They grow up fast in ROTC...

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Fastpitch, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    I have read many posts from proud parents describing how much their daughter or son has matured in ROTC. I have one to add--

    My daughter showed up this past Fall as a freshman 3 Yr. AD scholarship recipient, somewhat out of shape, especially for the run. She failed the first PT test by a large margin! Her second test she almost passed, then she passed on the third and fourth tests, getting I think 225 on the last test before the Break.

    Her first test of this year was this week. She worried she wouldn't pass, but did pass, but not by much!

    So, all the time I'm thinking I should be either encouraging her or admonishing her to go way beyond the minimum, to really put a lot of effort into seeing how quickly she can get to the triple 100 score, rather than just passing. But I held my tongue.

    Today she called to say:
    "Dad, I had an epiphany. I realize I owe it to everyone else in the Battalion, especially those who are not on scholarship, to do the very best I can. To be an example, to be a leader. I feel bad about not giving it full effort up until now. I'm really going to put a lot more effort into getting high PT scores."

    I'd say she's starting to grow up.
     
  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Great story

    One thing to keep in mind. 3 year AD Scholarships are not guaranteed. The PMS will evaluate your daughter toward the end of this semester and make the decision to allow her to continue in the program and receive the 3 year AD Scholarship, it is all up to the PMS.

    Sounds like your daughter has seen the light, just let her know that she has a very large incentive to continue to improve. Dhe seems to have the right attitude but remmember, she's not on scholarship yet so keep working hard.

    Best of luck to your daughter.

    Your right, it's great to see them grow up right before our eyes.
     
  3. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Good for her. Awesome!
     
  4. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    Awesome Post - They are growing up. Best of Luck for her. It is their time.

    Some guy from New Jersey wrote this in a song 30 plus years ago


    I stood stone-like at midnight suspended in my masquerade
    I combed my hair till it was just right and commanded the night brigade
    I was open to pain and crossed by the rain and I walked on a crooked crutch
    I strolled all alone through a fallout zone and come out with my soul untouched
    I hid in the clouded wrath of the crowd but when they said "Sit down," I stood up.
    Ooh... growin’ up
     
  5. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    It's good that she's realizing this. First off, she's right from a philosophical standpoint.

    Secondly, and more importantly, even a 225 is an embarrassment for an officer (especially a female).

    A great way to lose your job as an officer is to fall out of a unit run. If she is struggling with the women's run standard, that's almost a guarantee.
     
  6. AscoreD

    AscoreD Member

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    It's a slow and steady climb, as I've had my fair share of failures here too. It's just learning how to conquer the PT test. Improvement is the key though, as long as you improve, as is well.
     
  7. Ohio2015Parent

    Ohio2015Parent Member

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    Fastpitch,

    Slow and steady does indeed get there - but here are some tips you may want to pass on. Run everyday.(3mi is a good distance, little longer than the test and will help her have "some extra" when the test is only 2mi). Be careful not to overwork shoulders doing too much upper body - never heard of anyone hurting their abs doing too many sit-ups, but a lot of DS's MS1 group, including him, sustained shoulder strain injuries pushing too fast to regain their APFT scores after doing poorly on the first one this semester. Hope these ideas help her. When they've got the right attitude and a little time to work on it our kids can do wonders:thumb:

    OT, those that have been supportive of me and DS since his APFT run disaster, he took an APFT at his guard drill -- dropped a minute off the run(15:30)and he's back up in the 70's for the "ups" so he's back on track and has another school one in 10 days....might get of remedial PT(must have 220, passing all events).
     
  8. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    Agreed to the first point.

    To the embarrassment issue, there is a time element involved. There is no BEAST in ROTC. Different program philosophy, different resources, different training. The ROTC program is designed to have a college student prove they have what it takes to be an officer over a 2.75 year period, up through LDAC. They don't have to prove their fitness first semester, then have two more years to prove Scholarship, Leadership and Military bearing. They have 2.75 years to show all four elements of Officership. Lots drop out and can't hack it. For a student to hit 225 in 1st semester is not exemplary, but at the same time it is not an embarrassment because it is the first lap of a six lap race! Then 245 second semester (2nd lap), then 260 3rd semester, then 275 4th semester, etc. puts them on track to hit 300 by the end of 6th semester and LDAC. BTW, why is 225 more embarrassing for a female than 225 would be for a male?

    It's a progression. Not everyone enjoys physical training, or is fighting fit, right out of a no-sport summer after High School. That's why civilian college ROTC gives a new Contracted cadet a semester to hit 60/60/60 (or they are dropped), then expect 100/100/100 after 2.75 years of supervised training.

