The weakening of Beast Barracks

HAWK- I won’t dispute your general premise. I didn’t do Air Assault but did Airborne, Ranger and several others over 20+ years. I was a grad from the mid 80’s. The experience is different in some ways and the same in others for my son. He was looking at my copy of the Mortar from Buckner and we had our solid green fatigues on with our steel pots. The facility’s had the same overall appearance today as then. There have been upgrades in some areas, not in others. We could all argue forever about what a “good Beast is” as well as what to expect once they get to the “real Army” a place I believe is all a figment of everyone’s imagination. Every unit is different, populated by leaders who do the best they can with what they have and the guidance and leadership they in turn receive from their higher. Units change over time based on priorities and personalities.

As for AAS, my son’s opinion was that much of the nit noid stuff they had to do was due to the fact that they had 7 days of real work/instruction to stretch into 11. That may have included some fluff time to account for bad weather, lack of birds, etc… They filled the white space with PT or other odds and ends. The cadre ranged from excellent to horrible. He had one Cadre member who liked to make the female cadets cry and told him and another that he did it to every female he taught in every cycle. Disillusioned is a good choice of words. I have told mine and his buddies that West Point is at the higher end of the bell curve for leaders, officers and NCOs. There are still some who slip through but once they get to the “real Army” they will experience a much larger cross section of the force and to be ready to deal with it, good and bad. Those NCOs at AAS, or some like them, will be your Platoon sergeants, squad leaders, etc… Read the recent issue of Army magazine about dealing with your NCOs, many similar stories from LTs and CPTs from the line units.

My son’s roommate had gone to Airborne and said it was a veritable vacation with weekends off and as long as you were slightly coordinated, a breeze. Is that better or worse than when I went and many were sent to the “gig pit” for additional “training”? Probably neither, just different. Both are fully qualified to exit an airplane in fright.
Tradition is important in that it helps to bind units and people together. The Army has worked hard to keep some traditions alive even as others fade away. The Academy is the same and always wrestles with what to emphasize. Too much of one thing over the other gets the mix out of balance for someone. I agree that West Point is one of the premier leadership schools. There are other schools that turn out great leaders as well. Not every General is a Grad. I have another one at Virginia Tech. The program there is different, not necessarily better or worse, just different. Better is always a relative term

BigNick- understandable. Goes to leadership again. My son's TAC made everyone goint to AAS or ABN to complete the PT requirements for the course under his supervision to include a practice 12mile ruckmarch and obstacle course for AAS so that his company would have no failures there. My son didnt undertand why this was necessary until he showed up and watched what happened on zero day
 
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Take Exception with "I blame a generation of leaders (O-5 and O-6) for whom...

I have to take exception with this ScoutPilot: "I blame a generation of leaders (O-5 and O-6) for whom 'combat' took place in an office (yes, I'm talking about the Supe and and Comm, and no I'm not afraid to say so)."

I spoke with my classmate, the Comm, in March, and he stated "as a combat veteran..." I enjoy most of your well-informed posts ScoutPilot but heard the story on this one from the Comm's mouth. Maybe you are more informed about his record than he is.

As far as Beast is concerned, yes, the Comm and I ate square meals, were "hazed", etc., in other words "The Corps has..." but I am not convinced that what I went through leads to better officers for today's soldier. From what I have heard and read, our recent Grads have done exceptionally well in combat. Isn't that an indication that West Point is doing its job, i.e. preparing our soldiers for America's wars (I think that is what MacArthur said)?

A couple of anecdotes along these lines: When General Pershing stated during WWI that the discipline of West Point would be the discipline of the Army, he had to revise his expectations after coming into contact with the "doughboys." From what I have read and what my MALO (he was active duty during WWI and a 1923 Grad who had lost a son who was a 1950 Grad and MIA in Korea in 1950) told me, the soldiers of his time did well in combat too! I also remember reading an article about some old Grads complaining about how standards had fallen. It was interesting to read that the old Grad was from the late 1800s and complaining about the Corps from the early part of the 20th Century! Isn't that when Patton, Eisenhower, Bradley, et. al went through? They did well in combat too!

Thankfully, 200+ years of West Point tradition is not unchanged by progress but adapts to prepare leaders of character to lead today's soldiers and in today's conflicts.

