Sports

It is true, they don't ALL have to be football captains, nor should they be.

But don't think that a kid who can't run five miles or lift him/herself to the chin up bar, nor do 100 situps, will be welcomed with open arms because he can blow a trumpet. It would be required that he can ALSO blow a trumpet.
 
So using the information above from the class profiles, the % of the last 3 classes to get admitted without a Varsity Sport is:

2015: 8.4%
2016: 9.5%
2017: 8%

This is obviously a very small percentage. Don't you think that most that get in without varsity sport are superstar academic types (1400 SATs) or URM applicants that didn't have time for sports b/c they had to work the farm and raise their siblings in order for their family to survive?
 
JMPO, but runner2020 I think you should realize two things.

1. You cannot tell intonation via a post.
2. Many posters have been here long enough to see a pattern, and their posts are trying to illustrate the reality.
~ See point #1.

Yes, there are cadets every year that get appointed without a sport, but let's also remember that sports matter. As Buff stated, sports show commitment Sports illustrate that even if your FB team gets creamed week after week and have an 0 and 8 record, come Friday you are going to give it your all to be 1 and 8. Sports shows camaraderie. Sports show leadership.
~ These are all things SAs look at for future leaders.

Sports also show athletic abilities. PT is going to be part of their life. Hence, the way to get over this is hit the CFA out of the ball park.

I don't believe any poster was trying to be negative. I see it as they were supportive and discussing the reality of getting an appointment without sports. It is doable, but that CFA and PAR needs to be top notch.

In the end it is a WCS, and that is how you get appointed. There will be that Golf athlete that scores lower than the band member when it comes to CFA.

OBTW, maybe it is just me, but I did not see any of these remarks as harsh. I saw them as realistic and actually kind. On avg 5% of cadets will leave during Beast. Their life is not going to be roses during that period. It is going to be pile on regarding how much you all s*ck! Welcome to the military!

I didn't mean to come off as rude or naive, and that's not my intent. The only comments I believed to be inappropriate were Spud's- everyone else had great advice. I just felt that his remarks were pretty harsh for a basic question, and the OP didn't deserve the sarcasm that was handed out. So I do apologize if my post was rude at all! I didn't mean it to be.

I personally do multiple varsity sports a year, love running (obviously!), and am definitely more focused on athletics then band. I just felt that particular post was harsh, and that in general, he was getting negative responses. That's fine, but he hasn't even replied to the topic yet, and the OP's getting an onslaught of posts saying his chances. It'll hurt him to not have varsity sports, and I realize people on here have years of experience, but he could be the 8% case that receives an appointment, and I think it'd be better for everyone to give him advice (ie. join a sport now, retake CFA, etc) instead of just saying band was a bad decision. There's not much he can do about it now.

Chances are, OP loves band (seeing how invested he is in it). I hate the idea of anyone feeling bad about making the decision to do something they're very passionate about, especially if he ends up not receiving an appointment this year.

I think you all gave some great advice, and I agree with it! I'm just giving my own opinion, and whether I'm being too sensitive or not, that's what a forum like this is all about and I'm sticking to it.

Good luck with your application! :smile:
 
Actually, Runner, Spud's analysis was pretty much spot on. Not sugar coated enough for you? Maybe... but Spud nailed it.
 
Is not doing sports a killer? I played football freshman year, but decided to stick with band. Academics are well above average, CFA is solid, attended SLE...any clues?


This being the OP's question, and this being one of the responses:


With that much physical activity ahead of you, there is certainly no hurry to get started on it, is there? Surely the Admissions Board will recognize such brilliant long range thinking and give you an appointment over your competition who has proven they can work in a very physical teamwork environment for years.

That's what I define as "uncalled for". I agree the information was right, but an adult commenting on a 17 year old's question in that context is immature and unnecessary. There's a difference between "sugar coating" and disagreeing about how he blatantly implies OP thinks these things.

I hate having to defend my opinion because I know you, PIMA, etc. are very respected on the board, and I've seen very helpful posts by you in the past, but I'm sticking to what I originally said. I believe the delivery was inappropriate, not necessarily the ideas behind it.




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To add one more thing, I have spoken with a member of the admission's committee here, and she said that the 30% leadership pillar is further broken down into 15% leadership in activities and extra curricular, and 15% in sports/athletics. So, even though I did band and chorus all 4 years of high school in addition to being captain of the tennis team, the way West Point ranks each category is on a scale from 200 to 800, much like the SAT. Therefore, even though I am an Eagle Scout and went to Boy's State, together both of those only impacted 15% of my application. Whereas for the 15% for athletics, my number was much lower, around 650 out of 800, because my sport was not a team sport, and we did not win state. Team sports reign supreme at the academies, and if you want to score as many points as possible for that 15% of your WCS, you have to be on a sport's team where you can show leadership in a team setting, because that is exactly what the military is. That's why everyone here has to play a team sport during MacArthur's time (1600-1800) if they are not on a corps or club squad team. I will not pretend to have insight on how admissions looks at you if you do not play a sport, but based on these percentages and point allotment, I can tell you that unfortunately in West Point's eyes, my switching to a team sport from an individual sport like tennis would have earned me more WCS points than my attending Boy's State, since I had already earned my Eagle Scout, and the score was already high for that category.
 
