pilot2b
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2011
- Messages
- 357
Oh whatever. That'll really convince an 18-year-old.
By that logic, speed limits shouldn't be in place because people will speed anyway. Or violate just about any other law in place.
Oh whatever. That'll really convince an 18-year-old.
Oh whatever. That'll really convince an 18-year-old.
Not any more - new guidelines have just been released by Sec Panettatpg,
NCIS does do the investigating (generally), but should the Sexual Assault be referred to a GCM, the investigating officer for the Article 32 hearing, makes a recommendation (along with the SJA) to the FOGO. He/she can choose how to proceed. So therefore, while the investigation might be handled outside the military chain-of-command, the ultimate decision to pursue legal action is within.
Can't help to think of the Lamar Owens case and the military judges blast on the Superintendent's email to All Hands at USNA, for partial undue command influence.
All the posts, threads, and comments about the honor code and how important it is, and you condone breaking the law. Yea, that's the message I want sent to our future military leaders. At least be consistent and say right now that the honor code is crappy, and laws don't really matter. I can respect that opinion. I don't have to agree with it, but I can respect it. But hypocracy I can't.
... @pilot2b: Speed limits exist. You know it. Do you speed? Of course you do. So much for that whole "it's against the law" argument preventing people from bad behavior. I didn't say the law shouldn't be in place. But that clearly does not dissuade huge numbers of underage college students from drinking.
What I was commenting on was your implied statement that the laws against underage drinking were pointless because a teenager will ignore them. Of course that's possible. But just because a handful of people will ignore the law doesn't mean that everyone will. Your statement reflects an incredibly cynical attitude that is just not totally accurate.
Believe it or not, not everyone is doing it.
Christcorp said:Even your 26% number implies that most don't drink illegally.
You imply that the majority of cadets 17-20 WILL illegally drink underage. I say illegally, because in many states if the youth is at home under the supervision of their parent, they are legally allowed to drink. But based on this thread, you're implying that most of the cadets are illegally drinking under age. I find that pretty disrespectful. Even your 26% number implies that most don't drink illegally.
Tell you what. You teach your kids what you want to and I'll teach mine what I want to. But in an environment such as the military academies, where honor, truth, integrity, etc... are suppose to mean something, forgive me if I don't share your pessimistic beliefs. Will some under 21 drink illegally? Yes. That doesn't mean that you condone it because "They're going to do it anyway". Believe it or not, not everyone is doing it.
Which you certainly know as a high school student with much experience in the ways of college drinking, correct? You can call it a handful if you like, but according to SADD, 26.4% of Americans from ages 12-20 drank in the last 30 days. That's the biggest "handful" on earth. Think about that. One in four kids between 12-20. Huge numbers.
Thanks for your insight.
Honor Code (at least at USAFA): We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does.
Drinking underage is not an honor code violation since you aren't lying, stealing, or cheating. Just like speeding is not a violation or going AWOL or fraternizing.
Now if someone asks you if you have alcohol in your room and you lie to them, then that is an Honor Code violation. Or if someone ask you how old you are before they give you alcohol and you lie about your age to get the alcohol that will also be a violation.
Too often on this forum, posters believe that every time a cadet does something against regs, that they are breaking the honor code. This is not true! Every year, several cadets graduate that are triple centurions (someone who marched over 300 tours for breaking the regs) but they haven't broken the honor code. They just break the regs a lot!
Unless things have changed, you won't find triple centurions at USMA. .
there are no heads in the sand here. We all know that people bend rules, laws, codes, etc... Your position however seems to be irresponsible.
"Kids are going to do it anyway, so don't tell them that it's wrong"
"Kids are going to do it anyway, so tell them to just be safe doing it".
Goldenlion; I never said that underage drinking was against the honor code. What I said was that there is such an emphasis on the honor code and how important it is; yest Scout thinks underage drinking, which is against the law, isn't so important because the kids will do it anyway. Obeying a "law" is much more important than an "Honor Code".
I think the "Head in the sand" is believing that "Kids will do it anyway; so there's no reason to discuss why they shouldn't do it. In other words, tell the 15 year old to use a condom because they're going to do it anyway. Don't teach them abstinence. Tell them to make sure they don't drive while drinking, but don't tell them that drinking is against the law.
Whether a <21 year old is going to drink or not, a parent and leader still has the responsibility to teach them to obey the law. Whether they do or not is their responsibility. But neglecting your responsibility because "They're going to do it anyway" is B.S.
In other words, tell the 15 year old to use a condom because they're going to do it anyway. Don't teach them abstinence. Tell them to make sure they don't drive while drinking, but don't tell them that drinking is against the law.
Does anyone remember the "Honor Code". I think they all recognize that the above referenced incidents might be a violation unless they are sleeping during the briefings.
Not a bad treatise.
http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE99/Navy99.html
Moral Turpitude might come into the equation