THE BLACK BOX - USNA vs NROTC admissions process

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Wait so does Act/Sat and ECs have nothing to do with it at this point. Im confident in my body of work, but you're saying it could be irrelevant based on where I live and them having to hit racial/gender quotas? And if it is based completely on that, then why did they cut so many two weeks ago and leave some of us at CPR? What was the determining factor in that?
 
The NROTC process might be blind to all those things, but acceptance to any of the universities he can use the scholarship to are not.

Hoops -- I'm not sure the geographic factor is as prominent in most civilian schools. I know most civilian schools care about a mix of in-state and out-of-state as well as international but not necessarily "state-by-state" representation within in their student body. (I've heard the Ivies might care but that is another discussion.) I have been told in Virginia that UVA and perhaps other Virginia colleges and universities set a limit on how many kids they will admit from Northern Virginia because it produces so many high quality students. (Don't get me going on that bit of inverse logic. . . )

For the other factors, you are probably right for most schools, but as I have learned on this forum, being awarded a 4yr ROTC scholarship is a difficult and great accomplishment that typically takes an SA-quality record, and the fact you've been awarded an NROTC (or any ROTC) scholarship can also sometimes help you get admitted because many of the civilian schools recognize the quality cut you have made and know they are going to get paid.
 
Hoops -- I'm not sure the geographic factor is as prominent in most civilian schools. I know most civilian schools care about a mix of in-state and out-of-state as well as international but not necessarily "state-by-state" representation within in their student body. (I've heard the Ivies might care but that is another discussion.) I have been told in Virginia that UVA and perhaps other Virginia colleges and universities set a limit on how many kids they will admit from Northern Virginia because it produces so many high quality students. (Don't get me going on that bit of inverse logic. . . )

For the other factors, you are probably right for most schools, but as I have learned on this forum, being awarded a 4yr ROTC scholarship is a difficult and great accomplishment that typically takes an SA-quality record, and the fact you've been awarded an NROTC (or any ROTC) scholarship can also sometimes help you get admitted because many of the civilian schools recognize the quality cut you have made and know they are going to get paid.

I don't disagree that geography plays a huge role, if not the biggest. I think if a school lets an ROTC scholarship sway an admissions decision its more based on them being supportive of the ROTC program and knowing they will be paying the full rate tuition with a great graduation rate. But no stats to support, just my opinion.
 
If it's a LOTTERY then that defeats the purpose of the B&G. Why should I convince a student to apply because I think he is very qualified and then have to say... "Oh, by the way, after you go through a heckofa lot of work (application, LORs, 3 interviews, 10 essays, 4-6 years of resume building, SAT courses, medicals, etc.) it's really comes down to luck?

usnagrad1988 -- of course luck is involved, but it isn't random luck. You have to work hard and do all those things you mentioned just to put yourself in a position where you can be chosen. There is no guarantee. Luck comes into play based on what state and congressional district you are in, and how competitive the pool in your area is that year, and what are the guidelines given to admissions for that year. With 10,000 people actually applying for one of 1200 USNA slots each year, "convincing" doesn't seem to be required.
 
Hoops -- I'm not sure the geographic factor is as prominent in most civilian schools. I know most civilian schools care about a mix of in-state and out-of-state as well as international but not necessarily "state-by-state" representation within in their student body. (I've heard the Ivies might care but that is another discussion.)

Schools like Notre Dame absolutely seek to have representation from all 50 states, US Territories, and certain foreign countries.
 
Wait so does Act/Sat and ECs have nothing to do with it at this point. Im confident in my body of work, but you're saying it could be irrelevant based on where I live and them having to hit racial/gender quotas? And if it is based completely on that, then why did they cut so many two weeks ago and leave some of us at CPR? What was the determining factor in that?

Below is an input from 845 something. He seems to be "in the know" on USMA admission, but his insights are probably applicable to USNA as well:

When a candidate is mathematically eliminated from the competition, then a TWE is sent. For a demonstration in simplest terms, let's say a candidate can only have one nomination from a MOC. That MOC nominates 10 individuals, and sends a competitive slate.

#1 will get the offer if they become medically qualified.
#2 gets an offer in this case because their WCS is high enough for NWL, but they have not accepted because USAFA is their priority.
#3 is fully qualified and waiting on one or both of the above to decide
#4 and #5 go to the same school. #5 is a recruited athlete with a LOA, so both 4 and 5 get an offer (too easy for #4 to lodge a complaint of why their DS or DD was better and didn't get an offer)
#6, and #7 get QNS because there is no way with all individuals above them with offers accepted and pending that they will fill that vacancy
#8 is DQ'd already because of academics
#9 is coming from USMAPS and will get an offer towards April
#10 didn't even have an application open because they didn't understand the process and West Point gladly closed the file they failed to complete in the month from the time the nomination came in and file deadline.

