Separated Past 2/C Year or Beyond

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by GreenArcher, May 14, 2013.

  1. GreenArcher

    GreenArcher New Member

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    I have a friend who has been separated from the Naval Academy as a 2/C for an Honor Offense. It is their first conduct/honor problem but their grades have never been good. Their parents know and want to appeal because the school is partially at fault but the Midshipman partially wants to move on in their life, with or without their parents support. What choices do they have to get somewhere in their life?
     
  2. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Explain how the school is "partially at fault."
     
  3. Hurricane12

    Hurricane12 USNA 2012

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    Yeah...what?
     
  4. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    I think this may be a case of the "telephone game" from the mid/parents to the OP to this forum. I also don't see how USNA is at fault for an honor violation.

    As a general rule, there is an automatic "appeals" process for all honor offenses. The decision to separate goes at least to the Superintendent and maybe even to SecNav.

    Once that process has been exhausted, there really aren't a lot of remaining options other than to file suit . . . and that's unlikely to be successful. If separation has occurred, the most important point is to determine whether the mid will have to repay some or all of her education.

    There has been a very detailed discussion of this subject (albeit the discharge was for conduct not honor) on the USAFA forum: http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=32160
     
  5. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    The authority to separate midshipmen for conduct or in-aptitude (and I believe this would include honor, even though it isn't specifically stated) resides with the Secretary of the Navy. Everything else through the chain of command is a recommendation -- though, 99% of the time the SECNAV is going to side with the chain of command unless something is extremely misaligned. I believe the only "appeals" process is through the Board of Corrections for Naval Records (BCNR) once a SECNAV decision is made.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I read this as the OP has decided he doesn't want to fight it, but the folks do.

    I agree with other posters regarding questions and reviewing the AFA thread.

    He may want to move on, but when he realizes they can hand him a 6 figure bill for his education, with no degree, he may agree with his parents to fight it.

    There is another thread here, albeit, ROTC that illustrates the Navy isn't joking when collecting money. 143K for an NROTC scholarship. No academic issue, no honor issue, just cut and handed a bill.
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=27658

    This is not oh well, that is AF. This is Navy and money paid out. NROTC grads will go AD just like USNA. The Navy counted on them in their manpower planning.

    He is better off than either of those examples, but he needs to realize at this late of date, transferring to a college fall semester back at home are probably close to nil. His family life may be tense, and tenser yet if he is handed a bill from USNA that might equate to 1000 a month for 10 yrs.

    He may want to move on, but I think that is a knee jerk reaction. I would tell him to lurk here and read those threads. I bet it will be a reality wake up call about how he should approach it.

    Can he get a degree from another school by transferring credits? Yes! However, he also needs to realize even IS, living at home for 2 yrs will incur more debt. Like I said, chances are he will not be able to attend college next fall because the late date. Maybe Jan. You stated poor academics, that is another twist...typically grades matter for transferring credits too.

    Not asking, but when you say poor grades and honor violation, I immediately think academic issues...cheating, plagiarism. If that is the case than his academic future regarding transferring becomes a bigger issue.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  7. GreenArcher

    GreenArcher New Member

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    Sorry I mispoke. I meant to say that it was their fault and they took responsibility so to restate: I have a friend who has been separated from the Naval Academy as a 2/C for an Honor Offense. It is their first conduct/honor problem but their grades have never been good. Their parents know and want to appeal but the Midshipman partially wants to move on in their life, with or without their parents support. What choices do they have to get somewhere in their life?[/QUOTE]
     
  8. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    If the mid doesn't want to appeal, why bother?

    A true story from my day . . . a sibling of a fellow mid was a student at another SA. That individual did not want to be at a SA but felt he/she couldn't admit that to his/her parents. So, to get out of the situation, he/she intentionally committed an honor offense. And was separated. He/she was satisfied.

    I'm NOT saying this happened here, but if the mid doesn't want to be at USNA anymore -- for whatever reason -- her parents need to respect that decision. More importantly, she is an adult. If she doesn't want to partake of a lawsuit against USNA, her parents can't legally force her to proceed nor can they proceed on her behalf.

    As noted above, the financial implications of the discharge are a separate issue.
     
  9. LTSackett

    LTSackett Member

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    For What it's Worth

    Depending on how serious the honor offense was and why they joined the academy - they might want to consider doing the five years enlisted, if that's still an option. Especially if the offense doesn't preclude a high level security clearance. Someone with a good clearance who is bright enough to get into the USNA could probably do well in the Navy or the Corps as enlisted, or get out after five years and look for one of the many opportunities in the private sector for bright people with military training and secret or top secret clearances.
     
