This broke my heart

The end of the article says he chose a 4 year enlistment and is stationed at Beale AFB in Ca, working in the Comm Sqd. The Honor system is not something to get caught up in, and rarely has a positive outcome. It has also been my impression that most Cadets that do get caught up in it, have had other difficulties too. I was surprised by the statement his AOC "didn't want him in his Air Force". That tells me there was more than the article implies. It also say's his own roommate turned him in for being "OTF". His roommate when faced with the question "where is cadet X", would have been compelled to answer honestly "off base". He also could have been tired of carrying water for someone who thoughtlessly put his roommate in that position. just my 2 cents.
 
The link won't load up for me, at all, so I haven't been able to read the article. My comment, therefore, may be coming from left field.


Honor codes and honor concepts are preached from day one. A cadet or midshipman knows what is expected. Anyone who has trouble figuring out what "truth" he is going to us for an excuse has a problem, there is only one truth. During my cadet career I put two people up for honor offenses, both were recommended for disenrollment. One was retained and the other was recommended for disenrollment but the Commandant of Cadets but was retained by the admiral in the end. Do either of them belong? I doubt it. Will they get their commissions? Looks like it, but if I have to deal with them, I can't give them the automatic benefit of the doubt, they've already sacrificed their honor.

In addition to the two members I wrote up, I was also indirectly involved with a cadet who, while I was standing duty, snuck out and headed to a party for her birthday. When I checked her room, she had marked on her board that she was "in for the night", when in fact she had left. Her roommate brought it up to teammates when she figured it out, the girl was reported, and investigation began in which I had to give a statement, and she was recommended for disenrollment and then disenrolled.

Do I feel bad about any of this? No. It speaks to character, and if someone is so willing to sacrifice their honor to avoid punishment, are you sure they would not also be will to sacrifice your career, or the careers of your comrads?

I will admit there are some honor offense that arrise for other reasons. A poorly worded colaboration policy for a class for example, but blatant honor offenders do not deserve or belong in the position to lead or direct others.

I came close once. After an honors chemistry test we took, we received our tests and the instructor told us that we could make corrections and not to talk about it...well in the past we always compared to figure out what we did wrong (and normally we could not resubmit to get a better score). I turned to someone to ask a question about one of the questions I had got wrong, and she replied that I couldn't talk about it. I went to the instructor and told him that I had asked a question about one of the questions and wanted him to know. He said I could not get points back for that question, and I said Ok, I just wanted him to know, in case that would be considered an honor offense. Didn't mean for it to happen, and I took steps to ensure it was corrected.

I have trouble tolerating cadets or midshipman that apparently have no honor, but want people to look past that.


I make these comments, with no idea what the article said though, so if these comments are "out there", I apologize. :cool:
 
The link won't load up for me, at all, so I haven't been able to read the article. My comment, therefore, may be coming from left field.


Honor codes and honor concepts are preached from day one. A cadet or midshipman knows what is expected. Anyone who has trouble figuring out what "truth" he is going to us for an excuse has a problem, there is only one truth. During my cadet career I put two people up for honor offenses, both were recommended for disenrollment. One was retained and the other was recommended for disenrollment but the Commandant of Cadets but was retained by the admiral in the end. Do either of them belong? I doubt it. Will they get their commissions? Looks like it, but if I have to deal with them, I can't give them the automatic benefit of the doubt, they've already sacrificed their honor.

In addition to the two members I wrote up, I was also indirectly involved with a cadet who, while I was standing duty, snuck out and headed to a party for her birthday. When I checked her room, she had marked on her board that she was "in for the night", when in fact she had left. Her roommate brought it up to teammates when she figured it out, the girl was reported, and investigation began in which I had to give a statement, and she was recommended for disenrollment and then disenrolled.

Do I feel bad about any of this? No. It speaks to character, and if someone is so willing to sacrifice their honor to avoid punishment, are you sure they would not also be will to sacrifice your career, or the careers of your comrads?

I will admit there are some honor offense that arrise for other reasons. A poorly worded colaboration policy for a class for example, but blatant honor offenders do not deserve or belong in the position to lead or direct others.

