Still not sure about a couple things...

[ProspectiveCandidate12]

I had the same thought fencer. Plus, back in the day when Bullet jumped with the 82nd, he jumped far more often out of an airforce plane than out of an Army helo.

Go Army if you want helos, AF has them too, but at a much smaller amount. Raimius flies helos for the AF. However, if you want fixed wing than you are better off going with the AF.

That brings back in the USMMA again. I believe a couple of years ago the AF was not giving any rated out of the USMMA because they had enough pilots already in their pipeline.

Right. I'm glad everyone here is reaffirming my already good outlook on the MMA. I like the freedom of choice and the ability to commission or to serve on a merchant ship. Do you have to commit to a commission at the MMA? If so, when? Near graduation? Upon arrival? When is it that I have decide what specific branch I join and how does the choosing of MOS take place? Are the winners of more competitive MOS's chosen based on academics?

 

[raimius]

At USAFA, each cadet is measured via GPA, PEA (physical education avg), and MPA (military performance avg). Each of these scores goes into a weighted average to determine class ranking. GPA is the most weighted, then MPA, and PEA (although I don't remember if PEA or MPA was weighted more).
There is also a form where cadets can have several bullets written for them, and that will be reviewed by a board that will take that and their weighted composite and rank everyone. Each cadet submits a "dream sheet" for their career choices. The AF then looks at what its requirements are, what the cadets asked for on their "dream sheets," and how they ranked to determine who gets what AFSC. This generally occurs late during junior year (timing may have changed).

 

[NavyHoops]

Right. I'm glad everyone here is reaffirming my already good outlook on the MMA. I like the freedom of choice and the ability to commission or to serve on a merchant ship. Do you have to commit to a commission at the MMA? If so, when? Near graduation? Upon arrival? When is it that I have decide what specific branch I join and how does the choosing of MOS take place? Are the winners of more competitive MOS's chosen based on academics?

Yes, a commission is required:

• Graduates can choose to work five years in the United States maritime industry with eight years of service as an officer in any reserve unit of the armed forces.

• Or five years active duty in any of the nation’s armed forces.

Take a look at some of the threads within the USMMA forum addressing active duty options. I don't believe it is as easy, "I want to go fly planes in the USAF" and then it magically happens. Look at the old threads and there are many factors; needs of each service, performance, etc. From what I have gathered there is a path to being commissioned upon graduation, but there is coordination, applying and being selected involved. As far as timelines I think they put their preference in senior year, but I suspect if you want to go Marine Corps or another service there is/could be training that is needed in summers earlier on. I am sure kpengineer or another grad will jump in.

Choosing your MOS, Branch, Service Selection would depend on what service you end up in. The Marine Corps you do not get an MOS until 1/2 through TBS. Air Force you would know career field prior to graduating, same with Navy service selection and Army branch. All kinds of factors come into play when selecting branches, etc. Academics tend to be a huge part of them traditionally. Have to defer to some of the grads to give specifics on exactly when Mids are notified of approval to commission and service assignments.

 

[Pima]

Why are you admitting defeat before the battle starts?

Didn't mean for it to come across that way, I was simply acknowledging that infantry is a tough get and that I understood that. I'm willing to work hard- I really hope no one feels that I am looking for an easy route. When I said that I didn't care about what branch I join, I meant that I wasn't gung-ho marines or gung-ho army. I do have a preference to which job I do (I would much rather be a pilot in the AF rather than a communications officer, much like I would rather be an infantry officer in the army than a military judge).

A couple of things.

1. I think you misread my aspect about the USMMA.
~ I clearly stated that yes, you can commission AF, but there is no guarantee that you will get rated. NavyHoops also reiterated that there have been years
~~ AF may say that between USAFA, AFROTC and OCS they have enough pilots for your year group and they can say we need you to go Missileers. AFROTC cadets find out in their junior year if they are going rated. So by the time you come up if it is your senior year. HQ AF knows how many more they need. There have eeven been years where they canceled the rated OCS board because they did not need more pilots.

2. Read Raimius blog about UPT
~ Statistically when you add in IFS, T6, and tracking you will see @50% of your classmates be asked to leave during those 15 months. You will be managing a desk in all likelihood.
~~ Wing and you will owe 9 more years of your life and be able to leave @33 (many kids wait 6-9 months to start IFS. clock starts at winging =10+ years)

3. I think USMMA is a great institution, but it is really sea oriented. You have to do that year at sea, and from the old threads that I have read, that year is very difficult.

As others have stated chose the lifestyle you want upon commissioning and that means whatever they decide you will have. There are so many kids that at your age state they want to be a pilot. However, the reality is they will be the minority. Wanting a specific airframe can even be a harder get. The kids that are at UPT starting class of 15-13 entered almost a year ago believing that they would fly a plane, worse case scenario would be a T1 FAIP. Now they have been informed that every base for every class in the foreseeable future will be dropping 2 RPA slots. The needs of the AF wins.

Just saying if the idea of becoming a Missileer or an Air Battle Manager gives you the shakes than maybe the AF life is not for you.

 

[raimius]

2. Read Raimius blog about UPT
~ Statistically when you add in IFS, T6, and tracking you will see @50% of your classmates be asked to leave during those 15 months. You will be managing a desk in all likelihood.
~~ Wing and you will owe 9 more years of your life and be able to leave @33 (many kids wait 6-9 months to start IFS. clock starts at winging =10+ years)

Wash out rates aren't quite that high. I think we lost 10-20% each between IFS and T6s. Probably about a 30% total rate, by my guess.

 

[USAFretired1996]

With respect to USMMA, I remember reading a thread last spring where a current midshipman stated he wasn’t aware of a single person being commissioned into the AF from the last several MMA graduating classes. I wouldn’t go there thinking that an AF commission is a slam dunk. In the current environment, I think the AF can get a full supply of officer accessions from AFA, ROTC and OTS without the need for USMMA.

