The USAF Lobby strikes again

tpg said:
"As a Bronze Star (with V) and Purple Heart Recipient who lost his leg, this is spitting in my face," said Gunnery Sergeant Dave Boire, a Marine veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/combat-award-for-drone-pilots-ridiculous-2013-2#ixzz2LBG3VZRK
Click to expand...

Then GySgt Boire should also feel like he is being spat at when FOGOs (and other senior officers) are getting DDSMs, DSMs, DSSMs, and LOMs. He clearly was in the line of fire --- these other officers weren't, didn't lose a leg, and they were able to go home at night and enjoy their loved one. If you are going to complain about this medal, why not the others? Because there is more "responsibility/accountability" on their shoulders? The darn GySgt did something heroic and lost a leg (and I'm sure others have gone above and beyond that), yet we award medals more senior to people that all they really have to do is pick a COA? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
 
Last edited:
usnabgo08 said:
Then GySgt Boire should also feel like he is being spat at when FOGOs (and other senior officers) are getting DDSMs, DSMs, DSSMs, and LOMs. He clearly was in the line of fire --- these other officers weren't, didn't lose a leg, and they were able to go home at night and enjoy their loved one. If you are going to complain about this medal, why not the others? Because there is more "responsibility/accountability" on their shoulders? The darn GySgt did something heroic and lost a leg (and I'm sure others have gone above and beyond that), yet we award medals more senior to people that all they really have to do is pick a COA? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Click to expand...

those are not combat medals and everyone knows it.

My ARCOM V means a ton more to me than my MSMs.
 
GoArmyBeatNavy said:
those are not combat medals and everyone knows it.

My ARCOM V means a ton more to me than my MSMs.
Click to expand...


The Distinguished Warfare Medal isn't a combat one either:

The medal provides distinct, departmentwide recognition for the extraordinary achievements that directly impact on combat operations, but that do not involve acts of valor or physical risk that combat entails,” Panetta said.
Click to expand...

I guess when CENTCOM gets his award, his work had no direct impact on combat operations either.

I know I am not going to change minds, but I can clearly see why the medal was created and placed where it is. I'd agree that any award for valor (whether MOH to the V device) is unique and probably would be the one someone would most cherish since it is a statement of character. As we know, DoD doesn't order medals by valor alone and this new one isn't a testimony of character, rather the larger affect/effect and scope one's (or more) work has accomplished. I can't speak for drones, but I can for cyberspace.
 
Last edited:
tpg,

The only thing I could surmise is that since the actions/achievements support combat, somehow it is "combat related." The links you posted are the first time I have even seen the medal termed "Combat Related." Even the DoD press releases don't use that term. I would agree with you that it should not be considered combat, in of itself. I never heard of anyone relating cyber and combat in the same sentence. It is a "warfare" area but not combat. Does it support those in combat/combat zone? Definitely.

I also would agree with you that drone pilots or cyberwarriors are not heroic in the sense of combat (valor) and I completely understand your sentiments -- those guys volunteered to be in the line of fire and no medal or appreciation will ever be enough for the life they honorably sacrificed.

I hope NO drone pilot or cyberwarrior would ever refer to themselves to being in combat, unless they actually had been there.
 
While it seems pretty sketchy to have to rely on the good sense of politicians to rectify this nonsense- it appears that there is someone in DC who hasn't completely lost their mind completely.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/03/military-bill-would-knock-down-rank-of-drone-medal-030713w/
Congressional opposition continues to grow to a Pentagon decision to create a new medal for drone operators that ranks higher in precedence than the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.

Four senators — two Republicans and two Democrats — introduced a bill Wednesday that would prevent the new Distinguished Warfare Medal from ranking ahead of medals awarded for direct combat. It allows the Defense Department to go ahead with an award for extraordinary achievement in cyber warfare and for operators of unmanned aerial vehicles, but it would make certain the new medal ranks behind the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.
Click to expand...
 
“Awards earned in combat for heroism, patriotism and a commitment to make the ultimate sacrifice for the freedoms we enjoy every day should not rank below a medal earned in relative safety...."
Click to expand...

Ok, back to one of my points....if this statement above is to be made true, then we (DOD) need to look at ALL of the other medals earned in "relative safety" (i.e. DDSM, DSM, DSSM, LOM, etc). Most of the FOGOs who get these senior awards, are sitting at desks, making decisions, able to go home at night, not having to worry about being in the line of fire. If the above quote is the standard, then it shouldn't selectively apply to one medal, it should be consistent across the board.

Additionally, the criteria hasn't even come out....so who knows HOW it will be awarded.
 
usnabgo08 said:
..we (DOD) need to look at ALL of the other medals earned in "relative safety" (i.e. DDSM, DSM, DSSM, LOM, etc). Most of the FOGOs who get these senior awards, are sitting at desks, making decisions, able to go home at night, not having to worry about being in the line of fire..
Click to expand...
Are these FOGOs only in the Air Force or are they in other branches as well?
 
LineInTheSand said:
FOGOs are flag and general officers... aka admirals and generals of all shapes and sizes.
Click to expand...
Oooops. If we are going to discuss other branches and ranks that receive awards/medals without risk then we probably need a more accurate topic description.
 
The value of a SecDef who once was an Infantry Sergeant with a CIB- good call Secretary Hegel!:thumb: Why the heck it ever got as far as it did before somebody raised the BS flag is the still a mystery to me.
 
I sat on an AF medals board with 5 others charged with selection for award of combat medals. I can tell you a couple things.

The AF is very tough on threshold for award of BSM and higher. I would argue at least as high if not higher threshold than our sister services. I have seen AF junior enlisted receive a BSM from a sister service for duty that would not have passed if judged by the AF panel.