West Point will hold off on sending a QNS to #3 until they can make the determination who will bring the most to the class...a lot of that revolves around #1 and #2 obviously, but also the rest of the class in comparison to #3. Likely scenario:

April 15th roles around and #1 is not medically Q'd, then that vacancy would go to #2. Even if #2 declines because USAFA came through, #3 may or may not get an offer depending on how the class fill looks at that point in time. If it is full, #4 fills the vacancy, and #3 gets a QNS. If #3 is close to being a NWL candidate or fits a scholar or leadership class composition goal that is lacking, they may get an offer. With three accepted offers already, this district is on the high end of their proportional share of cadets for that class. Depending on the skill of the RC to see how the class fill and composition is shaping up relative to that #3, the RC may not even wait until the resolution of #1 and #2 to send the QNS. It is even more complex with multiple nominations with different candidates on each/multiple slates.

This is the art side behind filling a class that you do not see. If you are 3Q with a nomination and waiting on an offer, this is what is going on behind the scenes. The longer it takes to get your QNS, the closer on the bubble you are to an offer (for NWL, your MOC, or an additional appointee spot if you fit a class composition goal). At this point with almost 800 accepted, and 200 Prepsters still to be offered, most of the spots are filled or pending for this next class as we can safely assume that there are offers out for a significant portion of the remaining 200 spots. Given the number on this forum waiting on a med waiver or another service academy to make a decision on an offer, that number of available spots could quickly diminish in a matter of weeks/days as other TWEs come in and med waivers are approved. It could go the other way as well with med waivers not approved and offers from other service academies leading to declinations.
 
Schools like Notre Dame absolutely seek to have representation from all 50 states, US Territories, and certain foreign countries.
Speaking of ND, I just read an article that said that 24% of their Freshmen class last year were legacy students. Wow! USNA is less than 5%. Seems like it could be much higher.
 
Schools like Notre Dame absolutely seek to have representation from all 50 states, US Territories, and certain foreign countries.

USMCGrunt -- thanks good data. Didn't know that, but makes sense since ND is a private school that draws students from around the country and the world like the Ivies, as opposed to State U.

Would be interesting to know the percent of representation per state/territory vs size of class being admitted to see how that compares to the SA ratio
 
Speaking of ND, I just read an article that said that 24% of their Freshmen class last year were legacy students. Wow! USNA is less than 5%. Seems like it could be much higher.


Yes this is true - the objective behind it is the endowment. Keep it in the family.
 
Speaking of ND, I just read an article that said that 24% of their Freshmen class last year were legacy students. Wow! USNA is less than 5%. Seems like it could be much higher.
Since ND is a private school they can get away with higher legacy numbers. But since USNA is a public school I think it would be frowned upon to "keep it in the family". Just my humble opinion.
 
Since ND is a private school they can get away with higher legacy numbers.
In reality, Notre Dame does not give preference to legacy applicants. Rather, admitted applicants who are legacies end up enrolling there in statistically disproportionate numbers. This allows ND to tell alumni that a higher percentage of legacies are enrolled as Freshmen compared to non-legacies. It's a bit deceiving, but makes for good PR to alumni who may not have time to parse the school's claim.
 
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Speaking of ND, I just read an article that said that 24% of their Freshmen class last year were legacy students. Wow! USNA is less than 5%. Seems like it could be much higher.

It definitely could be much higher, but as you already know, admissions is selecting on the merits of the individual applicants first and foremost. It is so "fair" (depends on where you sit/stand) that having a alumnus dad and a Captain uncle on the yard your DS is still in CPR territory .

Hang in there, grad1988!
 
I feel I can speak from experience as I have a 2/C son and a plebe daughter (both white) at the Naval Academy. In addition, I went there last year as a teacher to the Centers of Influence training. I take issue with the thought that girls are given preference and are not as qualified to be there. It is true that this year there were more girls admitted than any year previous. It also was the year that had the highest SAT/ACT average in it's history. When talking with Admissions, they stated that they have far more girls than ever before applying without recruiting them. Last Plebe summer had the fewest students leave the Academy and ALL that did were males. I am very proud of both my children for getting into such a prestigious school even though we do not have any family with military backgrounds and feel BOTH of them deserve kudos for their accomplishment. Go Navy and Go Navy Girls!
If the published objective stats (ACT/SAT, class rank, CFA scores) for women admittees were the same or better than for male admitees than your position is solid, and I would make no argument to the contrary. The reality is that women and minorities are being admitted on a lesser threshold, to the exclusion of more qualified white male counterparts. If someone wishes to argue that there is a benefit to having greater diversity of officers which outweighs the inherent disadvantages of admitting a significant percentage of candidates who are less qualified from an objective standpoint, I would listen intently to whatever wisdom is offered in that regard, and perhaps there is something to be said there. But let's not confuse the issue; it is easier for women and minorities to be admitted. This is affirmative action. And this is how we are building our military.