I came close once. After an honors chemistry test we took, we received our tests and the instructor told us that we could make corrections and not to talk about it...well in the past we always compared to figure out what we did wrong (and normally we could not resubmit to get a better score). I turned to someone to ask a question about one of the questions I had got wrong, and she replied that I couldn't talk about it. I went to the instructor and told him that I had asked a question about one of the questions and wanted him to know. He said I could not get points back for that question, and I said Ok, I just wanted him to know, in case that would be considered an honor offense. Didn't mean for it to happen, and I took steps to ensure it was corrected.

I have trouble tolerating cadets or midshipman that apparently have no honor, but want people to look past that.


I make these comments, with no idea what the article said though, so if these comments are "out there", I apologize. :cool:

i think what upsets ppl the most about the 1st case mentioned in the article was that it was supposedly a mistake which he corrected, but he was still kicked out.

summary: protagonist is a 1/c at USAFA and has a leadership position in his squadron. previous policy at USAFA was that after final classes on Fridays, cadets are excused and can leave. but they changed that rule so leaving after classes on friday was now considered being "over the fence" (OTF). however, cadets went OTF all the time (and presumably were punished for it all the time too). on one particular friday, the protagonist plans with some friends to go OTF to DENVER for some partying. but at the last minute, a friend ask him to go have a drink with him in COLORADO SPRINGS. off he goes OTF. while he's in town, he calls his roommate every few mins to see if anything is up. all of a sudden, he gets a call from his squadron commander. gig is obviously up - roommate ratted him out. he rushes back to see his squadron commander. instead of the usual punishment for OTF, his commander says he is stripping the protagonist of his leadership position. he is very flustered and upset about this punishment. then the squadron commander asks him where he went. Upset, he says DENVER because it was where he originally planned to go OTF with his other friends. he notices his mistake, but thinks OTF is OTF. the punishment won't change if it is DENVER or COLORADO SPRINGS. The next morning, protagonist decides he should clear this up. he goes himself and tells his commander that he misspoke because he was flustered. he had gone to COLORADO SPRINGS and not DENVER as he said the previous night. initially, the commander wasn't upset, but various inquiries resulted, honor court, disenrollment, etc. all centering not on the OTF, not considering he had himself come back to correct the error/lie/mistake, but only on DENVER =/= COLORADO SPRINGS. end result, kicked out a few weeks before his graduation from USAFA. because he was unable to reimburse the govt for his education, the USAF put him in active duty status as an enlisted Airman where he had to work off his education - it would take 5 yrs. no more USAF pilot dreams for the protagonist. (whew)
 
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Well, thank you for the summary, much appreciated.


Ok, so now I guess I can give my personal opinion.


1. He should have been stripped of his command position, something I've seen done at my alma mater too, more than once.

2. I wonder what exactly happened in period that he changed his story from Denver to Colorado Springs. I don't know, was Denver excusable and Colorado Springs not? Waiting a few days to change a story starts you down a path...and some will question "why not fix it on the spot". Had that happened, I'm sure it would have been ok.



Is there a "now, the rest of the story" here?
 
Well, thank you for the summary, much appreciated.


Ok, so now I guess I can give my personal opinion.


1. He should have been stripped of his command position, something I've seen done at my alma mater too, more than once.

2. I wonder what exactly happened in period that he changed his story from Denver to Colorado Springs. I don't know, was Denver excusable and Colorado Springs not? Waiting a few days to change a story starts you down a path...and some will question "why not fix it on the spot". Had that happened, I'm sure it would have been ok.



Is there a "now, the rest of the story" here?

yeah, the "now" is after this happened, he was so burnt on USAF that he just wanted to do his time and get out. but being Airman was his first real job. they gave him responsibility and he did well and progressed. all of the ppl who he works with who heard the story were real sympathetic. so "now", he is again dreaming about being a pilot for USAF. maybe ROTC or OCS or something like that. but some ppl on this forum are saying not a chance.

