The US Air Force Academy: Elite Undergraduate College?

scoutpilot. I laid out my logic. You brought up USAFA was a compromise because of newly minted grad student instructors. I agreed. Then I explained there is a similar problem at the supposed best institution. Did you know that? If not, you were guessing how incredible things are in 2016. They have a worse problem than newly minted graduate students who are teaching students. Hence, I has to assume you were guessing.
We agree that there is a different mission and therefore a different kind of education. (I think) we agree that MIT or Stanford has a better engineer program. As a whole, academics (class options) are superior in most colleges around the country. I also pointed out a fact that they teach a lot of UG classes the same as any other college (with the benefit of smaller class size). Can we agree??

There are programs that are inside of USAFA (Scholars) that focus on a more liberal arts. It's not an Honors type program. I have never heard of such program at any Ivy's. They are groomed to be... well... to be scholars! The one on one level of commitment and caliber of education is stellar. If you know of such a program, do share! That was my point. Hence, I said "it depends".

As a side note, I don't the UofMN is world class in most of their highly ranked programs. Not even close. You might as well take online classes.
 
MemberLG said:
I wouldn't sell West Point so short on academics (can't comment on other SAs), as most of my 300/400 level courses for my major were instructed by phD. Granted because of all the mandatory courses we had to take, I didn't take too many courses for my major. I attended an academically elite university for a year before going to West Point - my freshman year classes were instructed by TAs or a professor with a couple hundred students. Supposed, if I stayed at that university I would have experienced world class education my junior/senior level.

What was a world class undergraduate education? So how much better or good is a MIT engineering undergraduate degree vs USMA engineering undergraduate degree?
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As a holder of a USMA engineering degree I'd say MIT. And I'm pretty proud of what I learned.
 
Sometimes these days I have to wonder which is more important, what the schools are teaching.... or what they are not.....IE ....SEX Week...Yes it is a thing at many of our wonderful institutions, along with every other sort of indoctrination.
 
MemberLG said:
Didn't answer my question - how much better or good?
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Considering their relationship with industry, the benefits of research, the depth of achievement tied to that department, and the ability of students to focus fully on academics and not try to cram an engineering degree in sideways (which is basically what the academies do, leading to a lot of spec-and-dump "learning" for classes like thermo) I'd put a place like MIT pretty far ahead of USMA in the quality of their initial product. USMA probably produces a more interesting and rounded student, but MIT engineering is a clear step above the SAs.
 
LDH said:
Sometimes these days I have to wonder which is more important, what the schools are teaching.... or what they are not.....IE ....SEX Week...Yes it is a thing at many of our wonderful institutions, along with every other sort of indoctrination.
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What? :confused:
 
scoutpilot, do you think MIT having a better engineering school could also have to do with the innate ability and average ACADEMIC quality of the the entering freshman. I know most MIT admits are close to 800 SAT or 35-36 ACT math, and that is just to get their foot in the door. The average test scores for the SA's are significantly lower. I also know that test scores don't predict everything, but the vast majority of MIT admits also have finished and excelled at Calc I and II in high school, and many of them did Calc III, Diff Eq, and even more advanced topics in high school, allowing them go get into more depth, more quickly.
 
scoutpilot said:
Considering their relationship with industry, the benefits of research, the depth of achievement tied to that department, and the ability of students to focus fully on academics and not try to cram an engineering degree in sideways (which is basically what the academies do, leading to a lot of spec-and-dump "learning" for classes like thermo) I'd put a place like MIT pretty far ahead of USMA in the quality of their initial product. USMA probably produces a more interesting and rounded student, but MIT engineering is a clear step above the SAs.
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Agree. We can go back discussion what a "world class" education is. If an employer is looking for a good entry level engineer to perform specific engineering tasks, they should pick a MIT grad. At least $250,000 question is that is the MIT grad draw on his MIT education to move on to the next level. I would think if the next level is mostly about technical expertise - yes. If the next level include supervision, project management, etc, I would pick a USMA grad.

Is a world class education about just preparing you to be the next for a position right after college or for the whole life?
 
MemberLG said:
Agree. We can go back discussion what a "world class" education is. If an employer is looking for a good entry level engineer to perform specific engineering tasks, they should pick a MIT grad. At least $250,000 question is that is the MIT grad draw on his MIT education to move on to the next level. I would think if the next level is mostly about technical expertise - yes. If the next level include supervision, project management, etc, I would pick a USMA grad.

Is a world class education about just preparing you to be the next for a position right after college or for the whole life?
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I work daily in this exact situation you are speaking about LG. The difference is, most engineers should remain pure engineers. I think that is the problem I find in the engineering world, especially the government side. I have seen brilliant engineers have their careers derailed because someone decided that they have an ounce of common sense, can put a sentence together and speak to others therefore the next step is management. Let a great engineer remain one and make a career path for them. Some will want to grow the other direction, great. If a USMA grad leaves active duty after 5-10 years more than likely to become a pure technical engineer they would take a few steps back to learn the latest and greatest tools, methods, etc or possibly get "caught up" in a Masters program. SA grads are hired at a great rate to be engineering managers because they are well rounded, can write, speak, manage and have enough technical competence to manage engineers. And yes, I agree that MIT, Stanford, etc creates a better engineer than a SA. Its not a bad thing, its different goals and end states.
 
LDH said:
You had to ask.

...to those who think this is flippant, not relevant, I ask which is more important to future success, learning character and self discipline or a higher level math class?
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I think I'm missing your point here.
 
