The inevitable issue: Rape

[stella]

I am probably going to get jumped up and down upon for saying this, but not only do the 20something% of women at USAFA need to be mindful of their behavior, their associations, etc. in an environment where they are a significant minority, but the 80something% of men need to also be mindful of their own behavior, their associations, etc. when situations can degenerate. Men AND women need to watch their behavior when indulging in alcohol, and men need to be held responsible for inappropriate behavior just as women need to not put themselves in situations of risk. As JMC said before, it is often hard to get to the "truth" in these situations and just because a male cadet is "exonerated" doesn't mean there is a "false accuser" that gets off unscathed. Yes, I have a daughter, and my husband was in the first class of female cadets, Class of 80. We lecture her constantly about making sure she is not misunderstood and that she does not put herself in a risky situation. I expect the same from the men around her. I don't expect them to protect her, but I do expect that they understand boundaries and respect the women around them.

I don't see why anyone would jump all over you for this post at all. It seems VERY fair and truthful to all sides. Bottom line seems to be that ladies need to protect and respect themselves and that young men need to be respectful and mindful of their words and deeds.
S

 

[BelowRadar]

I am probably going to get jumped up and down upon for saying this,

Not by me

 

[afa]

there are people i'm who take advantage of females when they are inebriated but i think females should also not put themselves in situations where they will be at risk.

 

[melindayching]

there are people i'm who take advantage of females when they are inebriated but i think females should also not put themselves in situations where they will be at risk.

...I quite agree. But what you don't say in the above is that people should not take advantage of females when they are inebriated. I could be hypersensitive about this, but what you stated above indicates that "females should not..." rather than "people who take advantage of females..." should not. Responsibility for their actions is with both parties.

 

[HeWantsTheBFE]

Can we please keep this on topic, please? This is generating a lot of good information and perspective, let's not let this degenerate. This is a sensitive issue, let's please keep it constructive.

 

[USCGA13STN]

Ladies, do not, ever, put yourself into a position where you could be in danger, if you can help it. Safety in numbers, and really, forget the booze! And don't get into cars with drunk drivers!

This is by no means meant as a direct attack at you, however I would like to point something out. A lot of our problems with rape in this society stem from statements like that:

"Ladies, do not ever..."

These statements are inherently bad. They imply that it is the job of the woman to prevent a rape, when that shouldn't be the case. The best way to prevent rape, teach young men that it is wrong. Teach the definition of consent at an early age and quit placing so much emphasis on what the woman needs to do, because a woman should never have to fear being raped and shouldn't be forced to take steps to prevent it.

You want to drop rape rates? Change the culture surrounding it.

That's just my own two cents on the matter, feel free to disagree if you will.

 

[bmw17]

These statements are inherently bad. They imply that it is the job of the woman to prevent a rape, when that shouldn't be the case. The best way to prevent rape, teach young men that it is wrong. Teach the definition of consent at an early age and quit placing so much emphasis on what the woman needs to do, because a woman should never have to fear being raped and shouldn't be forced to take steps to prevent it.

^This is spot on.

A lot of the issue with sexual assault is the whole concept of blaming the girl, often times without even realizing it. Everyone agrees that rape is bad, however there are always people who suggest that "well the girl was drunk so it's not really as big of a deal." I know girls who have been sexually assaulted (not at USAFA) but, as a result of social constructs, felt somewhat personally responsible. This is something that I personally think needs to be changed.

 

[BelowRadar]

The best way to prevent rape, teach young men that it is wrong. Teach the definition of consent at an early age and quit placing so much emphasis on what the woman needs to do, because a woman should never have to fear being raped and shouldn't be forced to take steps to prevent it.

Yes

 

[afa]

...I quite agree. But what you don't say in the above is that people should not take advantage of females when they are inebriated. I could be hypersensitive about this, but what you stated above indicates that "females should not..." rather than "people who take advantage of females..." should not. Responsibility for their actions is with both parties.

sorry if that sounded one sided, but yes it is a two sided problems. there are always going to be messed up people and in this case males who will take advantage of others, IE females even when they are not intoxicated. i find it disgusting and wonder how anyone drunk or sober could ever consider it, but alcohol really brings out the worst in people it seems. i guess some aren't as lucky as others and aren't brought up properly.