also, his point even now is that he doesn't understand why it was such a big deal. according to him, being OTF is being OTF no matter if it was denver or colorado spring. the punishment is the same. so he claimed he had no motivation at all to lie on purpose. but the fact that he said the wrong place and then he himself corrected it without anyone else's prompting a few hours later, should be enough. he asked them to believe it wasn't a lie but just a mistake due to the stress of his losing his leadership position. but the honor court relied on the following two rules:
"If you knowingly allow a misunderstanding or misperception to stand, you may have allowed a lie to be created and may have violated the Honor Code."
...
"Any statement made under stress, if intended to deceive, is still a lie, regardless of whether or not the statement is corrected. A momentary lapse of integrity still violates the Honor Code. Such emotional appeals as, 'I didn't mean to lie...it just came out,' do not exonerate a cadet of his or her intent. Even in the most stressful of circumstances, cadets are faced with a fundamental decision; to be honest, or not. The split second when we make that decision is often where intent is determined, and if we choose not to be completely honest, our next action will likely be an act in violation of the Honor Code."

pretty harsh. :(
 
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Ah, but the punishment is punishment arguement doesn't really apply. A vast majority of honor offense would have been just regular conduct offenses had the member not lied.


While I was OOD, I had to find someone who had been missing, and I thought they may have gone somewhere because someone was hurt, well it turns out I had heard the wrong thing, and the person said they had gone somewhere else....blah blah blah...I thought I had gotten to the end of it and a "well don't be late next time, training is important" would have been warranted until I found out that she hadn't gone anywhere. She instead slept in. She lied about SLEEPING IN! That's a minor issue, IF someone wanted to hand out demerits, I think it would have been...3 demerits.

Instead, she lied, got an honor offense and was recommended for disenrollment. She recanted, sure, but only after the pressure built up. She was a good person too, don't get me wrong, but in a very minor issue, she sacrificed her honor to save her bacon and it came back to bite her.
 
Ah, but the punishment is punishment arguement doesn't really apply. A vast majority of honor offense would have been just regular conduct offenses had the member not lied.


While I was OOD, I had to find someone who had been missing, and I thought they may have gone somewhere because someone was hurt, well it turns out I had heard the wrong thing, and the person said they had gone somewhere else....blah blah blah...I thought I had gotten to the end of it and a "well don't be late next time, training is important" would have been warranted until I found out that she hadn't gone anywhere. She instead slept in. She lied about SLEEPING IN! That's a minor issue, IF someone wanted to hand out demerits, I think it would have been...3 demerits.

Instead, she lied, got an honor offense and was recommended for disenrollment. She recanted, sure, but only after the pressure built up. She was a good person too, don't get me wrong, but in a very minor issue, she sacrificed her honor to save her bacon and it came back to bite her.

i think in your example, there was a small difference of 3 demerits between the punishment for what she claimed (being someplace else) instead of what she actually did (sleep). but in his case, he was claiming there was no difference at all. i think he only stresses this punishment thing to try to show that he had no motivation to lie. sort of a "i know you think i lied on purpose, but why would i have done that? i had no reason to!"
 
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Maybe you're right. I would love to hear the other side though, we're only getting 50% of the story.
 
exactly i think that the AFA gets a lot of grief mabye some of it being stirred up by anti military people i mean the AFA is one of the best colleges around if you go talk to people who had the cadets over for dinner they will tell u that they r some of the nicest most respective young adults around i mean even in the AFA you're going to get an occassional trouble maker but its not nearly as bad as anything going on in other colleges. if u go onto a website that rates colleges the AFA is in the top ten for not getting drunk and doing drugs and as far i've heard they never had any shootings where the student went into the dorms and started killing people. u really have to worry about that at other colleges u never know when some maniac is going to pop up but the AFA does a very good job at avoiding scenarios like that
 
exactly i think that the AFA gets a lot of grief mabye some of it being stirred up by anti military people i mean the AFA is one of the best colleges around if you go talk to people who had the cadets over for dinner they will tell u that they r some of the nicest most respective young adults around i mean even in the AFA you're going to get an occassional trouble maker but its not nearly as bad as anything going on in other colleges. if u go onto a website that rates colleges the AFA is in the top ten for not getting drunk and doing drugs and as far i've heard they never had any shootings where the student went into the dorms and started killing people. u really have to worry about that at other colleges u never know when some maniac is going to pop up but the AFA does a very good job at avoiding scenarios like that
 
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