Summer Seminar Controversy

As someone who attended SS, I am of the mind that it doesn't increase your chances for acceptance. The things that get you into SS, however, are things the academy generally looks for and will help your application. If anything, I'd take an acceptance as a good sign and an opportunity to learn more/possibly impress your element leader if they do truly write reviews. It's not a guarantee, but it is another hint in the somewhat inscrutable admissions process.

But again, I am not a definitive authority on the whole thing.
 
Cool! Thanks for the help wildblueyonder. All of you guys have been awesome!
 
This topic has come up many times in the past. If you do a search, you'll find a lot of posts about it. To the original poster, all I can say is either you misunderstood your ALO, or he is simply wrong.

At the point of choosing for summer seminar, (Applying December - February of Junior Year), the academy knows absolutely NOTHING about you. Any information they have is totally "Self provided". You could lie and tell them anything about you and they'd never know the difference. Who the academy chooses to go to the academy is also pretty arbitrary. Summer seminar is designed to help the potential applicant decide if the academy is right for them. It's not for the academy to do any choosing from. Again, they don't know anything about. They don't have any official gpa's, official ACT/SAT, they have nothing. They try and make the summer seminar slots diverse. They try and spread out the offers throughout the country. Thousands of individuals apply for summer seminar. I've seen every type of person get accepted to go to summer seminar. The 4.0gpa student and the 3.2gpa student. I've also seen plenty of individuals come back from summer seminar and decide the academy is definitely not what they want to apply to. That's what Summer Seminar is designed for. For potential applicants to see if it's really for them. Unfortunately, there's only a few hundred SS slots, so it's not even possible that every person who eventually receives an appointment could have even gone. There's no where near the same amount of SS slots as there are appointments.

Again; the academy knows almost NOTHING about you. (NOTHING OFFICIAL). The only thing they know is what has been self reported by the applicant.

So, the question being asked is: "Does attending Summer Seminar Actually Help your chances in receiving an Appointment"? This question can be asked in a couple of ways.

DOES it officially help in the application process? NO. It does NOT. Sorry, but this is NOT up for debate. There's not even a place on the application to mention that you went to summer seminar.

CAN it "Unofficially" help in the application process? Yes... it CAN. This however depends. It depends on how good you are at writing resumes and essays. Let me elaborate just a little. EXAMPLE: In one of your essay questions, it asks about handling adversity, or something similar. In your essay, you mention about dealing with the adversity and you give the details. You give a good answer. Everything is fine. HOWEVER: What if in the first sentence of the essay, you wrote something like this for the "FIRST SENTENCE". "While I was attending the Air Force Academy Summer Seminar, I met an individual from a totally different part of the country; who had a completely different background that I. After getting to know each other a little, we found that we had a lot in common. Including how we both overcame a similar adversity.... BLA BLA BLA"

See????? Nothing OFFICIALLY mentions you attending the Summer Seminar, but you were able to incorporate this into your essays. The profile that you set up in the application asks about all your involvements. From sports, to extra curricular activities to Boy/Girl State, etc... The "SKILLED" resume/application write can learn how to incorporate things that "CAN" affect a decision into their application even though it doesn't specifically ask for it.

So how does this help in the application process if it doesn't "OFFICIALLY COUNT". It's called the "HUMAN FACTOR". People actually read your essays. They READ your ALO's evaluation. They READ your Teacher's online assessments of you. If they see the words "SUMMER SEMINAR" in one of your essays it will trigger a psychological response that can create a positive impression of you. Even if you DIDN'T GET SELECTED for Summer Seminar, you can still use this psychology. Example: "I've had to deal with a lot of adversity in my life. Everything from not winning the State Championship in Football to not getting selected to the Air Force Academy Summer Seminar Program". Mind you, this is just an example of taking the words "SUMMER SEMINAR" and injecting them in the writing you are doing. It shows the academy application reader, that you APPLIED for summer seminar. That you REALLY WANT to receive an appointment. Even if you didn't get selected for the summer seminar program, it shows you had the INITIATIVE.

This carries on to your ALO interview and your MOC interviews. Whether you ACTUALLY WENT to summer seminar or not, ISN'T WHAT'S IMPORTANT. What's important, is that you APPLIED to Summer Seminar. If you can incorporate the summer seminar into your answers to questions, it can HELP give a better IMPRESSION. Example: ALO or MOC asks about your experience with "DIVERSITY". You answer along the lines of: "Being from Wyoming, I've always been accustomed to living in an area where the population is predominantly white. I realized while I was at the "Air Force Academy's Summer Seminar", how even though many applicants come from different parts of the country and are of many different backgrounds and races, that we all have very similar dreams and goals in our lives. etc.... Bla Bla Bla.