PS
My cadet just finished Airborne and found that the discipline and physical preparation at West Point for most of the cadets far surpassed the level of training and preparation evidenced in performance of the Airborne training by the current Army and members of the Marines, Navy and AF who attended. I've also heard from numerous sources that today's cadet is much more physically fit than were the cadets of my time. From what I've seen, I believe it. That doesn't exclude the slackers who seem to be given many opportunities to perform and don't. For some reason, many are still at the Academy. This may be changing.
 
Yes, you definitely end up with a tougher and more capable officer from that type of environment.

I blame a generation of leaders (O-5 and O-6) for whom "combat" took place in an office (yes, I'm talking about the Supe and and Comm, and no I'm not afraid to say so).

Generals are careerists. In this Army, today, numbers make careers.

According to the official bio, Comm, BG Martin, had two OIF deployment,

"1-10 Cav, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas and Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq; Commander, 1st Heavy Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Hood, Texas and Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq; "
 
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I am going off in a different direction, but what is the purpose of the Air Assault and Airborne school?

Become familiar with the air assault/air borne operation or get hazed for 10 days/21 days to earn the right to wear badges on your uniform?

Being a graduate of Air Assault (cadet), Airborne (pre-IOBC), and Ranger (post-IOBC), my opinion is that Air Assault and Airborne are more technical in nature and no reason to make it like a mini-Ranger school. I did Bradley Leaders Course and it was a gentleman's course. I don't hear anyone complaining about Bradley leaders course not being physicla challenging.

I believe things like "right of passage," "tradition," and etc, but if a task in military school has no clear purpose it doesn't belong there. Supposed push up builds upper body strength for rappelling, but how much upperbody strength can you improve in a week?
 
Regarding yelling, the current USMA teaching is that if you have to yell your leadership has failed. Which I can see, to a bit. Talk to current cadets and ask who they are most concerned with (Cadre/upper class). It's not the yellers, it's the ones who whisper. :smile: And, there are some generalizations which I wont' repeat about which types of UC's yell vs not. Hint: the yellers are not the hardest cadre, and certainly not the most respected.

You are comparing apples and oranges....

Yelling at a plebe was being used as an artificial stressor so you got used to being able to block out the noise in order to complete the job under pressure. It wasn't used as a form of leadership. I never saw a firstie scream at a cow or yearling to get something done. The same cow that screamed at you all during beast was the first one to give you a huge congrats when being recognized at the end of plebe year.

BTW, my beast squad leader was a yeller and I learned after plebe year that he was a genius, very nice, considerate and a great leader. He was on brigade staff as a firstie and became a Rhodes Scholar. While this guy was scary as a beast squad leader, that didn't define his leadership style.
 
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The point of my note is that the individual Cadets and West Point were at fault in the failure of a few Cadets in this relatively easy school. A special PT test using Airborne grading should be conducted before sending Cadets to Airborne school. I understand that there will always be some screw-up people. However, I can not help but think that the lack of a tougher Plebe year was a contributing factor.

100% Agreed, BigNick. This should not have occurred. Anyone not capable of passing should free up that slot for a better prepared cadet.

My understanding is there were multiple screening sessions for both Airborne and Air Assault, with the intent that any cadet sent would be capable of passing with ease. The cadets that we know were definitely screened. The AASLT screening included obstacle course, ruck marches, and APFT standards. (actually had to pass the APFT within N days of both ABN and AASLT) Plus a pack inspection since that get's many on day zero.

Apparently, some did not participate due to sports conflicts, being on profile, etc. And that may be where the problem is. But the intent was that you don't go if not ready.

We are seeing USMA APFT standards enforced more rigidly, but my view is that anyone who can't pass an APFT (less than 42 pushups would be failing for a male) was not screened properly. And that should be whether given by a black hat/shirt or USMA cadre. And we know Girls who can do more than that, 42 is just max for females. And some beat that.
 
You are comparing apples and oranges....

Yelling at a plebe was being used as an artificial stressor so you got used to be able to block out the noise in order to complete the job under pressure. It wasn't used as a form of leadership. I never saw a firstie scream at a cow or yearling to get something done. The same cow that screamed at you all during beast was the first one to give you a huge congrats when being recognized at the end of plebe year.

BTW, my beast squad leader was a yeller and I learned after plebe year that he was a genius, very nice, considerate and a great leader. He was on brigade staff as a firstie and became a Rhodes Scholar. While this guy was scary as a beast squad leader, that didn't define his leadership style.

I really like this post, billyb! :thumb:
 
You are comparing apples and oranges....