 

[melindayching]

Sorry, afa...didn't mean to come across sounding so thin skinned; others expressed themselves better. I've brought up the sexual harassment issue before on this forum back awhile when my daughter was in the application process and felt a bit hammered upon, so now that it's brought up I wanted to be a bit more emphatic about this not being only a female's issue to deal with. I have read the congressional report on sexual harassment in the military (came out about a year ago) and have satisfied myself that institutionally USAFA has done just about everything it can to change culture and put into place procedures and safeguards. So it boils down to behavior by individuals, male and female. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Blue Skies]

As a parent of sons who have / or are attending academies, and now a daughter who will be attending, my advice to ALL of them has been exactly the same. DO NOT allow yourself to get into a situation where poor decision making by either party can result in harm to either. I have said this to all of them through out their teen years and also at the academies. If this requires a female to be somehow more vigilant, so be it. That is also the reality of life. Is it right that she have to do so? No. Is it reality? I think so.

The academies have undertaken huge amounts of training in the last few years to address and prevent sexual violence. I feel 100% safer about my DD going off to the USAFA than I would about her going off to even the finest "regular" college.

 

[stella]

The Bystander

...The academies have undertaken huge amounts of training in the last few years to address and prevent sexual violence...

Does the training include issues of bystanders? I am curious as to whether the concept of the importance of not being a bystander and watching inapporpriate things unfold, but trying to protect those in harms way, is addressed at all in the training.

We had a discussion regarding harrassment with someone from the Naval Academy. A young man we know said that he overheard a new midshipman make a horrible racial and sexual slur to another (female) midshipman, thinking it was funny. IMMEDIATELY, another jumped down his throat and told him to change his tune or he would not be welcomed at the USNA. They (2 other young men) then 'escorted him away' and had a little talk with him. He returned and apologized to the female midshipman. The others told her that if she wanted to report the incident that would go with her, but they were confident it would not occur with this midshipman again. I just wonder if the reaction of the bystanders was taught, brought on by their own internal sense of justice and protecting others or a combination.

With a house full of teens we too have these conversations. My husband's focus, as the character and choices of our boys shakes out (no immediate concern of them being the 'bully'), now seems to be how to react when they witness issues...as they inevitably will.

S

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

There have been situations at the AFA where break-ups have turned sour and sexual assault allegations later happened. There is a growing culture at the USAFA (as well as West Point) where males refuse to date female cadets out of fear of making their life miserable. There is a deep unknown concern of being accused of a sexual assault after a emotional break-up. A couple years ago, I was told by a MN West Point cadet that a senior was kicked out because he was accused of spanking his recently broken up girlfriends butt. Assuming it happened, before the break up I guess it was acceptable but after break-up it was a sexual assault. He was kicked out. Assuming it happened, it's not o.k. but it shows why cadets are passing on cadet relationships and prefer to date civilians.

I recognize the statistics of false accusations are rare but they have happened enough where a growing percentage of male cadets refuse to date cadet women. My DS falls under that category. Friend yes, girlfriend no way! After all, cadets are employees of the US government. Dating at work CAN BE a recipe for a sexual harassment lawsuit.

 

[Luigi59]

Establish a total 100% prohibition of alcohol consumption at every military academy - treat it exactly the same as drug use -- and the problem will practically disappear.

I'd wager that over 95% of the sexual assault comes about when one or both of the actors have consumed alcohol.

Ban it - for every cadet (under 21, over 21, no distinction) with the penalty for a positive test being disenrollment/discharge -- and it won't happen anymore.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Establish a total 100% prohibition of alcohol consumption at every military academy - treat it exactly the same as drug use -- and the problem will practically disappear.

I'd wager that over 95% of the sexual assault comes about when one or both of the actors have consumed alcohol.

Ban it - for every cadet (under 21, over 21, no distinction) with the penalty for a positive test being disenrollment/discharge -- and it won't happen anymore.