So, there is NOTHING OFFICIAL that the Summer Seminar can help you with. It's simply not there. And if your ALO tells you differently, they are simply mistaken. There's just not enough Summer Seminar slots available. However, applications and the appointment process is done primarily by PEOPLE. Computers might calculate your scores and do the algorithms, but PEOPLE make the FINAL DECISION. Mentioning Summer Seminar to these PEOPLE (At the academy, your ALO, your MOC, etc.), displays to them a level of ENTHUSIASM, MOTIVATION, and DETERMINATION that you have to receive an appointment. Even if you don't receive a Summer Seminar Slot, MENTIONING that you APPLIED to summer seminar gives that SAME IMPRESSION about you to these PEOPLE.

This is HOW going to summer seminar can help you receive an appointment. It's from the Psychological perspective of those who will be reviewing your application. When you realize that it is PEOPLE that make the decision, not computers, and you learn how to give a good IMPRESSION of yourself to these people, (In the application as well as the interview process), then you will learn how you can make ANYTHING in your life benefit your chances. Whether it's summer seminar, Boy's State, Going to Europe as part of a state/regional music program, even things like going on a Summer Vacation or visiting relatives can be used in presenting yourself positively to the PEOPLE involved in making decision. Best of luck.
 
SS has no affect on your ultimate appointment. It is an EC. The cadet who was giving a "report" was practicing report-giving. It had nothing to do with anyone's appointment.

Now, I would say that an advanced sports camp might get one noticed by a coach, which would be more likely to get someone noticed.
 
It can be so difficult for many people to understand the "WHOLE PERSON" concept when the academy gives appointments. I and Steve (Flieger) as well as many others can tell of first hand accounts of individuals with 4.o type gpa's who didn't get accepted into the academy. Even though they were qualified. It's difficult to understand that the mission of the academy is to "Produce Military Leaders". This isn't the goal or mission of Harvard, Michigan State, University of Texas, Boston College, etc. Not that many leaders haven't come out of the schools; just that it isn't one of their primary missions or goals. They have their requirements, their goals, and their standards. They too will look for diversity and some "Overall" personal attributes. But it isn't like the military academies. That makes it difficult to understand, and sometimes to accept, why a person doesn't receive an appointment to the academy when they have a 3.9+ gpa, a 29+ACT, and a lot of other attributes that would get them accepted into most other schools in the country.

I had a meeting yesterday with one of my applicants who received an appointment last month. I was assisting him fill out some forms. He said how surprised he was, pleasantly surprised, to have received an appointment. Like so many others, he used the traditional requirements of most universities where your acceptance is primarily based on academics, test scores, and essays. We live in Wyoming, and while we will have 20-30 initial interested applicants, it usually drops down to about 15-16 QUALIFIED applicants. We only have 1 representative for the state, so in the end, we will usually only get about 4 appointments a year. Maybe an extra 1-2 if you include Presidential nominations and an individual coming FROM the prep school. So, my candidate (Now Appointee) received an appointment. It wasn't because of gender. He's not a girl. Not based on race. He's white. He's not a recruited athlete. (BTW, none of our Prep School Slots were ever recruited athletes). He wasn't even the #1 student in his class. He had around a 3.6gpa. 29 Composite ACT. So why did he receive an appointment? Why was he one of the lucky 4 and some with the better gpa's and ACT scores didn't? This is where you have to go deep. Look into the WHOLE PERSON. The WHOLE PACKAGE. Did he get accepted and attend Summer Seminar? Yes, but so did some others in our state who didn't receive an appointment. But when you look at the Whole Package, you see the clubs, the extra curricular, the volunteer time, the leadership experiences, involvements in school athletics, (Normal high school athlete, not some super jock being recruited), my interview, MOC nomination, the list goes on. ALL AROUND..... He was a better choice than some of the others who may have had the 3.9-4.0 gpa and the 31-32 ACT. And FWIW, I've had "Recruited Athletes" in past years that were given LOA's or Conditional Appointments, who didn't receive appointments and get to go to the academy.