    As to the third point, about an officer dropping out of a run due to poor fitness, I agree ... but that doesn't relate to a cadet that is four years of training away from being in that situation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  9. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I would never claim to speak for Scoutpilot, ever, but if I were I would imagine it would be that a females requirements for the APFT are lower then the males meaning a 225 would have even lower numbers then a male with a 225. You are correct though, a 225 for a Male is pretty embarrassing as well.

    I may have been wrong in my original post so correct me if I am. I assumed that your daughter has a 3 year AD Scholarship and that she is a freshman this year. If that'a correct then she is not yet Contracted and won't be until the beginning of her sophomore year.

    It sounds good to look at ROTC as a 8 lap race but in reality it is not much different then the Academy in it's requirements and expectations of the cadets. A few years ago cadets could get away with a slow and steady progression, today the Army is making it's Contract Missions with cadets left over. This has made things much more competitive for cadets that have not contracted yet.

    As I stated above, the PMS will have final say on whether your daughter receives the scholarship and continues with ROTC next Fall. Cadets no longer have the luxury of slowly progressing, the cadre will select the best cadets to continue on.

    As I said the Contract Missions are getting smaller and most battalions have more MS1's then they have Contract Slots for, this means they will be cutting MS1 cadets based on their own internal OML. Cadets like your daughter who are not contracted during their MS1 year will all be competing for those slots, they won't be looking at a 2.75 year progression, they will be looking at what they are doing now. A slow progression through the 2.75 years may keep you in the program but it will not afford the cadet with many opportunities such as summer training programs which are given based on the battalion OML and most battalions have high APFT requirements just to be considered.

    As far as dropping out of a run, it very much relates to cadets. If a cadet drops out of runs during PT and is not contracted you can bet they will not be offered a contact. If they are contracted and drop out they will get the kind of attention from the cadre no cadets wants.

    Remember 3 yr AD Scholarships are not a guarantee, the cadet can still be dropped at the end of the freshman year.

    Don't take what I have said the wrong way, it's terrific that your daughter has realized she must work harder, some never come to that realization, she should be commended. The main point is, she needs to really work hard so she will be able to take advantage of that scholarship and get contracted, being towards the bottom of the APFT list will not help her.

    Best of luck to your daughter.
     
  10. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    good points jcleppe. I think I was reacting to a first semester cadet's score of 225 being "embarrassing"... which I don't think it is. Maybe other cadets who post here can give me insight as to what the range of scores are for a first semester MSI cadet, and where 225 fits in that range... which quartile whould that score fit into, on your campus, for first semester MSIs?
     
  11. Ohio2015Parent

    Ohio2015Parent Member

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    Ds's school a 225 would keep her out of remedial(5xweek)PT but would have placed her very low(bottom 25%)prior to this groups poor showing in January. Many MS1s had left in December well over 250 mark(male and female). DS was a 270 and gaining before he quit during the 6 week holiday break(dumb child:wink:) so now he's playing catch up and hoping not to lose the good grace of the cadre. Many other cadets had this same no workout plan over break so instead of having a moment to "shine" he simply let himself be one of the pack.

    Jcleppe mentions the number of contracts being reduced, DS's school typically contracted/comissioned 30-50 cadets a year. Next year(my DS is not contracted yet, SMP program)there will be 25 slots, 8 are taken by 4 year scholarship winners, so 45 SMP and a few 3yr ADs are competing on the internal OML for 16 slots for next fall. You may want to have your DD talk with her MS1 instructors to find out details for her school - Is there currently an internal OML, what are the breakdowns and where she might be on that list. That information may be helpful for her - its given DS a lot of motivation to get his PT scores back up to 270+ by March(he's well on his way:thumb:).

    Celebrate her new focus on PT and encourage her, like I'm sure you've been doing all along:smile:
     
  12. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    PT requirements as far as remedial vary from school to school. I can only speak for my son's school.

    My son is a MS1, his recorded APFT at the end of December was 317, the next was a 290 and it went down from there. There were a few with scores much lower and at least one has not passed the APFT as of yet, he got hurt just prior to the Dec. test so they are giving him a chance to pass the first part of this semester, he is a 4 yr scholarship cadet, they will drop him if he does not pass the next test.

    The required APFT score to keep off remedial is a 270 with a minimum of 90 points in each category. Like I said each battalion is different.

    Now with that being said, my son's battalion is saddled with , as the Master Sgt says.."One of the worst classes to come through school" Of the 19 MS3's only 4 passed the APFT when they got back from break. Needless to say they were furious.

    The MS4 class has an average APFT of around 290. The incoming MS1's have an average higher then the 3's. As you can tell there are a lot of cadets at remedial, most of them 3's.

    Battalions take the APFT seriously, some battalions more then others.
     