Yelling at a plebe was being used as an artificial stressor so you got used to be able to block out the noise in order to complete the job under pressure. It wasn't used as a form of leadership.

Fair enough. They still do much of that during CBT and during duties in hot companies, etc. (It was a favorite Laundry Detail trick in DS's company.... multiple Cows yelling mutually contradictory orders)

While I think we are saying similar things, it does appear that the USMA organizational mindset does seem to have shifted... Yelling should be used for effect. If that's all you do, then people become numb to it.
 
Why even have people in this forum who've done Air Assault?! Or gone to West Point?! We have the secondhand experts to tell us all how it works.

20 drops? Are you kidding me? We started with 103 and graduated 44. Must be some rigorous standard they're held to...

(PS I was the DHG of Air Assault Class 06-02 at the Light Fighters School. But I forgot that firsthand knowledge of a school, or USMA, or the Army, or combat, is meaningless on SAF).
 
Some good points here - Yelling and pushing Plebes to their limit is not a leadership technique but a way to increase pressure to see who can perform under stress. It is important to seperate the strong from the weak early in the process.
billyb has it right.
I do not want to sound like a jerk, but it is impossible for people who have not graduated from WP, airborne, ranger and had years in the military to really understand these issues. I am not suggesting that you not give your opinion - I am just saying that you can not have a "gut" feeling for these things without real experience in the army and WP.
 
Why even have people in this forum who've done Air Assault?! Or gone to West Point?! We have the secondhand experts to tell us all how it works.

20 drops? Are you kidding me? We started with 103 and graduated 44. Must be some rigorous standard they're held to...

(PS I was the DHG of Air Assault Class 06-02 at the Light Fighters School. But I forgot that firsthand knowledge of a school, or USMA, or the Army, or combat, is meaningless on SAF).

Well, one Air Assault class experience doesn't make you the expert. I graduated from Class 7-93 of 25th Infantry Divison Air Assault School, at Camp Smith, NY, Aka Camp Happy. I think my class of about 200, I think we lost about 40, some at the obstacles course, few at the rapple phase, more during sling load, and more at the 12 mile road march.


Air Assault class is not a Ranger class. I doubt the POI required getting smoked, proving something, or getting a demerit for unblacken canteen cover button .

I do hate the mentality of if the failure rate is high, that its not students fault rather there is something wrong with the course. At the same time, its stupid to spend money to send cadets/soldiers to training to just fail them based on some misguided notion that the school needs to be hard.

At the same time, don't you think only 44 graduating out of 103 is a bit high. With a such higher failure rate, I am thinking either many students were not prepared or not properly screened or instructors played games (i.e for a three mile run, running the first mile at 6 minute pace, then running next two miles at 9 minute miles to meet 8 minute mile pace for three miles).
 
Why even have people in this forum who've done Air Assault?! Or gone to West Point?! We have the secondhand experts to tell us all how it works.
I guess that is directed at me.... I'll let you guys make all the comments from here out. I'll make a note to myself... non-grads who have current observations from cadets & USMA staff should not respond to "The corps has" threads.

Consider my posts as data points on recent courses, no more no less.

I'm not qualified to comment on TCH, never tried to. I'll leave that to ring-knockers and current cadets.

Bignick, understand your point about the yelling as a tool. My comment was not based on a gut sense, it was a USMA staff comment to cadets headed into leadership positions. And was only mentioned as it may help explain the new mindset at USMA. Good, Bad or indifferent.

20 drops? Are you kidding me? We started with 103 and graduated 44. Must be some rigorous standard they're held to...

You missed the point, the number of drops was not the issue, the cadets actually expected more drops. It was the fact that the drops were not based on a standard, it was just a numerical thing. Once they got to mandated 20 the smoke backed off quite a bit. If you passed the tests, you moved forward. If not you recycled unless a day zero drop. The actual pass rate was lower, but 20 mandated drops was the early focus.

They knew it was not a serious selection type course, but they were just not impressed with the leadership. How the course was run, logistics, communications, mostly stuff unassociated with the course itself. Maybe it was just this batch of 101 cadre, who knows.

In some aspects this validates what SP has posted previously, they are just classes, with some tradition rolled in. Won't make you, won't break you, unlike the more serious courses.
 
Folks,

Please keep in mind that this is the USMA forum. This thread has somewhat veered off track. If you want to discuss Beast, this is the place. If you want to discuss other Army/military training programs -- including how USMA graduates perform in such programs/schools -- please take it to the "Life After the Academy" forum.