I agree. But the concerning part is why rapes happen with alcohol? You could feed me 2-10 Long Island Ice Teas and I would never have the urge to rape someone. It isn't in my DNA. The fact that alcohol allows someone to show their true colors to RAPE is shocking.

But "rape" (in SOME situation) really means "I made a bad mistake last night" when their mind is clear and the female reports it as an assault. The details can be extremely cloudy in their own mind yet they are sure they were assaulted. Note I said it SOME situations.

Your alcohol-free solution would work.

 

[stella]

Agreed

Establish a total 100% prohibition of alcohol consumption at every military academy - treat it exactly the same as drug use -- and the problem will practically disappear.

I'd wager that over 95% of the sexual assault comes about when one or both of the actors have consumed alcohol.

Ban it - for every cadet (under 21, over 21, no distinction) with the penalty for a positive test being disenrollment/discharge -- and it won't happen anymore.

 

[FlyingFuzz]

Establish a total 100% prohibition of alcohol consumption at every military academy - treat it exactly the same as drug use -- and the problem will practically disappear.

I'd wager that over 95% of the sexual assault comes about when one or both of the actors have consumed alcohol.

Ban it - for every cadet (under 21, over 21, no distinction) with the penalty for a positive test being disenrollment/discharge -- and it won't happen anymore.

I don't see how your solution would change anything...Maybe at the academies, but not when they graduate. What happens then if they decide to get drunk? The academy can no longer stop them. Are you going to keep holding the graduates' hands every second while they're officers, because they aren't responsible enough to make their own decisions as adults? Yet you expect them to make decisions that will impact the lives of the airmen placed under their command? Banning alcohol is not the solution, it merely delays the problem for another four years.

 

[Luigi59]

I don't see how your solution would change anything...Maybe at the academies, but not when they graduate.

We are discussing the academies, aren't we?

Specifically, the United States Air Force Academy?

Thus, my post specifically addressed that. You can propose other solutions for other situations, but I thought we were talking about the academy(ies).

Or did I misunderstand the purpose of this thread and the OP's question?

 

[HeWantsTheBFE]

My question was about the academy itself, but a more expansive, systemattic, perhaps even societal error seems to be what we are really talking about here at the moment.

This is all great stuff, and this thread was more successful than I could have imagined.

 

[Hurricane12]

My daughter is a C3C and she does not fear for her safety! She loves these guys like brothers and trusts them with her life. That being said, she said that those women who do get taken advantage of are the "party" girls.

...And this is why people don't come forward and sexual assault is an issue.

Look, I'm totally on board with making yourself a "hard target" by watching what you drink, going out in groups, etc. That should be common sense. Victim blaming and trying to shift the responsibility off of the person who, oh, I don't know, commits the crime, is counterproductive t the very least.

Establish a total 100% prohibition of alcohol consumption at every military academy - treat it exactly the same as drug use -- and the problem will practically disappear.

That's cute. Just like how no one drinks underage at (gasp) a service academy, right?

Historically, there are already repercussions of mids/cadets heading out to the real world and trying to make up for lost time. As it is, we're in this fake environment getting mixed messages about alcohol use and mids/cadets usually split the difference by getting drunk at every available opportunity. Banning alcohol at the service academies is unrealistic and sets mids up for failure when they get to the real world. You're kidding yourself if you think that "America's finest" rolleyes has the maturity and self-discipline to never abuse alcohol.

Edited to add:

We are discussing the academies, aren't we?

Specifically, the United States Air Force Academy?

Thus, my post specifically addressed that. You can propose other solutions for other situations, but I thought we were talking about the academy(ies).

This is stupidly obtuse and myopic, and you know it. Actions have consequences. In the case of the service academies, stuff that impacts cadets' experiences can have a direct impact on the operational forces. Sure, say you stop drinking at USAFA and there's no sexual assault cases, no DUIs, etc. Great! But then what do you do when there's a spike in 2ndLts from having ARIs or USAFA washing out of UPT because they're partying too much?