Runner2020

1. We are treading very close to this thread being locked...calling out posters like Spud and making it personal.

See my earlier post regarding intonation .

Look if you were sitting in a room and having this conversation face to face, may be feathers would not be ruffled.

2. Sorry, but as harsh as he was he did give a benefit to you. You fought back! Grew a thicker skin
~ Nobody is going to coddle you or give an arse about you feel. It is going to be shut up and color that first year at USMA. It will be repeated again when you at an O1.

3.JMPO, but if any poster can make you or anyone question your chance, than I am sorry the fat lady is about to sing impo.
~ You want an appointment? Nobody on an anonymous forum should be able to dissuade you! You should say screw you and your opinion!

It is interesting that the OP left the room.
~ OBTW, the OP has a thread about their CFA results...do you think maybe Spud saw that first and that is why they responded the way they did?

Just saying and with $1.98 you can a cup of coffee that posters did not see it the same way as you. They saw what Spud was saying ,..physical strength matters.
 
To add one more thing, I have spoken with a member of the admission's committee here, and she said that the 30% leadership pillar is further broken down into 15% leadership in activities and extra curricular, and 15% in sports/athletics.

I am pretty sure School official evaluations are part of the leadership WCS, so not likely to be 15%/15% break down.
 
I so love the internet. You want to know how the scoring breaks down? Read the following study at the Naval Postgraduate School on selection factors at West Point. Appendix B is what you want. Then do the math, math is important.

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA583467

COMMUNITY LEADER SCORE (CLS)
CLS: (EX+ AT+ FAS) / 3
EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES SCORE (EX): A score reflecting a candidate's
participation in activities outside required school curricula awarded in accordance with the
following guidelines:
800: An outstanding young person with quadruple participation or honors and awards on
selected extracurricular activities (each worth 600 or more points).
700:
(1) Student Council President;
(2) Triple participation or honors and awards in selected extracurricular activities (each
worth 600 points);
(3) Participation in Boys/Girls Nation;
(4) JROTC Regimental/Brigade Commander or Civil Air Patrol Spaatz Award winner;
(5) Decoration for valor [Soldiers);
(6) Ranger or Special Forces tab [Soldiers].
600:
(1) High-school Class President;
(2) Editor-in-chief of a school publication;
(3) Participation in Boys/Girls State, President of National Honor Society, or recipient of a
National or State award;
(4) Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts) or Gold Award (Girl Scouts);
(5) Triple participation or honors and awards in selected extracurricular activities (each
worth 500 points)
(6) Earhart/ Mitchell Award;
(7) Combat Infantryman Badge; Combat Action Badge; Combat Medical Badge
[Soldiers];
(8) Soldier's Medal [Soldiers];
(9) Soldier of the Year-brigade-level or higher [Soldiers];
(10) Division-level In-Service Recruiting Program [Soldiers].

500:
(1) Holder of one or more elective offices in moderately selective organizations;
(2) Participation in activities or recipient of awards in moderately selective organizations;
(3) Holder of a private pilot's license;
(4) EMT/EMS or Volunteer Firefighter;
(5) National Honor Society VP/Treasurer or Secretary;
(6) Civil Air Patrol officer/ 1SG;
(7) Combat veteran of three or more months in theater [Soldiers];
(8) Expert Infantryman Badge or Expert Field Medical Badge [Soldiers];
(9) Meritorious Service Medal [Soldiers];
(10) Distinguished Honor Graduate of Army school [Soldier];
(11) Soldier of the Quarter—brigade-level or higher [Soldiers].
400:
(1) Participation in activities or recipient of awards in organizations with limited selectivity;
(2) Non-commissioned officer (Soldiers];
(3) Squad Leader or Platoon Guide [Soldiers];
(4) 90-day-plus OCONUS tour [Soldiers];
(5) Army Commendation Medal [Soldiers];
(6) Master Fitness Trainer [Soldiers];
(7) Honor Graduate of an Army school [Soldiers];
(8) PLDC graduate [Soldiers];
(9) BOSS Representative [Soldiers].
300:
(1) Some participation in organized activities;
(2) Army Achievement Medal or Good Conduct Medal [Soldiers].
200: No participation in organized activities.
ATHLETIC ACTIVITIES SCORE (AT): A score reflecting a candidate's athletic
participation awarded in accordance with the following guidelines:
800: An outstanding athlete (All-American, First team All-Area selection in
baseball/softball, basketball or football) and either Athletic rating of 1 or 2 in the sport in
which honors are received or CFA score > 650.
700:
(1) First-team All-Area selection in a single sport (other than baseball/softball, basketball
or football);
(2) Captain of baseball/softball, basketball, or football team;
(3) Team captain in two or more sports (other than baseball/softball, basketball or
football) for class size over 100); and
(4) Ranger or Special Forces tab [Soldiers].
600:
(1) Captain of team (other than baseball/softball, basketball, or football);
(2) Varsity letter in baseba11/softba11, basketball, or football; and
(3) Varsity letter in two or more sports (other than baseball/softball, basketball, or
football).
500:
(1) Varsity letter in a single sport (other than baseball/softball, basketball, or football); and
(2) Expert Infantryman Badge, Expert Field Medical Badge, Jumpmaster, or Presidential
Fitness award [Soldiers].