And a friendly reminder to respect fellow posters.

Thank you.
 
Well, that's gone and done it, usna1985. Ruined all the fun.

And just when I was going to relate MY horrible experiences in the AF's BG&T (Basic Golf and Tanning) course. I freely admit it; I sometimes still wake up in a cold sweat, shaking off the flashback nightmares from that inhumane and god-forsaken devil program.

Must have lost 6 good men that first day, when the Ranger cadre (Golf rangers, that is :wink:) told some of them in a not so nice tone to replace their divots and not mark up the green :unhappy:. (or maybe some of them just wandered off drunk looking for errant shots; I'm not really sure, the memory is fuzzy due to the number of margaritas by the 7th hole :rolleyes:). And Day 3! When they made us carry our bags for the front nine instead of letting us use the carts! :eek: I think we lost 20% that day from the exhaustion of it all! Brutal! :biggrin:

And some of those instructors we're just plain mean. Mostly shouters, who would not give you a fresh towel for pool time, just because. :frown:

I hear the standards have dropped since I went through; even letting some young punks use hybrid clubs now! :mad:

The again, I'm just a product of the 80s and 90s. Guess I should just go back and look after myself now, and more ways to screw up the military.... :rolleyes:
 
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One thought -the easing of Beast is probably just an evolutional society thing. Our society has grown soft - everyone has to be labled a winner - standards are adjusted down so the weaker people do not feel bad- political correctness - the last place team members get trophies so they won't feel bad etc etc. Just a reflection of our society.
I would agree with the above assessment. I also don't think it is West Point specific. A lot of the restrictions that Beast cadre have when dealing with New Cadets are restrictions to physical correction I noticed NCOs faced out in the Big Army while on CTLT.

The standards in the Corps have also lowered. Look at pictures and note trousers that are too long
At some point during the past year there was a much talk about how trousers were too short. In my company we had to get our pants tailored so that when standing the bottom of the pants touched the edges (the edges you'd put edge dressing on) of our low quarters.

Unless of course you mean longer than that.

A final thought - I love West Point and am a loyal grad- it is in my DNA- and I think West Point remains the best school in America and manages to graduate hundreds of exceptionally fine men and women every year. We just need to tighten the standards and enforce those standards. I believe the vast majority of grads and current Cadets would agree.
I think the biggest reason we have what we have today is because some standards are arbitrary and some are necessary. I think that an effort to remove arbitrary standards (like table duties which take too long and prevent people from eating) results in removing some that matter (like physical fitness standards).

Beast was easy. The Academic Year is far more difficult (because the stress of time management is more difficult than Beast could ever hope to be).

But even that isn't so hard. I still think the hardest part of West Point thus far has been getting in, and of course staying in.

When I was in beast (almost 20 years ago).....
* We had to ping everywhere we went, brace during meals
* Were starved due to not eating much b/c we couldn't perform table duties in a timely manner (kids were eating toothpaste b/c they were so hungry)
* We were screamed at constantly and from every direction

Looking back on it... was there any reason for all of this? I think there was. A lot of new cadets didn't make it thru Beast and that was by design. They couldn't handle all of the different pressures (no sleep, no food, constant yelling) and in my view this was better found out earlier rather than later. Being able to effectively function under stress like that is imperative as an Army officer.

That isn't saying that there aren't a ton of great kids, that didn't go thru this type of beast, graduating every year. On the flip side, there are those that won't be able to perform well under stress and they make it thru under the kindler/gentler system.

I don't think anyone would agree that a system that views sustenance as a reward for being competent is a good system. There needs to be balance between enforcing standards and being ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous.

My cadet just finished Airborne and found that the discipline and physical preparation at West Point for most of the cadets far surpassed the level of training and preparation evidenced in performance of the Airborne training by the current Army and members of the Marines, Navy and AF who attended.

I'm sure it's not Army wide, but I and another cadet were both more physically fit than the majority of the soldiers in our company at CTLT (the only exceptions were one of the PSGs, an E3, and one E2 who all ran sub 12 minute two-miles). However, I don't attribute this to West Point success, but to the failure of the PRT system.



Ultimately, there are good Cadets and there are bad Cadets. I think the major problems facing West Point are problems that face the Army at large. I don't think West Point is so cut off or different from Army practices that it can be looked at uniquely in regards to changing standards. The same things I would say about 2016's Beast are generally the same things that some soldiers would say about current basic training standards. I just hope we figure it all out before it hurts us too badly.
 