Board is comprised of sitting deployed combat group commanders and command chiefs. With sitting deployed wing CC leading.

Sitting on the board was humbling. Reading classified accounts of heroism, each story reading like the script of a movie, the medal citation glossing over the real story behind the bravery. Those classified medal justifications for silver star and above always included evidence collected by our cyber warriors. This generation of Americans has sacrificed a lot and I was honored to recognize those deserving.

Our cyber warriors also sacrifice alot. Their scars are mostly internalized when they return home to change diapers after targeting an individual for destruction, working to minimize collateral deaths. They don't deploy for a year. They are deployed in place. Spending years on end hunting down the worst our planet has to offer. Few of them will be recognized with this new medal, but I suspect the stories would impress a board of combat commanders.

Argue the order of precedence but don't vilify their contribution to our war effort.
 
Last edited:
bugsy said:
Our cyber warriors also sacrifice alot. Their scars are mostly internalized when they return home to change diapers after targeting an individual for destruction, working to minimize collateral deaths. They don't deploy for a year. They are deployed in place. Spending years on end hunting down the worst our planet has to offer. Few of them will be recognized with this new medal, but I suspect the stories would impress a board of combat commanders.

Argue the order of precedence but don't vilify their contribution to our war effort.
Click to expand...

No, they really don't.

They aren't "deployed in place." They're at home, where nearly all but the most sociopathically driven among us here would rather be. They don't HAVE to go home and "change diapers." They GET to go home and change diapers. There are literally hundreds of thousands of Americans who spent years of their lives hanging it all out there, hunting down the "worst our planet has offer" from a vantage point where those "worst" could reach out and touch them back. They didn't get to eat mama's casserole or read the kids a story. The didn't get to deal with their "internal scars" in their warm house after a dinner date with their spouse. They did it on the cold wet floor of COP Keating, or a worn-out mattress in a plywood B-hut they share with an acquaintance, or the tight berthing of a ship. After months and years, they came home to spouses they can't relate to and children who barely know them.

In the past month, 9 aviators (8 Army, one Air Force) gave their lives here. That's being a hero. That's being the man in the arena. That's sacrifice. Flying an RPA from a chair in Vegas is not. I doubt many in the RPA community would try to tell you it is.

The Air Force is full of heroes in this war, but these guys aren't among them. Nothing about being a hero involves pushing a button at Nellis, and comparing the drone drivers' "sacrifice" to the thousands upon thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen who've sacrificed years of their lives, and years of their families lives, is an incongruity that borders on laughable.

The medal is ridiculous, but it's just a medal. It's not that big a deal. No one is vilifying their contribution, but many are seeking a bit more perspective.
 
scoutpilot said:
No, they really don't.

They aren't "deployed in place." They're at home, where nearly all but the most sociopathically driven among us here would rather be. They don't HAVE to go home and "change diapers." They GET to go home and change diapers. There are literally hundreds of thousands of Americans who spent years of their lives hanging it all out there, hunting down the "worst our planet has offer" from a vantage point where those "worst" could reach out and touch them back. They didn't get to eat mama's casserole or read the kids a story. The didn't get to deal with their "internal scars" in their warm house after a dinner date with their spouse. They did it on the cold wet floor of COP Keating, or a worn-out mattress in a plywood B-hut they share with an acquaintance, or the tight berthing of a ship. After months and years, they came home to spouses they can't relate to and children who barely know them.

In the past month, 9 aviators (8 Army, one Air Force) gave their lives here. That's being a hero. That's being the man in the arena. That's sacrifice. Flying an RPA from a chair in Vegas is not. I doubt many in the RPA community would try to tell you it is.

The Air Force is full of heroes in this war, but these guys aren't among them. Nothing about being a hero involves pushing a button at Nellis, and comparing the drone drivers' "sacrifice" to the thousands upon thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen who've sacrificed years of their lives, and years of their families lives, is an incongruity that borders on laughable.

The medal is ridiculous, but it's just a medal. It's not that big a deal. No one is vilifying their contribution, but many are seeking a bit more perspective.
Click to expand...

Scoutpilot: Exactly!

Our cyber warriors also sacrifice alot. Their scars are mostly internalized when they return home to change diapers after targeting an individual for destruction, working to minimize collateral deaths. They don't deploy for a year. They are deployed in place. Spending years on end hunting down the worst our planet has to offer.
Click to expand...
Really?? In all seriousness someone actually would use the phrase "deployed in place"? Here's the difference: name one person "deployed in place" who has been a casualty- in fact name one who has been in a situation where they could have been a casualty? There is zero heroism involved in this job and it surely escapes me as to the nature of the "sacrifice" that someone "deployed in place" is exhibiting- in fact there is no where near as much sacrifice as a mess attendant aboard an underway submarine displays daily in the routine performance of their duties. These people who - to use the term- are "deployed in place" get to go home and change those diapers- they get to go home and see that brand new baby or the kid in pig tails or the new HS graduate son- that's what deployed in place gets. The lowliest E3 fuel handler or water purification specialist or finance clerk who never leaves Bagram doesn't get that much, and the families of that E3 don't get to kiss them good night, or smile with them for the camera. For those families- they are never quite sure if today was the day that the rear area became a combat area and they just don't know it yet. Using the term "Deployed in place" and speaking of their "sacrifice" is a misnomer and misreading of relative levels of sacrifice as any I have read.
This is an award of merit for a job well done in a non-combat situation - in other words - it's for exactly what an MSM is already given. So if they need a special medal- that's where the precedence should be. In fact I would argue that any award with a V device should rank higher than an award for merit, and then awards for merit in a combat szone should be above those given for merit in a CONUS position- (that is the next wrong that they can work on, one that has been going on for > 50 years), but Sec Hegel got this exactly right rectifying what his predecessor got exactly wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top