400:
(1) Participation in a varsity sport (no letter);
(2) Graduate of Airborne, Air Assault, Pathfinder, or comparable other _Army school
[Soldiers]; and
(3) Maximum score on Army Physical Fitness Test [Soldiers].
300:
(1) Participation in junior-varsity and other team sports (not intramurals); and
(2) Soldier status.
200: No participation and no evidence of interest in sports

FACULTY APPRAISAL SCORE (FAS): The average of the candidate's scores on the
School Official Evaluation (SOE) of Candidate Forms (DD Form 1869) on a scale of 40
740.
 
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I see something else in that too, oldcorpsdad, that interests me.....proof that West Point values Boys/Girls State as much as Eagle Scout. That's what my grad's MALO told him and when I have said that here, there is much consternation from the Scout people.

(3) Participation in Boys/Girls State, President of National Honor Society, or recipient of a
National or State award;
(4) Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts) or Gold Award (Girl Scouts);
 
So using the information above from the class profiles, the % of the last 3 classes to get admitted without a Varsity Sport is:

2015: 8.4%
2016: 9.5%
2017: 8%

You really can't draw conclusions from these statistics unless you know the characteristics of the overall applicant population. Service academies may draw a disproportionate share of varsity athlete applicants. If the percentage of the underlying applicant pool with varsity letters is 90 percent of thereabouts, the above statistics would suggest that not having a varsity sport is not particularly disadvantageous. Then again, I'm also making assumptions on the underlying applicant pool.
 
While stats & percentages are always the subject of much discussion on here and can be interpreted in various ways, the fact of the matter is that being physically fit is a HUGE part of what it takes to do well at a service academy and the military in general. This is not the place for a couch potato even if they ace their ACT/SAT scores, it just doesn't work that way. I don't know of ANY civilian college where that would be true.

Passing the CFA is just the start. Everyone is expected to maintain a certain level of physical fitness and you can be separated from the academy is you do not. If you don't already have a regular workout routine, don't see much value in physical fitness, daily exercise....etc...............you will definitely be at a disadvantage with your peers (assuming you even get an appointment) once you are part of the program.

The 10% without a varsity sport and associated physical fitness conditioning this involves, will still be expected to keep up with their peers, regardless of whatever else their background is from h.s.
 
Time2, what you say is no doubt correct. I just don't want people who don't have a varsity letter to think they can't get accepted to or make it at a service academy. I know quite a few varsity athletes who did not do well in the CFA. It's not a guarantee of anything. Unfortunately, in a lot of places, varsity letters have become essentially "participation trophies" that do not reflect an athlete's overall level of commitment or skill in his/her respective sport.

On the other hand, service academies need musicians also, which many people forget. So as long as they are able to meet and maintain standards, there should be no "stigma" for not having a varsity letter.
 
Thank you for all this input. I feel like just saying I do band makes everyone think I'm unathletic, that is not true. My first CFA was no where near great, but the only event i didnt beat average was pullups. Ill have You know that I went from 2 to 15 in the past three weeks. And I know this is going to sound like a excuse of a sport, but I have played inline hockey for about 10 years through my park district. I wish I stuck with football, but west point was not completely on my mind as a freshman. Thank you again, and if you feel the need to bash my choices, go for it.
 
Thank you again, and if you feel the need to bash my choices, go for it.

I know some advice has come across as harsh, but it isn't just advice for you but for many others in the future that read this thread. Think of the 8th grader that has always wanted to go to USMA, but has to make a decision in 9th grade between continuing band and playing basketball. The advice on this thread may provide them some very useful guidance.

Would this thread have helped you if you were in 8th or 9th grade?

Feel good about your choices and feel good about starting a thread that will help others in the future.
 
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