So, as Navy, Fencing Mamma, and many others have said, Summer Seminar is just another PIECE of the "WHOLE PACKAGE". And as I eluded to in my previous post, it's how you PRESENT your package. It's how you write your application, essays, do your interviews, etc. that will determine whether or NOT the summer seminar, whether boy's state, whether high school sports, whether JrROTC, whether scouts or CAP, or anything else in your package DOES or DOESN'T Help you get an appointment. Applying to the academy is no different than applying for a job. Some people's resumes and interviews are better than others. Some people PRESENT them better. Some people just fit the opening better than some others. Not sure if any of this information will be able to help the next round of applicants. Not sure if it helps some understand why they did or didn't receive an appointment. In a traditional school/university, you can pretty much build a check list of all the things you need to get accepted. Then, you just hope there's enough slots and you get one. The academy isn't like that. There is no magic check list. You could have 2 identical individuals. With identical classes, grades, ACT scores, etc. and one can receive an appointment and the other one doesn't. How they portray themselves in the application. The Whole Package. Their ALO interviews. Their MOC interviews. Their teacher's recommendations. etc. Best of luck.
 
TheEvanCat said:
Eh, I got into SS but rejected from the Academy.

Conversely, I didn't get into USMA SLE and guess where I'm going to college.

It's a variable.
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This was my ds as well, although he ended up turning down his USMA appointment, and he'll be going to VT on a 4 yr. AFROTC scholarship.

To piggy-back off what Pima was saying earlier (I think she is in VA), we are in VA-10, which is one of the most competitive districts in the US. Even though it's pretty commonly accepted that VA congressmen don't duplicate nominations, my ds got a nomination from our rep. as well as from one of our senators (as well as a Presidential)--and he STILL didn't get appointed to USAFA. Only to USMA, where he only had a Presidential nom. So summer seminar, plus 3 nominations didn't help ds! This is where trusting that God has a plan comes in handy, LOL.
 
Christcorp said:
It can be so difficult for many people to understand the "WHOLE PERSON" concept when the academy gives appointments. I and Steve (Flieger) as well as many others can tell of first hand accounts of individuals with 4.o type gpa's who didn't get accepted into the academy. Even though they were qualified. It's difficult to understand that the mission of the academy is to "Produce Military Leaders". This isn't the goal or mission of Harvard, Michigan State, University of Texas, Boston College, etc. Not that many leaders haven't come out of the schools; just that it isn't one of their primary missions or goals. They have their requirements, their goals, and their standards. They too will look for diversity and some "Overall" personal attributes. But it isn't like the military academies. That makes it difficult to understand, and sometimes to accept, why a person doesn't receive an appointment to the academy when they have a 3.9+ gpa, a 29+ACT, and a lot of other attributes that would get them accepted into most other schools in the country.

I had a meeting yesterday with one of my applicants who received an appointment last month. I was assisting him fill out some forms. He said how surprised he was, pleasantly surprised, to have received an appointment. Like so many others, he used the traditional requirements of most universities where your acceptance is primarily based on academics, test scores, and essays. We live in Wyoming, and while we will have 20-30 initial interested applicants, it usually drops down to about 15-16 QUALIFIED applicants. We only have 1 representative for the state, so in the end, we will usually only get about 4 appointments a year. Maybe an extra 1-2 if you include Presidential nominations and an individual coming FROM the prep school. So, my candidate (Now Appointee) received an appointment. It wasn't because of gender. He's not a girl. Not based on race. He's white. He's not a recruited athlete. (BTW, none of our Prep School Slots were ever recruited athletes). He wasn't even the #1 student in his class. He had around a 3.6gpa. 29 Composite ACT. So why did he receive an appointment? Why was he one of the lucky 4 and some with the better gpa's and ACT scores didn't? This is where you have to go deep. Look into the WHOLE PERSON. The WHOLE PACKAGE. Did he get accepted and attend Summer Seminar? Yes, but so did some others in our state who didn't receive an appointment. But when you look at the Whole Package, you see the clubs, the extra curricular, the volunteer time, the leadership experiences, involvements in school athletics, (Normal high school athlete, not some super jock being recruited), my interview, MOC nomination, the list goes on. ALL AROUND..... He was a better choice than some of the others who may have had the 3.9-4.0 gpa and the 31-32 ACT. And FWIW, I've had "Recruited Athletes" in past years that were given LOA's or Conditional Appointments, who didn't receive appointments and get to go to the academy.