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Well, that's gone and done it, usna1985. Ruined all the fun.

And just when I was going to relate MY horrible experiences in the AF's BG&T (Basic Golf and Tanning) course. I freely admit it; I sometimes still wake up in a cold sweat, shaking off the flashback nightmares from that inhumane and god-forsaken devil program.

Must have lost 6 good men that first day, when the Ranger cadre (Golf rangers, that is :wink:) told some of them in a not so nice tone to replace their divots and not mark up the green :unhappy:. (or maybe some of them just wandered off drunk looking for errant shots; I'm not really sure, the memory is fuzzy due to the number of margaritas by the 7th hole :rolleyes:). And Day 3! When they made us carry our bags for the front nine instead of letting us use the carts! :eek: I think we lost 20% that day from the exhaustion of it all! Brutal! :biggrin:

And some of those instructors we're just plain mean. Mostly shouters, who would not give you a fresh towel for pool time, just because. :frown:

I hear the standards have dropped since I went through; even letting some young punks use hybrid clubs now! :mad:

The again, I'm just a product of the 80s and 90s. Guess I should just go back and look after myself now, and more ways to screw up the military.... :rolleyes:

Au contraire, things are much tougher these days. There are Gobi-like sand traps and opaque, mephitic water hazards surrounded by fields of Canada Goose droppings. And that's just the par 3 course.
 
As current Beast Cadre (all the new cadets are at a brief so I have a moment...), I'm physically ill watching morning PT. There are NCs that can't make it 600 meters at an 8 minute pace. They just give up. A new cadet cried and went to the hospital for a panic attack because her squad leader made her go back up and get her patrol cap which she forgot even after being reminded three times to bring it. He is possibly going to get punished for his harsh tactics.

The NCs are also catching on that I am EXTREMELY limited in what I can do to punish them so they talk outside all the time, fall out, take big bites, fidget in formation, etc. And why not? There is honestly no punishment I can dole out that isn't considered borderline hazing.

I could go on for pages.
 
As current Beast Cadre (all the new cadets are at a brief so I have a moment...), I'm physically ill watching morning PT. There are NCs that can't make it 600 meters at an 8 minute pace. They just give up. A new cadet cried and went to the hospital for a panic attack because her squad leader made her go back up and get her patrol cap which she forgot even after being reminded three times to bring it. He is possibly going to get punished for his harsh tactics.

The NCs are also catching on that I am EXTREMELY limited in what I can do to punish them so they talk outside all the time, fall out, take big bites, fidget in formation, etc. And why not? There is honestly no punishment I can dole out that isn't considered borderline hazing.

I could go on for pages.
Hmm sounds like you will have to figure out a new approach to get your NCs ready.
 
Hmm sounds like you will have to figure out a new approach to get your NCs ready.

Now that is an uninformed statement if I have ever heard one. There is a certain amount of discipline that every soldier (no matter the rank) needs to possess and they don't learn it by asking them nicely. That is what beast and plebe year are for. That is what basic training is for in the enlisted ranks. What is the NC going to do when they are a 2LT and their battalion commander rips them a new one for screwing something up? Tell the LTC they shouldn't speak to them in that manner? Tell the LTC they don't appreciate that leadership style? I would love to be a fly on the wall during that exchange.

Maybe the Army is a lot kinder and gentler since I left 10+ years ago, but I have seen Majors relieved on the spot by Generals. I have seen LTs get chewed out in front of their platoons by CPTs. I have seen CPTs/MAJs get blasted in meetings by brigade commanders over some mix up in slides. I personally had a battalion commander that chewed out all of his company commanders (in front of anyone and everyone) at least once a week. All of these things are very common.

Believe me... the NCs want to learn how to get yelled at and deal with it now in a learning environment rather than once they are in the real Army.

If the message the CBT cadre posted is accurate, that is truly a sad turn of events.
 
I am lucky enough to be the proud father of twin sons training to server their country, one West Point class of 2016, the other just finished his 2nd week of USMC boot camp in San Diego. Sunday night we got our first call from our new cadet (after only 6 days of CBT), first words out of his mouth "this is way easier than I thought"; today we got our first letter from our Marine Recruit (there will be no phone calls for the entire 13 weeks), 2nd sentence: "This place sucks balz - straight up".

I'm just saying.
 
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