  13. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Wow!:eek:
     
  14. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I know, most failed the run which means intervals and running at most PT sessions. This is upsetting to say the least to a few of the MS1's including my son since running is not an issue for them, my son runs the 2 mile in the low 11's high 10's with a couple MS1's not far behind. They want more strength training keep pushing their scores higher. Son does work out on his own to make up for it. He cant wait til the next test to see his run time with all this run training they are doing.

    This years MS4's were a great class, every cadet that wanted AD got it and all but one received their #1 or #2 branch choice, I guess every battalion will have a bump in the road at one time or another. The MS1 and MS2 classes seem pretty strong, The issue for some reason is with the 3's. The new Cadre are working overtime to get them in shape. The previous cadre worked just as hard and they were making strides, I have no idea what the 3's did over summer and winter break, it seems not much.
     
  15. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    I don't understand why people are calling her out for getting a 225, she is just a MSI and most definitely will improve with time. If you would of told me that I would be almost maxing my run now at the beginning of my freshman year I would have laughed at you. I played baseball/wrestled and had never ran over a mile for time purposes in my life.

    Give her time, the mental attitude is at least there.

    Strength training w/weights in ROTC or body weight training? We tried the gym as a batt once for PT, it was horrible sight to see so many people with bad form.
     
  16. AscoreD

    AscoreD Member

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    You should see the guys when we play sports for PT or our intramural teams. It's quite amusing to see how the guys don't seem to have much hand eye coordination, but sure can master a PT test. I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I have good hand eye coordination as I've played sports all my life, and am now playing in college too, but have yet to master a PT test. :rolleyes:
     
  17. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    I find it interesting that the Unites States Army has initially (a year ago) identified the 2 mile run as being not the best measure of the type of cardio fitness most desired on the field of conflict. That is why they have designed a new PT test for ROTC and other soldiers in training, where the run is 1.5 miles, and added a standing broad jump, and a shuttle run, and modified the situp to be a "row" motion, all to be performed consecutively with minimal rest in between. http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/09/army-new-pt-test-could-get-more-demanding-091011/

    I don't know when this new test will hit the ROTC Battalions, but some I have read here on this Board are already incorporating it into their PT training sessions. I also don't know if it will be the official standard by the time MSIs are testing at the end of their MSIII years in the Battalions and at LDAC.

    **edit** I just found another article indicating that the discussion is still WIDE OPEN on the redesign. Most want pullups added, and if that isn't immediately feasible (as I recall from elsewhere, men have 40% more upper body strength per pound than do women), since the scale is so compressed -- a woman hitting 4 might be 100 points, 4 is 75 points, and 2 might be failing, to get much tighter in the regulations for a proper push-up. I found that here: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/09/army-new-pt-test-could-get-more-demanding-091011/ Importantly also, this last article says that commanders in the field want the 2 mile retained, because the last half mile is what measures heart (emotional, not physical).
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Interesting battalion, they must not have had many athletes apply to the school. I think most of the cadets at my son's school played at least one sport in high school. They seem to do quite well in the intramural games. Your right about the difference between athletes and APFT. There are a few D1 athletes in the battalion, the Track person, while a sprinter does well in the run but struggles with the push ups, the football players do well in push ups but struggle with the run. Funny thing is, the Tennis player gets a 300 everytime.

    Dunninla, it will sure be interesting to see what they finally come up with for the new APFT. If they do add Pull Ups that is going to hit a lot of cadets like a brick unless the battalion starts preparing them early. I'm still waiting to see how many sprained and broken anlkes they will have if they do the "Run on a 4" beam while carring a full Ammo box in each hand" The cadets will no doubt try to go as fast as possible, I don't think a lot of them could do that with empty hands without slipping, add that weight to each arm, I forsee a lot of ankle injuries. It will give a great advantage to any Gymnasts that join though.
     
  19. AscoreD

    AscoreD Member

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    We seem to attract the athletes that didn't have to throw a ball or anything of that sort. Some of our guys wrestled in high school and some did football, but not many did things such as basketball, baseball etc. Our school's known for our academics compared to our sister schools.
    I do agree though with your scenario of the football player and track player. I'm a hockey player, and I seem to excel at the pushups and do well with the situps, but struggle with the run. We have one other athlete who's a gymnast and she gets around a 340 or so every time (she can max the male pushup standard). But our company only has 2 collegiate athletes and both of us are female.

    I'm excited for the new APFT, it seems better suited for an athlete like me. :smile:
     
  20. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Your right, all around athletes will probably do well with the new APFT.

    You've got to love the Gymnasts and the Water Polo players, they just kill the current APFT. My son is the Tennis player, still not sure how that translates to the high APFT, average has always been around 330 plus, although he does take full advantage of the Rec on a daily basis, and has a killer overhand shot.

    Both collegiate athletes are female, very impressive, I bet you keep the boys on their toes.
     

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