LDH said:
You had to ask.

...to those who think this is flippant, not relevant, I ask which is more important to future success, learning character and self discipline or a higher level math class?

http://www.hsexweek.org/schedule/

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...ers-fume-over-state-universitys-sex-week.html
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Perhaps it has to do with an age difference, but this is fantastic. Like it or not, kids live and breathe sex. Their bodies are full of hormones that make them want to get naked and explore one another. The biggest impediment to making sex safer, preventing sexual harassment and assault, and teaching safe boundaries is to NOT talk about sex. Sex is a biological part of adult life. Taking it out of the dark and teaching kids how to do it safely, respectfully, and how to learn and keep their own bodies safe and respected is a good thing. Universities absolutely need to provide these sorts of venues.

The Fox News types who blast fauxtrage all over the Internet about "harrumph harrumph my tax dollars harrumph harrumph" are nothing but willfully obtuse obstructionists. Kids are having sex. They will continue to. Frankly, they young men and women at our SAs would greatly benefit from a frank forum on their bodies and their desires. The military has made sex so terribly taboo that we further stigmatize, slut-shame, and impair the mental and physical health of our servicemembers. Especially our women.
 
BlahuKahuna said:
I think I'm missing your point here.
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Appointee class of 2020 is trying to decide at which college he/she will get a better education. His/her focus is on Academics Math, Science, etc. I am just pointing out that there are other things that factor into success besides the STEM subjects, and those might be integrity, values,work ethic, the people and examples you surround yourself and build future contacts with. It seems to me that many of the "higher halls of learning" are spending too much time on teaching the wrong things. Yea I realize that Schools Like MIT are all about Math and Science and social issues probably never cross their mind, but everyone is not choosing between and academy and MIT etc..

Really the same point as many of the previous posters. Look at the whole picture, not just some math scores.
 
BTW I can see I am pulling the conversation away from the original thread, and no I don't care to start a new thread. Out-a-here :confused:
 
MemberLG said:
Is a world class education about just preparing you to be the next for a position right after college or for the whole life?
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Should be both, varying by institution.

SA's mission is to produce military officers, ready for the job immediately. All aspects of the 18 hr/day are geared to that end. The military aspect of the education, from the most direct to the most tangential, precludes the kind of extracurricular academic endeavors that separate the big research behemoths from other colleges and universities. This is especially the case with the STEM disciplines.

DS #2 is a Junior Mech E major at Big State U. He works a total of 15-20 hrs/wk between a physics lab and a robotics lab. The more elite the institution, the more numerous and challenging those opportunities would be. At an SA, no one has the time, so there are far fewer opportunities. Even if there is time during the summer, the Cadets/Mids still would have fewer of those opportunities because of summer military commitments and the lack of networking afforded the student from the big elite.

Boeing, Google, Merck or Elite Graduate Programs are looking for specific skill sets beyond Calculus, Physics and Chemistry. Advantage--Big Research U. The military is looking for different specific skill sets beyond Calculus, Physics or Political Science for that matter--Advantage SA's.

Discussing which is best or which is or isn't elite is parental navel-gazing resulting in kids being pushed into places and positions they shouldn't be.

Each institution will offer different advantages for different paths, but the right kid for the military can come from either an SA or xROTC or a half decent University. The same applies to the right kid for Raytheon or Goldman Sachs.

To me the bottom line is, if you're concerned about the quality of the STEM education at the SA's, then make everyone's life easier and just don't apply. If the military is still your thing, then do ROTC at a school which meets your definition of elite.
 
scoutpilot said:
The biggest impediment to making sex safer, preventing sexual harassment and assault, and teaching safe boundaries is to NOT talk about sex. Sex is a biological part of adult life. Taking it out of the dark and teaching kids how to do it safely, respectfully, and how to learn and keep their own bodies safe and respected is a good thing. Universities absolutely need to provide these sorts of venues.
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Maybe in the old days, like maybe the 1400s, sex was something kept "in the dark". Anymore, and for a couple generations, children have been constantly and relentlessly bombarded and saturated with sex, 24/7/365, on internet, TV, cable, satellite, books, grocery store check-out line magazine racks, billboards, schoolyards... Heck, the FreeSex generation is now entering nursing homes. And even though there are, tragically, miscreants unclear that sexual assault is "bad", I remain skeptical that the cause for that cultural deficit is a lack of sex classes being taught by Government employees at State U.

OTOH, I also have a keen appreciation for irony and so I've always enjoyed the notion that the people lecturing that "Government Should Get Out of My Bedroom" are often the identical people lecturing that "Government Should Get in Your Kids' Bedrooms". Sauce for the goose...
 
I think we've gotten a bit off topic. Maybe move the conversation to the General Discussion section? Please?
 
Cerberi said:
I would speculate the OP has received enough input to make his decision on which undergraduate program is best for him
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I disagree, the question was something along the line agree or disagree "the quality of education and instructors at USAFA is severely lacking in many ways."

Somewhere, we went off track.
 
OK I had to post this. I have one daughter who graduated from MIT in Aero/Astro. Graduated on a Friday and went to work on Monday for an R&D firm. Pay was significantly more than a 2Lt. Did extremely well but after a year figured out she didn't want to spend the next 10 years in a cubicle. Off to med school. Other daughter is graduating from the USAFA next month. Waiting to see in a couple of years if her choice of AFSC or even the AF in general is what she really wants to do in life. She will immediately have more leadership responsibilities than her sister did and that is a huge part of the SAs.
 
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