So, as Navy, Fencing Mamma, and many others have said, Summer Seminar is just another PIECE of the "WHOLE PACKAGE". And as I eluded to in my previous post, it's how you PRESENT your package. It's how you write your application, essays, do your interviews, etc. that will determine whether or NOT the summer seminar, whether boy's state, whether high school sports, whether JrROTC, whether scouts or CAP, or anything else in your package DOES or DOESN'T Help you get an appointment. Applying to the academy is no different than applying for a job. Some people's resumes and interviews are better than others. Some people PRESENT them better. Some people just fit the opening better than some others. Not sure if any of this information will be able to help the next round of applicants. Not sure if it helps some understand why they did or didn't receive an appointment. In a traditional school/university, you can pretty much build a check list of all the things you need to get accepted. Then, you just hope there's enough slots and you get one. The academy isn't like that. There is no magic check list. You could have 2 identical individuals. With identical classes, grades, ACT scores, etc. and one can receive an appointment and the other one doesn't. How they portray themselves in the application. The Whole Package. Their ALO interviews. Their MOC interviews. Their teacher's recommendations. etc. Best of luck.
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Cool! That makes me feel a lot better.
 
SP4C3M4N said:
I get that there's a fine line between not receiving an appointment letter and getting one but its the tiny little things, the extra service hour or rank in cap that I worry about hindering me from getting to the Academy
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All you can worry about is being the best YOU you can be. If you have time, promote in CAP, volunteer for a couple more hours, but don't burn out. After doing so for 3+ years, I would advice AGAINST centering every facet of your life around USAFA. Work hard, but have fun and be yourself.

wildblueyonder said:
Just remember--when you get that BFE sooner or later, don't let it get to your head. ;) It was really humbling to me to read about all the great candidates who got turned down, and I feel very blessed to be where I am now.
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I completely agree with this. I won't lie, before I got appointed, I thought I would have trouble not being prideful if the BFE came. The converse was true. I was filled with humility over being one of the lucky few to be accepted, when so many others were not. The main factor that contributed to this was remembering that this was a group effort, involving individuals from my church, my family, my horse club, my work, etc...Really, I was just one piece of this huge effort. Never forget those who helped you get there. And, when the BFE comes, be sure to thank them and recognize what they did for you.

Christcorp said:
They try and make the summer seminar slots diverse. They try and spread out the offers throughout the country. Thousands of individuals apply for summer seminar. I've seen every type of person get accepted to go to summer seminar. The 4.0gpa student and the 3.2gpa student.
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So true! People who were obviously very qualified to attend USAFA (like WBY) were denied, and then at SS, I remember meeting some of these kids and thinking "how in the world did they get here when they are very obviously not qualified?" I don't believe SS is a very accurate reflection of potential of admission, because there are so many other factors they consider for SS like diversity of race, gender, location, etc.
 
Christcorp said:
That makes it difficult to understand, and sometimes to accept, why a person doesn't receive an appointment to the academy when they have a 3.9+ gpa, a 29+ACT, and a lot of other attributes that would get them accepted into most other schools in the country.
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The converse is true, too. DS was 4.0+ Valedictorian, 34 ACT, a HS internship at one of the nation's nuke labs, a private scholarship from another national lab, etc. and was turned down flat by UPenn, Cornell, and wait-listed by Trinity. Yet he was appointed to both USAFA and USNA. ???!?
 
Excellent post waiting game. Each school, whether it's the ivy's, west coast ivy, the military academies, or most of the other top schools in the country, have their own set of requirements and goals for the next class coming in.

Outside of the Air Force academy, I've been helping kids get into college for more than 15 years. One of the things that blow many people's minds, is how easy it is to get accepted to college. Even the big names. Unfortunately, if you don't know the school's profiles, then you don't know how to play the game. For instance, a lot of students on the east coast, where a large part of the population lives, will apply for many of those schools. Including the biggies. Most kids and parents like staying close to home. But if you look at how many kids in the schools come from wyoming, Idaho, Montana, or the Dakotas, you find there's not that many. You have a much better chance if you're from far away. Just like an east coast kid who wants veteranarians schools, would have a greater chance looking into Colorado state. (Which is one of the country's leading vet schools) because CSU probably doesn't get a lot of kids from the populated north east.

Each school has their goals and profile they want to fill. That's why some 4.0 gap and 30+ act apps get rejected from one school and accepted by another. Same with the academies. Why some 3.5 get accepted and some don't. And why some 4.0 get accepted and some don't.

As long as you can be honest with yourself and know that you gave it your all, then there's nothing to worry about. It's when you know that you could have done better that it's difficult to live with the disappointment of not being accepted to the academy or a particular school.
 
DS attended Summer Seminar last summer, had a great application, 2 nominations and still did not get an appointment. Don't think SS helps.
 
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