It is what it is.
 
If anyone should really complain, it would be Asian-American candidates. They have to perform at higher standards than all ethnic groups include white males.

"There is no evidence that Asian applicants receive special preference at either of the military academies [USMA and USNA]. In fact, there is evidence that the Asian applicants with the same academic qualifications find it somewhat more difficult to obtain admission than do their white counterparts at both academies."

http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/663/ceousa-service-adademies.pdf
 
In reality, Notre Dame does not give preference to legacy applicants. Rather, admitted applicants who are legacies end up enrolling there in statistically disproportionate numbers. This allows ND to tell alumni that a higher percentage of legacies are enrolled as Freshmen compared to non-legacies. It's a bit deceiving, but makes for good PR to alumni who may not have time to parse the school's claim.

This is 100% accurate! And, frankly, Notre Dame has a stronger commitment and more robust PR program than nearly anyone else!

Full disclosure: I am a ND grad.
 
This is 100% accurate! And, frankly, Notre Dame has a stronger commitment and more robust PR program than nearly anyone else!
Full disclosure: I am a ND grad.
(Domer here as well) The disadvantage to USNA legacies is their concentration, and specifically the less-robust Navy presence in Midwest and Rocky Mountain states. Legacy applicants therefore would suffer disproportionately in a system that rewards geographic diversity.
 
If the published objective stats (ACT/SAT, class rank, CFA scores) for women admittees were the same or better than for male admitees than your position is solid, and I would make no argument to the contrary. The reality is that women and minorities are being admitted on a lesser threshold, to the exclusion of more qualified white male counterparts. If someone wishes to argue that there is a benefit to having greater diversity of officers which outweighs the inherent disadvantages of admitting a significant percentage of candidates who are less qualified from an objective standpoint, I would listen intently to whatever wisdom is offered in that regard, and perhaps there is something to be said there. But let's not confuse the issue; it is easier for women and minorities to be admitted. This is affirmative action. And this is how we are building our military.

It is what it is.
Is it published somewhere that the women admits to USNA have lower ACT/SAT scores and lower class rank than men? If so, please direct me to this. Thanks.
 
Is it published somewhere that the women admits to USNA have lower ACT/SAT scores and lower class rank than men? If so, please direct me to this. Thanks.
I would like to see this as well. Anyone also have the ACT/SAT scores for the athletes who are recruited showing that they have lower scores?
 
If the published objective stats (ACT/SAT, class rank, CFA scores) for women admittees were the same or better than for male admitees than your position is solid, and I would make no argument to the contrary. The reality is that women and minorities are being admitted on a lesser threshold, to the exclusion of more qualified white male counterparts. If someone wishes to argue that there is a benefit to having greater diversity of officers which outweighs the inherent disadvantages of admitting a significant percentage of candidates who are less qualified from an objective standpoint, I would listen intently to whatever wisdom is offered in that regard, and perhaps there is something to be said there. But let's not confuse the issue; it is easier for women and minorities to be admitted. This is affirmative action. And this is how we are building our military.

It is what it is.

I don't know if you can back those statements up with real numbers but my DD has maxed 4 of the 6 CFA events for men (bball throw was too short and mile was too slow), is a 2 sport recruited athlete with a 4.89 GPA with a single B in high school, ranked 3rd in her class, went to Girls State and has won a number of awards for math and leadership.

Though she doesn't check this board, the perception that she got in based on a lower standard than her white male counterparts will follow her throughout her career. Because some people will assume things that are untrue

At the same time her opportunities will increase because she is memorable - she is a very bright/attractive woman and she will stand out more than the 400 white guys who all look the same in uniform

No one is well served by lowering the standard.

But at the same time, diversity of thought and background is valuable to any team and I think the MOC nominating process is key to that.

The SA selection process isn't perfect. The intangibles matter and to what degree they get weighed vs the tangibles will always be open for debate and in an imperfect world the SAs will seek to strike that balance sometimes by giving too much weight and sometimes not enough
 
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