly suggested question to ask candidates:
Should somewhere in your applicantion process, someone reads this question to you, how will you answer it? Especially the first two parts.
Thunderbolt
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By law, a juvenile record is protected, and if it is expunged or shredded, you are by law authorized to say "no record".
The benefits of expunging your juvenile records are as follows:
1. When your child's records are sealed, the records of arrest, detention, prosecution and conviction are physically sealed off and/or destroyed.
2. You are authorized by law to say you have never been convicted.
3. You can start adulthood on a "clean" state.
4. You can help prevent losing a good job because of a prior juvenile matter.
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I believe security clearances should be the ONLY type of document where I can list my so-called infraction, but other than that, expunging records defeat s the whole purpose in allowing an individual rehabilitate himself to a clean state. Let's all face it. The academy will look at an individual with any type of record (except speeding tickets) as a last candidate to be granted admission of any kind. BUT, then again, I WILL put this infraction down and be upfront with USNA. I bet you gold that I won't get an appointment because of it.
The benefits of expunging your juvenile records are as follows:
1. When your child's records are sealed, the records of arrest, detention, prosecution and conviction are physically sealed off and/or destroyed.
2. You are authorized by law to say you have never been convicted.
3. You can start adulthood on a "clean" state.
4. You can help prevent losing a good job because of a prior juvenile matter.
----------------------
I believe security clearances should be the ONLY type of document where I can list my so-called infraction, but other than that, expunging records defeat s the whole purpose in allowing an individual rehabilitate himself to a clean state. Let's all face it. The academy will look at an individual with any type of record (except speeding tickets) as a last candidate to be granted admission of any kind. BUT, then again, I WILL put this infraction down and be upfront with USNA. I bet you gold that I won't get an appointment because of it.
My advice is:
1. Lie on the Application about your past crimes.
2. Apply from two different claimed states of residence.
3. Leave your contact lenses in until just before your eye exam.
4. Go ahead and break the MP's face with your knee.
5. Slip the MD a $20 and tell him to put down 120/80 BP.
6. Harbor a deep seated Hatred of the US Govt. Forever.
Don't forget that #3 was me.
No worries, I've learned my lesson.
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EG, listen.... No matter what you do, you'll not be able to skirt the questions on a federal service academy application. If you try to cover this issue up, no academy will deem you officer material. Period. I don't know how else to put it. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just telling you DO NOT make a bad decision this early in the application. It will not bode well I promise you.
100% of those responding to your questions on this issue should be an indicator that you should not lie about your past. I'm afraid this thread has run it's course and if it continues along the path its going, I will lock the thread as I feel it it not productive to keep beating this dead dog. Take the advice and move on.
100% of those responding to your questions on this issue should be an indicator that you should not lie about your past. I'm afraid this thread has run it's course and if it continues along the path its going, I will lock the thread as I feel it it not productive to keep beating this dead dog. Take the advice and move on.
Thunderbolt
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Question: I know for every other school in the United States, I have the legal right to put down "no record"
Are you guys telling me that for the academy, I do NOT have the legal right to put down "no record" ?
Are you guys telling me that for the academy, I do NOT have the legal right to put down "no record" ?
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Its an issue of morals more than your looking into your legal rights to privacy. I believe the long and short of what has been said here is that those wishing to become Officers need to be on a higher level of complete honesty as their decisions effect lives. Being shady on some small issue will not earn you the trust needed for this type of career. I do not want you to think that I find your worry a petty issue. Filling out this application business is a scary thing. But darlin', I'd be more worried about other things. From what you described, I truly feel you need not worry yourself sick over it. What does your family think about it?
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