This broke my heart

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by Exar Ganis, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. Exar Ganis

    Exar Ganis Member

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    http://www.westword.com/2003-07-17/news/honor-rolled/1

    I can't help but feel so awful for this young man, and others in his situation. There is something clearly wrong with the character development program at the Air Force Academy, and the commissioned officers that are supposed to watch over this program seem cruel and unsupportive. No empathy what-so-ever.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2008
  2. VMINROTChopeful

    VMINROTChopeful Member

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    the lie cheat and steal honor code is basic to all the service academies and the senior military colleges.

    they probably take it even more seriously at some places then others. VMI has a particularly serious interpretation:
    http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/vmi/vmihonor.html

    at VMI, official drumming out due to honor code violation is conducted at 3:33am, because 333 is half of 666, and they consider a person who has been found guilty of violating the honor code to be "halfway to hell"

    lies no matter how white are cause for drumming out. here is a case where seniors were hazing some freshmen and the freshmen lied to protect their abusers. the freshmen were found to be liars and drummed out.
    http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/vmi/v60.html

    i got a piece of regular mail yesterday from Pat Conroy. He is the author of "The Lords of Discipline" and a 1967 graduate of the Citadel, which is one of the schools that accepted me. about the Citadel he says this in the letter:

    "At the center of The Citadel education, the rock that anchors its soul, is the Honor System. I found the Honor System simple and profound, majestic and life-changing:

    'A cadet does not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do.'

    These words struck me as beautiful then and even more beautiful today. They provide the framework of cadet life. Plus the Honor Code is moveable goods, as it travels with you all your life. It is part of The Citadel education that is deathless and not for sale. It is what you get at face value when you meet the alumni of my college. Test us; it is part of our DNA. It is our password against chaos and disorder, the mark of our uniqueness."
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2008
  3. Duke

    Duke Member

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    I'm going to be a cadet at the Air force Academy for the class of 2012. I didn't know anything about the honor code before until recently when I was reading through a packet. I think there is something wrong with the system as opposed to the code itself. There are alternatives to dismissal. I don't think one young man's mistake merits the shattering of his dreams, his goals, his career, his dedication, and his aspirations to serve his country. It's a black eye for everybody.
     
  4. nick4060

    nick4060 Member

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    i think the honor code and the cadet system that goes with it is fine, but when appeals go up to the AD officers supervising- thats where the system could be improved. Shouldnt it be those officers' responsibility to look at these situations with a practical perspective: i.e. will the cadet make a good officer, precedence of previous cases, and the like.

    It sounds like the cadet got a bad deal, but it all comes down to the fact that he did lie...and resigned at his own will. He may have been able to stick with it and get it solved later on.
     
  5. Duke

    Duke Member

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    Had he not resigned, he would've been expelled most likely. If you are expelled, you would have to live the rest of your life stating that you were expelled from an academy when you are enrolling in any type of educational institution. I think that is why a lot of people choose to resign. In essence he leaves honorably. Can anyone tell me where it specifically states that you will have to enlist in the army or pay the government back for your education if you violate the honor code. It makes sense that you would have to do one of the two options if you decided to leave, but I still have a hard time believing that you would have to do one of the above if you did a white lie. Again, I know it's stated somewhere, but where do we officially agree on this as cadets when we enroll? What if we exaggerate when we talk? I noticed I exaggerate a lot unintentionally when I talk about things, especially if I'm all into it. I'm also alittle suspicious about head hunting as well. Is this common?
     
  6. SemperExcelsius

    SemperExcelsius USAFA Cadet

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    I'd like to hear the honor board side of the story... I know that the cadets are bitter about it and are most likely not going to make themselves sound guilty, but I really wonder what happens behind the closed doors. We probably will never know, but the article seems so anti-honor code that I find it hard to believe.
     
  7. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    The honor system has been revised and I think that, at least now, that's not an accurate picture of the system.
     
