Sexual Assaults

Something else to encourage the DDs with - hang with a good crowd. My female friends at USAFA who I spent a lot of time with and were a part of my friend group never had a fear in the world of sexual assault at USAFA. They always believed they were safe. When they were around us they were confident nothing would happen as we policed ourselves, but more importantly, we knew our limits and our manners regardless of alcohol levels. Second, they knew if ANYTHING threatened them or if they needed help that a call to us would bring help then and there. It was an active effort for all of us to create the best atmosphere in the world and I firmly believe we did. As an extension, our squadron's atmosphere followed suit. I knew of other squadrons that didn't - mainly because one of my female friends from that squadron tended to spend more time down in our rooms than in her own squadron's.

Like others, I never believe sexual assault can be rationalized by putting themselves in a bad situation. However, building friendships and networks with people who would never allow such things and would support them to the end if they needed help is a good way to ensure a female's experience as a cadet won't include sexual assault.
 
goldenlion I was disturbed by what I read. I'm sorry anyone would have to go through ANY of that.

While my class had the first court martialed CGA cadet... I know how a number of classmates would react if they walking in on the situation you described.

I've got my "heated" side, and it would be very hard to not (here comes a bad word) beat the living **** out of a guy who did that to one of my classmates.

I had a friend in an abusive relationship. We didn't know until she filed charges. I know a number of her classmates/friends offered to straighten the guy out. The legal system did it instead.

You mess with a classmate, a fellow cadet... in my eyes, you're messing with an extension of my family.

No one should go through that.
 
The case with the USMA girl was discussed this week very candidly. I will say that this young lady is probably going to be quite embarrassed if and when the facts are heard in court.

I was surprised that the most anger over the case and the TV report came from female cadets.

Scout, I think a great deal of the anger that comes from females at the Academy is the stigma that gets placed on all females based on cases like this. We're told that we're equal to the guys here and responsible for our actions, but the way the administration handles us is completely different than how our male counterparts are dealt with. For example, at the beginning of this year, they came out with this brilliant idea that all females whose roommates were gone would have to collapse into another girls' room for the night so that they weren't spending the night alone in their room. This despite the fact that doors have to be locked anyways at taps. At the initial upperclass outrage, they scaled it back to female plebes.

Now, few sensing sessions later and a lot of resentment, all plebes are required to do so, but its that kind of attitude where the administration treats the women as the victims first and creates policies to prevent the "victims" actions versus targeting the actual perpertrator's actions that causes a lot of hostility and cynicism to arise over things like this. I'm all for trying to make things safer and all that, but if you don't treat both genders equally with an equal sense of responsibility, you're setting women up with the mindset that they are not strong enough or smart enough to make decisions that will help them in their future as officers and dealing with the real world.



I struggle myself to not be cynical when it comes to the issue of sexual assault here. There is no excuse for rape and it can't ever get placed on the victim as being their fault. There have definitly been instances here which needed to be harshly dealt with.

What I think a lot of females here get made about though is the poor decisions that some of our fellow cadets make which make them more vulnerable to something serious actually happening. As soon as you add alcohol, bad things occur. On top of that, there's the stigma of how the majority of cases actually reported are fake and women trying to get men into trouble. This attitude makes a lot of the cadets here cynical and more prone to disbelief, creating that culture where reporting anything seriously would be hard.

To be honest, I'm not sure how you would fix something like this. The regulations are in place that if people followed them, a lot of the situations which occurred would never occur, but people aren't going to follow regs all the time and its not up to the Academy to constantly babysit us 24/7 if they expect us to be efficient leaders when we graduate who can deal with the real world. Changing the culture here is going to be hard. Hopefully it can happen. This particular case I don't think is necessarily going to gain the support of the Corps in that endeavour though just from its background. I admittedly have only heard things hearsay, but from what I've heard, its been enough to give some explanation why a lot of the guys don't take it seriously and see it as CNN targeting the Academy.


Also, quick aside, ChristCorps, I know that you may disagree, and I also think the way that CNN portrays both academys as a whole is not accurate, but it is quite possible to be existing in a culture which is much more boys' club (aka West Point) while still having opportunities for women coming out. Women here deal with boys being boys here all the time, be it from the sexual and other inappropriate comments, to the emphasis on how awesome the infantry is (to the point where even guys who don't want to go infantry can get looked down on) and the quick aside comments about how women aren't nearly as capable as men.

