The inevitable issue: Rape

[FlyingFuzz]

We are discussing the academies, aren't we?

Specifically, the United States Air Force Academy?

Thus, my post specifically addressed that. You can propose other solutions for other situations, but I thought we were talking about the academy(ies).

Or did I misunderstand the purpose of this thread and the OP's question?

Yes, your post did address the problem at the academy, but only proposed half of a solution. Your solution would certainly help to alleviate the problem from a pure numbers standpoint, but also remember that it is the academy's goal to produce leaders of character. As I see it, completely banning alcohol isn't "teaching" the cadets anything. It is simply controlling them and won't change their attitudes once they graduate. If USAFA (or any of the academies) wanted to fix the problem, they would come up with a way that changed the mentalities of the cadets regarding the seriousness of the situation without imposing rules on them that won't apply after they leave. The ability to make the decision on your own and not have to have someone make the decision for you would be the result of producing a person of character. As far as how that gets accomplished, don't ask me, I'm just a smart-aleck teen who thinks he makes a great armchair quarterback.

 

[Luigi59]

This is stupidly obtuse and myopic, and you know it. Actions have consequences.

"Stupidly obtuse and myopic" is a belief that the academy could not make and enforce a rule banning alcohol 100%, with the penalty being disenrollment.

Your comments about "after the academy" and "fake environment" and "setting up for failure" are just straw men and red herrings.

 

[Luigi59]

Yes, your post did address the problem at the academy, but only proposed half of a solution. Your solution would certainly help to alleviate the problem from a pure numbers standpoint, but also remember that it is the academy's goal to produce leaders of character. As I see it, completely banning alcohol isn't "teaching" the cadets anything.

What is banning marijuana teaching them? It's legal in Colorado....

 

[kinnem]

"Stupidly obtuse and myopic" is a belief that the academy could not make and enforce a rule banning alcohol 100%, with the penalty being disenrollment.

Your comments about "after the academy" and "fake environment" and "setting up for failure" are just straw men and red herrings.

I have to say I am somewhat in agreement with Luigi here. In NROTC, or at least at my son's unit, that's pretty much the rule. Actually, in practice, it's a 100% ban on getting caught while using alcohol. The net effect would be the same at the Academy. Personally, I prefer lowering the legal age for alcohol consumption to 18 and introducing it to kids in a responsible manner. OK, ok. I know they'll get blasted anyway, or at least many will. I still think we do something wrong with alcohol consumption here compared to Europe where, to the best of my knowledge, it's no big deal.

 

[HeWantsTheBFE]

. Personally, I prefer lowering the legal age for alcohol consumption to 18 and introducing it to kids in a responsible manner. OK, ok. I know they'll get blasted anyway, or at least many will. I still think we do something wrong with alcohol consumption here compared to Europe where, to the best of my knowledge, it's no big deal.

+1. Education is the key to destroying ignorance. How can people deal with if they were never taught?

 

[hornetguy]

+1. Education is the key to destroying ignorance. How can people deal with if they were never taught?

Sorry guys, this is a popular misconception with drinking. Europe is no better and may be worse with drinking behavior among young people:

http://www.udetc.org/documents/YouthDrinkingRatesAndProblems.pdf

I have to say, the irony of your statement and the reality (not as a knock to you personally), is amusing! Education certainly is the key to destroying ignorance.

Back to the topic at hand, rape. An issue which I certainly don't think is "inevitable."

 

[MedB]

As someone mentioned earlier, I would expect that these young men's peers would take an active role in ensuring the safety of their classmates.... male or female. The story of the two mids pulling aside another and having a "talk" is spot on.

My DS has been raised with the old fashioned ideal that it is the responsibility of every gentlemen to stand up for a lady in trouble.... every time, every place, every situation... period.

That sense for standing up for what's right, and for those that can't, is key to why my DS ... and now my DD too... wants to serve in the first place.

I would hope that this is part and parcel of what's taught at AFA.

 

[kinnem]

As someone mentioned earlier, I would expect that these young men's peers would take an active role in ensuring the safety of their classmates.... male or female. The story of the two mids pulling aside another and having a "talk" is spot on.

My DS has been raised with the old fashioned ideal that it is the responsibility of every gentlemen to stand up for a lady in trouble.... every time, every place, every situation... period.

That sense for standing up for what's right, and for those that can't, is key to why my DS ... and now my DD too... wants to serve in the first place.

I would hope that this is part and parcel of what's taught at AFA.

+1. Amen to that.