  8. upsidezdown

    upsidezdown Member

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    The fact that this type of 'kangaroo justice' happened in the first place is inexcuseable. I'm very glad to hear you say they've done something about it.

    The only time I ever lost interest in USAFA for a while was after I read about the rape cover-ups that happened in that same relative time period.

    One of the cadet-leaders in the article said "I dont want you in my Air Force"
    To that guy I say this: Guess what... I dont want to be in your Air Force if that's the kind of behaviour you condone! :thumbdown:


    In any case, I'm becoming very glad that I know two laywers personally and a third to a lesser extent.
     
  9. flyboy

    flyboy Member

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    wow...i really hope that isn't the air force academy i am going to come June 25. I know that this and other scandals happened a few years ago, giving ample time to fix the faults but.....i am still afraid.
     
  10. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    You should not be. So many things with this place are blown out of proportion. I have never felt like my religion has been bashed, sexually assaulted, worried about being hit by honor, or a host of other things this place has been accused of. Take what the medai says with a boat of salt.
     
  11. SemperExcelsius

    SemperExcelsius USAFA Cadet

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    ^^ Sadly that is the same for me... I know that the media exaggerates things like hornetguy said above.

    Lying aimlessly (or with aim), is not right, but It's a sad fact that all humans make mistakes. Yes, its absolutely true, "that small mistake could have cost over 20 peoples lives" in the military, which is a definite fact. But is mercy and forgivness not also essential human behavior? A blatant lie in the face of your superior that is pre-meditated should be punished IMO. But we all make slips. "To err is human" after all. I'm not certain of the details of the honor code though, so I may be wrong.

    Again, I wanted to point out that the article seems very biased to one side of the story. So I find it very hard to rely on it.
     
  12. flyboy

    flyboy Member

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    "boat of salt", very true hornetguy. and when i got to thinking about it, i remembered that the media is almost never "fair and balanced", and that reports usually side on one side. but you can't blame me for getting a little upset ;)
     
  13. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    I'll be sure to give you the real USAFA life in 3 days. ;)
     
  14. flyboy

    flyboy Member

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    Good! i know orientation really will help me with my many questions, probable misconceptions, and undiscovered facets of USAFA!
     
  15. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    Should be fun. dinner, swimming, guitar hero, reading, classes, and sightseeing. :)
     
  16. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    Yeah, that article does not reflect the current reality at USAFA.
     
  17. havoclax

    havoclax New Member

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    I feel for the guy- but he lied (and got caught lying).......lying, cheating and stealing lead to explusion.....no excuse- he had been there for 3 + years....you don't lie, cheat, steal or do drugs.......or your gone!

    Why did he lie? Only he can answer that question. It makes no sense-

    Hopefully he is working on his future....he can still be a pilot.......OTS/ROTC/ etc......Maybe Navy- they have many flight opportunities.....
     
  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I highly doubt that ROTC or OTS would either. Even if they did, I am sure they would not hand him a pilot slot, when so many young guys who have no strikes against them are fighting for one.

    I might sound cruel, but I have no pity. He knew the rules, he purposely broke them and that is it...end of subject. period. dot

    The military is full of rules, it is not up to the member to decide which one is okay to break. I have seen officers lose their command (only @ 4 mos ago) b/c he decided to have an affair and was caught. Who does it hurt when he cheats, most people will say the wife, but the reality is it hurts the morale of the squadron. How does he get away with it and not me? The same for this scenario, once we start painting shades of gray we have gone down a slippery slope that will be continually fought.
     
  19. mom3boys

    mom3boys Parent

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    So what happens now? Does he have mandatory service as an enlisted person, or does he repay the $$$$$ ?
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    My guesstimate is that he will have to repay...again I don't think the AF wants to ruin his life, but they also don't want him in it.

    They also may allow him to serve as a reserve for 8 yrs instead of 5 and dive.
     

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