I've had seen some insanely hot debates where there are still people here who don't believe women should be serving in the military and their place is home back in the kitchen. Kind of an eye opening moment for me, but it just means that you have to grow a tougher skin and get over it. For every idiotic guy, there's another guy here who is willing to put aside gender and just serve with you as his teammate if you can pull your own weight. So while I think the academies have definitly found a lot of improvement since they were first opened, I still can understand the feeling that this place isn't necessarily the most embracing of women. That said, I think that's going to continue to change and I don't regret coming here at all. Its going to set me up nicely for my future.
 
goldenlion I was disturbed by what I read. I'm sorry anyone would have to go through ANY of that.

While my class had the first court martialed CGA cadet... I know how a number of classmates would react if they walking in on the situation you described.

I've got my "heated" side, and it would be very hard to not (here comes a bad word) beat the living **** out of a guy who did that to one of my classmates.

I had a friend in an abusive relationship. We didn't know until she filed charges. I know a number of her classmates/friends offered to straighten the guy out. The legal system did it instead.

You mess with a classmate, a fellow cadet... in my eyes, you're messing with an extension of my family.

No one should go through that.

Agreed 100%.
Also, I absolutely second what Hornet said. I never found myself around much trouble because of the friends I spent most of my time with. Choosing friends wisely is definitely a life skill!
 
Casey; I'm not disagreeing with you. Let me also emphasize again that I have not really made any comment; PRO or CON against the allegations at all. My posts have simply been about the "CNN article" posted, and the likelihood that we don't have all the facts about the case. What you are replying to in my post was the part of the CNN article; where I "QUOTE"

Annie Kendzior described herself as a "girly-girl" who never imagined she would end up in the military.... Kendzior was also an all-star student and one of the best high school soccer players in the country. She was recruited by Ivy League schools to play soccer, but she said the Naval Academy was more convincing....

"ALL of their graduates from the soccer team went on and became pilots and Marine officers," Kendzior said. "It just sounds like those women are so powerful and so well-respected, and I wanted to be that woman."

So in the fall of 2008, Kendzior headed off to Annapolis. She said her goal was to fly F-18s but it wasn't long after arriving at the academy she realized that wasn't going to happen.

That's where one of my problems (WITH THE ARTICLE) comes from. Either: A) CNN mis-quoted Annie and ALL of the female soccer players on the team DIDN'T go on to be pilots and Marine officers..... Or; B) Annie exaggerated and for whatever reason "SHE" felt that she wouldn't have this opportunity. Either way, the article makes it sound like these opportunities weren't available because of a bias against females. If only a couple on the team got these opportunities, I'd say they were "Token" and there is a major problem. But when Annie herself is quoted as saying that ALL the females on the soccer team became pilots and/or Marine officers...... Well, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

And that's the main point of my posts. Not to say that they were or weren't raped. Not to say that the academies do or don't handle allegations properly. Simply to say..... "Don't trust CNN or any other media". We don't have all the facts. It's OK to have opinions, but don't TRY, CONVICT, and SENTENCE based on an article by a company with specific motives and an agenda for what they print. (Not just CNN; all of them). Their motive is NOT to provide you with the truth. Their motive and objective is create the right amount of sensationalism and emotion to attract more subscribers so that they can gain more profit.
 
goldenlion I was disturbed by what I read. I'm sorry anyone would have to go through ANY of that.

While my class had the first court martialed CGA cadet... I know how a number of classmates would react if they walking in on the situation you described.

I've got my "heated" side, and it would be very hard to not (here comes a bad word) beat the living **** out of a guy who did that to one of my classmates.

I had a friend in an abusive relationship. We didn't know until she filed charges. I know a number of her classmates/friends offered to straighten the guy out. The legal system did it instead.

You mess with a classmate, a fellow cadet... in my eyes, you're messing with an extension of my family.

No one should go through that.

Well stated sir. That is the best part of my job. Getting some measure of payback for the victim. My favorite line? "The next time you see my smiling face you are going to jail, we can stop at the hospital on the way if you like, and then on to Huntsville. (state prison) Just wait until your bunkmates find out what you did to get sent there. You are going to be REAL popular. See you soon!"

Goldenlion - thank you for the courage to tell your story. You are in our thoughts.
 
Christcorp,

You seem to really have an issue with her statement that all the Soccer players went on to become pilots or marine officers. You realize that she made this comment prior to starting the USNA and she was referring to previous classes. She never claims how many became pilots, could have been only one, and as far as the others commissioning, isn't that the point of the USNA, wether or not these previous women had any issues at the academy isn't talked about.

I really doubt every women at the academies are sexually assaulted, but that doesn't mean it could not have happened to this women, other women becoming pilots or commissioned really doesn't have much to do with that.
 