 

[Pima]

2. Read Raimius blog about UPT
~ Statistically when you add in IFS, T6, and tracking you will see @50% of your classmates be asked to leave during those 15 months. You will be managing a desk in all likelihood.
~~ Wing and you will owe 9 more years of your life and be able to leave @33 (many kids wait 6-9 months to start IFS. clock starts at winging =10+ years)

Wash out rates aren't quite that high. I think we lost 10-20% each between IFS and T6s. Probably about a 30% total rate, by my guess.

Raimius,

DS lost 25% at IFS. Started with 28, 21 graduated. His and fencers DS class T6 started with 28 and 21 tracked. They added back in 7 wash backs for his T1/T38 phase and 21 winged. For his friends out of AFROTC, they too had about 50% that winged. He was the only one at Laughlin, the rest were at Vance and Columbus. His groomsmen washed out 4 weeks prior to winging.

I have to admit some of the stories he told me made me shake my cranium in wonderment
~ One guy at IFS washed out before ever getting up in the air. failed the boldface right off the bat.
~ One guy was washed back because he failed his PT test.
~ One girl washed out because she argued with the IP during a flight,thus, failed. When she landed, before the debrief she demanded that they never assign him to her again.

 

[Maplerock]

BCT vs. Plebe summer: BCT is more grueling.

Recognition vs. Sea Trials: Recognition is a longer, more arduous experience.

All debatable, but not even close IMPO.

 

[buffalo]

Raimius,

DS lost 25% at IFS. Started with 28, 21 graduated. His and fencers DS class T6 started with 28 and 21 tracked. They added back in 7 wash backs for his T1/T38 phase and 21 winged. For his friends out of AFROTC, they too had about 50% that winged. He was the only one at Laughlin, the rest were at Vance and Columbus. His groomsmen washed out 4 weeks prior to winging.

I have to admit some of the stories he told me made me shake my cranium in wonderment
~ One guy at IFS washed out before ever getting up in the air. failed the boldface right off the bat.
~ One guy was washed back because he failed his PT test.
~ One girl washed out because she argued with the IP during a flight,thus, failed. When she landed, before the debrief she demanded that they never assign him to her again.

I'd reckon that Raimius's estimate is a little closer to the norm. My IFS memory is a little hazy, but I recall we only lost a few folks at IFS, less than 25%. Then out of a class of 26, we had one person self eliminate pre-solo in T-6s and one more medically washed back one class because he was DNIF for a couple weeks. From what I've seen 2-3 out of 20ish students is more normal attrition.

For those instances, I'm sure there is more to each of those stories.
-I think I've only met one person that washed out of IFS due to academics. For that to happen, the person really has to not care, and not try. I cannot fathom being eliminated for failing a boldface. Perhaps if the student was never able to pass a boldface, but for that to occur, he/she would intentionally not want to be in the program.
-At least at Vance, it was clear that you had to pass a PT test to graduate UPT. No doubt about it. I certainly wasn't in as good of shape leaving UPT as I was going in, but the standard was clear. And let's be real, the AF PT test is not hard.
-Again, I'm sure there is more to that story.

Also, for what it's worth, IFS is now Initial Flight Training (IFT). That change was made sometime in the last year. I don't know what all that entails, but it's my understanding that they no longer eliminate students from the program.

 

[Pima]

They no longer eliminate?

My DS felt that the one that failed boldface at IFT did so on purpose.
~ I do know that I have read many times that the rate for wash out there is 15% I think DSs had a higher rate because of weather issues and students having problems with cross winds during their flights. Thus a lot of 88 and 89 flights occurring.

Anyhoo, the point is for the OP. Not one person goes in to UPT thinking even if it is an average of 25% that they will be one of those 25%. Yet, there they are sitting in front of an FEB and living on prayers that they will now get their number 1 pick for non-rated.

Kevster on the AFROTC forums stated 2 already DOR'd out of his UPT class. I am assuming he is either 16-08 of 09 since he started sometime in April. Which means he has 2 solid months before they track.

You can never stop having plan B in place.

 

[hornetguy]

IFT was implemented as I was getting out around February. The idea was to use it less as elimination and more to try and equalize the playing field. In other words, they took those that struggled and allowed them a few more rides in order to meet standards. From the briefings I was in (staff, not student), the concern was that the IFS staff were being too vigorous in eliminating students and treating the program as a means to eliminate people rather than make sure everyone had some basics down before entering UPT in the T-6. Will this result in higher wash-out rates in UPT? Maybe, maybe not. But better to know if IFS/IFT is worth the cost or if IFT will yield better results than IFS.

 

[Pima]

I am interested to see also if the wash out rates will increase. Part of me says no, because the AF knows that the airlines will be hiring a lot in the next few years, thus they are going to need more pilots. Plus, since Big Blue just announced that they are going back to dropping RPAs again out of UPT than they are going to have even fewer manned pilots this year. Granted, not a lot, but still there will be at least 2 out of every class, assume 20-25 wing each class, than it is 10% going RPA. Their target number to be spread among Vance, Columbus and Laughlin is 80. Basically it would be @ 1 full year of dropping RPAs.

JMPO, but I think right now in many of their career fields they are leaking like a sieve. I read that RPA bonues have now been increased again. Now it is at 15K a year for either a 5 or 7 year commitment. I have also read that in the fighter world, even the 250K bonus is having less than the optimal results they need for manpower purposes. (Both were articles in military times). Than add in Missileers and you can see where I am going regarding my sieve comment.

It will be interesting to see how they fix this if throwing money hand over fist continues to not work from a retention aspect.