 

[Hurricane12]

"Stupidly obtuse and myopic" is a belief that the academy could not make and enforce a rule banning alcohol 100%, with the penalty being disenrollment.

Your comments about "after the academy" and "fake environment" and "setting up for failure" are just straw men and red herrings.

It's a completely unenforceable rule. I was running through my head any scenario in which it's feasible (the most plausible is requiring a breathalyzer to enter base...which doesn't solve the weekend problem) and any one that would be effective at all essentially turns the academy into a prison (or a monastery, pick your poison).

And they're not straw men.

Officers are expected to handle alcohol responsibly. The best way to learn how to handle drinking without making an ass of yourself is through exposure. You will likely not know how to handle alcohol responsibly if the first time you encounter it is at flight suit Fridays at the O-Club or your unit's mess night.

Alcohol is very much a part of the culture of the military, and whether that's right or wrong changing that would require years the movement of mountains.

In NROTC, or at least at my son's unit, that's pretty much the rule. Actually, in practice, it's a 100% ban on getting caught while using alcohol.

Curious what you mean by this...like, no MIDN in the unit can't have alcohol, ever?

 

[JMC0759]

There have been situations at the AFA where break-ups have turned sour and sexual assault allegations later happened. There is a growing culture at the USAFA (as well as West Point) where males refuse to date female cadets out of fear of making their life miserable. There is a deep unknown concern of being accused of a sexual assault after a emotional break-up. A couple years ago, I was told by a MN West Point cadet that a senior was kicked out because he was accused of spanking his recently broken up girlfriends butt. Assuming it happened, before the break up I guess it was acceptable but after break-up it was a sexual assault. He was kicked out. Assuming it happened, it's not o.k. but it shows why cadets are passing on cadet relationships and prefer to date civilians.

I recognize the statistics of false accusations are rare but they have happened enough where a growing percentage of male cadets refuse to date cadet women. My DS falls under that category. Friend yes, girlfriend no way! After all, cadets are employees of the US government. Dating at work CAN BE a recipe for a sexual harassment lawsuit.

Wow, New York State considers a slap on the butt to be a sexual assault?

Every cadet/midshipman at every academy should be given the hard facts about being accused of a sexual assault that may/can be reported to civilian law enforcement. Without any physical evidence to support your defense that an act was consenual you are probably going to jail. It's your word against the victim's and that is not going to hold very much weight when you are the one accused of committing a felony. Once the news hits the media you have already lost.

As many people had already stated don't put yourself in a position where you can be accused and lay off the alcohol.

 

[FlyingFuzz]

What is banning marijuana teaching them? It's legal in Colorado....

It may be legal in Colorado, but the Air Force was explicit in saying that it isn't legal in the Air Force as a whole; it is no just an academy thing. Alcohol is not banned in the entire Air Force. That's the difference.

 

[kinnem]

Curious what you mean by this...like, no MIDN in the unit can't have alcohol, ever?

Hi Hurricane,
Meaning they can't get caught if they are underage. Prior MOI use to dismiss them on Friday with "If you drink don't get caught....". There was more but it wasn't drinking related, although it perhaps pertained to this discussion, if only indirectly.

 

[kinnem]

Wow, New York State considers a slap on the butt to be a sexual assault?

Every cadet/midshipman at every academy should be given the hard facts about being accused of a sexual assault that may/can be reported to civilian law enforcement. Without any physical evidence to support your defense that an act was consenual you are probably going to jail. It's your word against the victim's and that is not going to hold very much weight when you are the one accused of committing a felony. Once the news hits the media you have already lost.

As many people had already stated don't put yourself in a position where you can be accused and lay off the alcohol.

I doubt New York State was involved. In any case sexual assault is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't mean that to either belittle the beholder or belittle what is viewed as a sexual assault.

 

[Luigi59]

It's a completely unenforceable rule. I was running through my head any scenario in which it's feasible (the most plausible is requiring a breathalyzer to enter base...which doesn't solve the weekend problem) and any one that would be effective at all essentially turns the academy into a prison (or a monastery, pick your poison).

Yea, how crazy of me to think that if the Academy made it an absolute 100% prohibition that it would actually be followed by United States Air Force Academy cadets.

Do they have a rule about using inhalants on the weekends? You know, whippets, spray paint, etc? Sniffing glue to get high, is that allowed?

Or is that also prohibited? I would think there's a rule against it.

Do they test for it, or are cadets expected to follow their honor and conduct codes?

Again how silly of me to think that an alcohol prohibition, if enacted, would not be followed.