Christcorp,

You seem to really have an issue with her statement that all the Soccer players went on to become pilots or marine officers. You realize that she made this comment prior to starting the USNA and she was referring to previous classes. She never claims how many became pilots, could have been only one, and as far as the others commissioning, isn't that the point of the USNA, wether or not these previous women had any issues at the academy isn't talked about.

I really doubt every women at the academies are sexually assaulted, but that doesn't mean it could not have happened to this women, other women becoming pilots or commissioned really doesn't have much to do with that.

Sorry; but she specifically said (According to CNN) that "ALL of their graduates from the soccer team went on and became pilots and Marine officers," Kendzior said. "It just sounds like those women are so powerful and so well-respected, and I wanted to be that woman."

I'm simply saying that this is one of MANY inconsistencies in the CNN report. You can interpret it any way you like. I interpret it the way it is written. If you think that you have ALL of the information and facts needed; based on the media reports; and you can give a factual and unbiased opinion of the situation, then you are definitely a very insightful and knowledgeable person. Much better than me and most others that I know. Me personally; I don't have enough facts and I question the validity and quality of the "Information" provided by the media. But hey; what the hell do I know. Just my opinion.

Then again; that's always been my opinion on just about EVERY article put on the forums that open up for debate. Doesn't matter if it's about rape, drug use, assaults, navy QB's resigning, gays quitting, etc... Some people believe that they can read a media article; have faith that it's truthful and unbiased; and that they have all the information needed to make an informed opinion. I don't. My opinion will continue to be that most times there isn't enough information and facts provided to have such opinions.
 
Christcorp,

Oh believe me, I have very little faith in how our current news media churns out their information, I don't really care from what side of the political spectrum they are from, I am always skeptical.

I was just saying that I didn't believe the comment, which in my experience could have easily been taken out of context, was that much of an issue.

Having been quoted in news articles before, I would later read them and wonder just who they were talking to when they printed the quotes.

I certanly don't mean to argue with you, I actually agree with you more then you might think.
 
Christcorp,

Oh believe me, I have very little faith in how our current news media churns out their information, I don't really care from what side of the political spectrum they are from, I am always skeptical.

I was just saying that I didn't believe the comment, which in my experience could have easily been taken out of context, was that much of an issue.

Having been quoted in news articles before, I would later read them and wonder just who they were talking to when they printed the quotes.

I certanly don't mean to argue with you, I actually agree with you more then you might think.

No problem. And if that was the ONLY remark that I questioned, I'd probably give the benefit of the doubt. But I listed 5 inconsistencies right off the bat. There are other comments/quotes that I also find suspect. Bottom line: That article doesn't provide enough information to make an informed decision or opinion on. There's more to the story. later... All is cool. Mike....
 
Just out of curiosity for those that say it is 15 mins of fame, and they were not raped, is your position that not one female at an SA right now was not raped by cadet?

For me that is a factor as a Mom of a DD. If you do not acknowledge it occurs you can't fix the problem. Kind of like an alcoholic not acknowledging they are an alcoholic.

What bothers me more on this thread is the fact that there are lurkers and posters with DD's.

Yes, the media has their goal, but if you read your posts, many are also judging these two girls without the real facts, just the facts that the media has released, and their interpretation.

Want to know why women do not report rape? That's the reason, some of these posts are the reason.

Do any of us know if these victims are posters or lurkers here? What about if 1 member/lurker cadet/mid was raped and saw some of these posts? Do you believe she would tell anyone, or do you believe she would shut up because from some posts here she put herself in that situation?

As a woman, I would shut up!

To lurkers/posters of DD's our girl is 5'1 and 110 lbs. Tiny by all standards. However, as a wife and a Mom (AF) I believe that the military is filled with a lot of Raimius, Eagle, Hornet, Scout and LITS where they would step up to the plate and place their own career in jeopardy to protect the girl.

If a parent is in fear of guys at the SA, no offense to goldenlion, take faith in her comment.

I never reported it or told anyone because I thought it was part of the training. However, someone else must have witnessed it and did report it. To this day, I still don't know who assaulted me or reported it. I was called into the OSI several times and questioned. I couldn't identify the person.

She didn't report it, someone else stepped up to the plate, placed their name on the line to report the crime. He cared enough about the girls to make sure nobody else would endure the pain goldenlion did.

If you know SERE and calculate back, it was a HE at SERE that reported the crime.

There are many sad things regarding this situation, but at the end of the day, I would trust my DD's life at any SA.
 
Pima, that's cause your DD would rip the balls off of any guy that crossed her.
 