  10. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    "6 figures" seems a little excessive for leaving as a 2/c, as he would only have to pay for the one year, right?

    That option seems to have been taken off the table recently for involuntary disenrollment involving (honor or conduct offenses, but may be available for those who leave due to substandard academic performance.

    I do know of a CGA 1/c who recently disenrolled (voluntarily I believe) and took an enlisted rate.
     
  11. Hurricane12

    Hurricane12 USNA 2012

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    If I'm remembering correctly the sheet I clearly didn't read before signing the next 7-15 years of my life away quoted a payback figure of "up to" $96,000 (per discretion of the service) from 2/C year on. Not six figures, but close enough for govt work.

    I don't know of anyone allowed to enlist after getting kicked out for honor or conduct. This is fine by me: sending our problem children to the fleet as Enlisted or Officer never made a whole lot of sense to me.
    I know of only one (but I'm sure there's others) who enlisted after leaving USNA at all.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Luigi, I would assume they are a 2C, that would mean they had 3 yrs of education, quitting with only 1 academic yr left. Additionally as Hurricane pointed out they sign that paperwork stating as a 2C they can owe up to 96K.

    Granted 96K isn't 6 figures, but only 4K short. If the repayment is like NROTC, they will be charged interest too, thus when all is said and done, it will be 6 figures repaid.

    I also agree this is an honor code issue, not academics, does the Navy really want to have them? I see it for another reason to be a bad option. Morale. Do they really want someone that only took the route because it was the lesser of two evils and the best option for them personally?
     
  13. mhc123wc

    mhc123wc USNA 2015

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    Is this the person who lied about her height so that her weight would fall in regs? If so theres much more to this Mids history than "their grades have never been good" and "their first conduct/honor problem".
     
  14. Packer

    Packer Member

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    How the heck do you lie about your height? Seems to me you are measured.
     
  15. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Make sure your friend understands that they have many many choices to "get somewhere" in their life.

    The few years spent at the USNA do not define them, nor does leaving (voluntarily or involuntary) make them a bad person without options.

    Just be a good friend and help them make the right choices, give them advice financially and personally, to finish their education in their own chosen field, not following their parents desires. It's their life to live, and once they find a niche, something that they love to study, follow, work at, etc - they will be a much happier person. The military's not for everyone, even when the parents of that Mid think it's best.

    Yes, it's a shame they didn't leave earlier and not have the financial obligation (which still is not certain, it can get waived in some circumstances) but they still have many choices in their life. Help them understand that.

    Having them speak with a counselor may also be a good suggestion for them.
     
  16. jbsail

    jbsail Member

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    Yeah, how? It doesn't seem possible.
     
  17. mhc123wc

    mhc123wc USNA 2015

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    There was a mid who was CAT-V (over-weight) and added one inch to her height each week over the course of a certain number of weeks.
     
  18. Hurricane12

    Hurricane12 USNA 2012

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    ...What a winner. :rolleyes:

    To those questioning how this would happen: traditionally, one person takes your height/weight and you are responsible for reporting it to another mid (or staffer) sitting at a computer like three feet away. So it's not impossible, but at some point I'd imagine someone would notice and realize "there's no way this chick's 5'9"..."
     
  19. GreenArcher

    GreenArcher New Member

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    Ok, forget I asked or even started to ask a question on this forum. You guys are nothing but gossipers. Yes I'll admit some of you do your job and help people but some of you judge. Have you even been to a service academy? Or been in the military? It's not all sunshine and roses all the time. Have you seen the news lately? Sexual assaults are going through the roof. Are you going to judge those girls and guys who are claiming to have been assaulted? Are you going to just say they 'faked it for attention' or 'how much of a winner' they are? Yeah, I'm sure they really appreciate it. As for the chick who lied about her height, ok that was inexcusable and she probably deserves to be kicked out but for you guys to criticize and judge her online, how dare you. Maybe she felt pressured. The Academy is throwing people out left and right. What would you do if your kid made a bad choice and got kicked out? Would you want them torn to shreds online by people who don't know them? I'm sure they're already embarrassed and humiliated enough. Maybe they even decided to end their lives already. Does anyone remember Air Force last summer or Army? Death over dishonor, yeah seems like a bunch of words until the bodies pile up.
     
  20. Dixieland

    Dixieland Member

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    Good grief, if you don't want people's opinions, don't ask for them in a public forum!!

    It helps to lurk and get a sense of the tenor of an online community before joining and posting a question. Lots and lots of SA and ROTC grads, cadets, and parents, as well as current and retired members of the Armed Forces, are active members here so the information shared is top-notch. But of course you would have known that if you had visited us for any length of time.
     

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