 

[Hurricane12]

Hi Hurricane,
Meaning they can't get caught if they are underage. Prior MOI use to dismiss them on Friday with "If you drink don't get caught....". There was more but it wasn't drinking related, although it perhaps pertained to this discussion, if only indirectly.

Oh, duh. I brainfarted.

Luigi, if you're going to argue that (biologically) alcohol is a drug that can be as potent and damaging as some of the substances you listed I am in complete agreement.

But mids/cadets aren't going to see it that way because socially it's not seen the same way. I mean, I'm going to a command-sponsored, endorsed, and mandatory drink-fest tonight (Mess Night)...while alcohol consumption there isn't "mandatory," you better believe it's pretty much expected.
Cadets aren't stupid. They know damn well the difference between "real rules" and "stupid rules," and when its clear that the real military and real world have different rules about alcohol it becomes a "don't get caught" game.

I think you only need to look at the spice scandal to realize that yes, sometimes cadets and mids aren't always the most upstanding when it comes to intoxicating substances.

 

[JMC0759]

I doubt New York State was involved. In any case sexual assault is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't mean that to either belittle the beholder or belittle what is viewed as a sexual assault.

The definitition of a sexual assault is in the eye of the beholder? That seems a pretty casual way to explain a charge that could get you disenrolled, booted out of the military and maybe sent to Kansas. Don't pat a teammate after a good play as it might be taken the wrong way?

Not to be graphic but sexual assault is usually viewed as some type of penetration.

I don't want to sound flippant and I try never try to doubt a victim's version of an offense but you don't get to manipulate legal prose to charge somebody with something.

 

[falconfamily]

The definitition of a sexual assault is in the eye of the beholder? That seems a pretty casual way to explain a charge that could get you disenrolled, booted out of the military and maybe sent to Kansas. Don't pat a teammate after a good play as it might be taken the wrong way?

Not to be graphic but sexual assault is usually viewed as some type of penetration.

I don't want to sound flippant and I try never try to doubt a victim's version of an offense but you don't get to manipulate legal prose to charge somebody with something.

Actually that is not correct: The term sexual assault is used, in public discourse, as a generic term that is defined as any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any sexual touching of a person who has not consented. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner.

http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/sexassault.htm

What constitutes Sexual Assault is quite broad and some of the key elements are consent and coercion. But to your general point, I don't think anyone looks at this lightly. To direct this discussion in a way that seems to imply that it is a greater problem in Service Academies or greater consideration should be made if you have a DD is somewhat misguided. The statistics on sexual assaults at universities are stunning, there are some studies that suggest that 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted in some manner at college. It is an issue that needs to be dealt with, but it is in no way isolated to SA's. As some people have noted, alcohol and drugs are a common thread in these assaults at colleges and often times it is people who are known to the victim.

 

[raimius]

Luigi, I don't think issuing G.O. 1 at the academies is a good way to stop sex crimes.

 

[Luigi59]

Use of alcohol was just banned for 10,000 soldiers in the 2nd Infantry Division.

The overwhelming percentage of assaults - sexual or otherwise - that take place in the military involve alcohol - undeniable.

If this number is as high as I think it is (95%+) then it's pretty clear there is a common denominator that can be eliminated by a simple command decision, such as the one taken by the 2nd ID.

Cadets are restricted from other things, it really wouldn't be that hard. The knuckleheads that disobey the order will be weeded out, and eventually the cadets will accept that a decision to consume alcohol will result in their dismissal, and they will make that choice to stay and abstain, following the orders of those officers appointed above them.

It's not rocket science - alcohol enables behavior that otherwise would not take place.

 

[JMC0759]

Actually that is not correct: The term sexual assault is used, in public discourse, as a generic term that is defined as any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any sexual touching of a person who has not consented. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner.

http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/sexassault.htm

What constitutes Sexual Assault is quite broad and some of the key elements are consent and coercion. But to your general point, I don't think anyone looks at this lightly. To direct this discussion in a way that seems to imply that it is a greater problem in Service Academies or greater consideration should be made if you have a DD is somewhat misguided. The statistics on sexual assaults at universities are stunning, there are some studies that suggest that 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted in some manner at college. It is an issue that needs to be dealt with, but it is in no way isolated to SA's. As some people have noted, alcohol and drugs are a common thread in these assaults at colleges and often times it is people who are known to the victim.

I accept your rebuke and the federal government's definition of sexual assault. I have been enforcing the Texas Penal Code for the last 33 years and it is much more specific about what constitutes sexual assault.