What do they mean the military ignores allegation or doesn't take them seriously? I recently finished a 3 hour SHARP training course, had 2 half day training classes (LDAC/CTLT) this summer, clockwork bi-annual briefs, Friday safety briefs and a few in-class discussions all within a year. In the spectrum of what cadets need to be learning I would say that's a decent chunk of mandatory time. This doesn't even include all the training ER SA modules and on-campus prevention classes (15 hours more)....
 
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For the ex cadet, it's entirely possible that her story is true, but...I'm going to need to see more proof than he said/she said for me to buy it. She wasn't exactly an angel.

The other one, I don't know anything about, but the BPD diagnosis seems a little weird.
 
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"Just out of curiosity for those that say it is 15 mins of fame, and they were not raped, is your position that not one female at an SA right now was not raped by cadet?"

That is a gross mischaracterization of the discussion here. No one has said she wasn't raped. What has been expressed is some skepticism of both girls' stories and an impression that the facts that they have presented have some gray areas. As for judging on what the media has released, no, my judging has been based on the actual complaint. The complaint is the version of facts that the plaintiffs say is the basis for compensatory and punitive damages.

No one has been flippant or downplayed the seriousness of sexual assault. But false accusations are every bit as serious and they are also real. I do think there are some odd and troubling aspects to the stories that make me skeptical, or at least questioning. These girls could have brought civil actions against their alleged assailants but they didn't (at least, I assume they didn't). Instead, a law firm with a certain agenda appears to be using them as a vehicle to make a splash and try to further that agenda. I think the lawyers are more concerned about the narrative they want to promote than they are of their actual clients. And, like it or not, the accusers' credibility-- about the alleged assaults and then subsequent alleged non-response at the academies--- is a huge issue. And it should be.

I am sure that reporting a sexual assault is a difficult thing. I can't imagine though that anyone reading here would be dissuaded in reporting a rape because of anything written here. The reality is that the accused has a presumption of innocence and the credibility of the accuser and the accused are critical--especially in a "he said- she said" situation where the accused will probably claim consensual sex and there is no physical evidence. That's just the real world. I think any woman at a service academy can deal with those facts.
 
Just out of curiosity for those that say it is 15 mins of fame, and they were not raped, is your position that not one female at an SA right now was not raped by cadet?


That is probably the worst strawman that I have ever seen. Nobody's arguing that, and I have my doubts that anyone would.

Unless, of course, you are arguing that not one female at a Service Academy has ever made a false accusation of rape by a cadet?
 
It's a tricky line. No matter who you "blame" or don't blame you could get burned.

Duke lacrosse can attest to that. So can rape victims.
 
I have a DD going through the SA application process and I have a son at an academy - goldenlion's post scares the begeezus out of me. Thank you for posting and I am so sorry that you were assaulted not just once, but several times and that you couldn't receive the medical and emotional support you likely needed because of the social issues you readily acknowledge.

When the current story broke, I had my daughter read the article (first appeared in businessweek a few weeks before CNN's coverage I think). When I asked her for her reaction, she commented that these situations likely happen as often at civilian campuses and that to be safe, it's just stupid to drink. Ah, to be an invincible 17 year old. My son's perspective, when asked point blank if it's safe for his sister to attend his academy, is that it is safe - that he's never seen or heard first hand of situations like these - and that people make really stupid decisions when they drink.

I would love to know the support systems in place for women - especially for women who are not corps sport athletes. I think, like hornet, that choosing good friends and having that support is key. But it does give a mom pause to consider the possibility of having an especially beloved DD voluntarily attend a school and enter a career where women may still be vocally considered second class (per Casey's posts) and where "trou" is still a spoken word and accepted reference. I am supporting her decision wholeheartedly - but it does give me pause.
 
Trou is also short for trousers.... or uniform pants, so if you hear if coming from the CGA.... that's what it's referring to.

I live in Alexandria, Va. There is a fairly nasty area near a McDonalds on Route 1. The kind of area that has police cars, with lights on, at night, and during the day guys hanging out on their porches (when everyone else is working)...

I don't walk through that neighborhood. If I did, I don't think it would be justified to be harassed or jumped or robbed. No, the people that would do that would be dead beats. That said.... I'm not going to put myself in that situation. I could. I could take the chance. If I got jumped it wouldn't be MY fault, but I certainly wouldn't have helped myself out at all.

Every cadet and midshipman knows the right things and wrong things to do. Drinking with upperclassmen in the barracks.... never leads to good things (that's not saying it leads to rape).

99% of cadets and midshipmen don't accept this kind of action. You (or at least my class) get pretty protective of each other.
 
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