This is why fitness matters

[kp2001]

2. My comment about being mandatory that MabryPsyD set upon was a joke, because kp2001 kept typing "EFMP" instead of "EFMB." EFMP is the Exceptional Family Member Program, not the Expert Field Medical Badge.

I screw it up in one post (twice in the same post), correct it in my next post before I get called out on it AND you still give me crap about it

That's cold blooded

 

[scoutpilot]

I'd much rather have a fat, highly competent and skilled physician than worry if they can complete a certain physical fitness event.

If only it were possible to be both physically fit AND skilled as a physician...

 

[scoutpilot]

I screw it up in one post (twice in the same post), correct it in my next post before I get called out on it AND you still give me crap about it

That's cold blooded

 

[usna1985]

As noted, why isn't anyone more concerned about the 80% who failed than the one who passed?

 

[MemberLG]

So someone overcoming a personally difficult situation isn't worth a "good job", but rather a berating for doing something that is outside their "normal"?

This soldier didn't post this herself, she didn't ask for the attention, she merely overcame a hurdle. (And one according to some that they've seen infantrymen fail)

Heck who knows maybe she had Montezumas revenge all day before...

I get it, she didn't solve the Middle East crisis, but give her credit for not stopping.

Perhaps it came out as some of us are not thinking highly of the CPT. This discussion is not about the CPT, rather the reaction and perception of the video. We can go on what if whole day, but end of the day our comments should be based on what is on the video and other comments. No disagreement from me if the CPT had Montezumas revenge or broken foot, big blister on her heel, or whatever, she gave 100%.

Should we automatically think highly of everyone (i.e. it's not mandatory, she could have been sick, she didn't post it herself, had 17 minutes to spare) for doing something or should we make comments on what we see (i.e. a soldier struggling to finish a 12 mile road march). This will probably get me banned, but would the reaction have been same if the person on the video was an Infantry soldiers struggling to finish his 12 mile roach march and have gotten same level of attenion?

Scout's message was

Because when you're not fit, you end up looking like a joke, collapsing in front of your soldiers, using your weapon as a crutch while putting your face over the muzzle. 12-mile ruck marches are a semi-annual requirement for every MOS, and a quarterly requirement for almost all Operations MOSs in the Army.
Don't be this officer

After re-reading, "officer" is not necessarily the officer struggling in the video, rather any officer struggling to do something physical fitness related.

 

[kp2001]

would the reaction have been same if the person on the video was an Infantry soldiers struggling to finish his 12 mile roach march and have gotten same level of attention

I don't know if the global reaction would have been different, I can see both sides:
1) a struggling soldier doesn't give up
Or
2) an infantry soldier struggles to finish a 12 mile march....shame on them.

But in this video we are talking about a Veterinarian, not an infantry soldier and we have to take the whole context into account. In my opinion an infantry MOS means one should be fit enough to overcome this type of ordeal and still be ready to fight, that's the whole point of their job, fight the fight. A medical specialists job is to be the best they can at their specialty, sometimes that comes at the expense of physical fitness and might mean someone struggles to finish a 12 mile march.

Heck the only reason I even looked at the thread and watched the clip/read the articles was because it mentioned Army Health.

 

[Freda'sMom]

Maybe we should give the Captain the benefit of the doubt since we will never get her full medical evaluation.

Much easier to start a thread to mock her with arrogant superiority.

 

[scoutpilot]

Much easier to start a thread to mock her with arrogant superiority.

It's almost as though I take leading from the front seriously. But I suppose it's easier to make excuses for poor performance than hold anyone to a standard.

 

[scoutpilot]

As noted, why isn't anyone more concerned about the 80% who failed than the one who passed?

Because most of EFMB is one-and-done tests on medical knowledge, and most of the participants are enlisted soldiers. Anyone with professional medical training has a massive advantage in that regard.

 

[Boozebin]

Wow just got on to get caught up on some threads and boy this one turned out to be a big one. Sorry if I started something. I was and to be honest still am confused if the 12 mile march is a semi-annual event for the entire Army or are there exceptions based on MOS. I think it is based on Scouts comments but still not sure.

The reason I asked that specific question is because it puts a different perspective on the video for me. Also understanding that this 12 mile march is outside of that semi-annual requirement also makes me view the video in a different perspective.

I think what some are trying to get at is the Army (and the greater military as a whole) is a fighting force first no matter if you're desk jockey or not you should be physically fit to meet those demands and as an officer you shouldn't just meet but excell those requirements. Kind of like the Marines mentality that everyone is infantry trained first then you have a job.

My take after reading and filtering out the unnecessary stuff in the thread I'm impressed that she finished hell I know I couldn't do it even when I was that young and that she's lucky that weapon wasn't loaded she might have caused serious injury to herself or others.

 

[scoutpilot]

she's lucky that weapon wasn't loaded she might have caused serious injury to herself or others.

"Welp, I'm pretty smoked. So much for muzzle awareness."

 

[MemberLG]

[

But in this video we are talking about a Veterinarian, not an infantry soldier and we have to take the whole context into account. In my opinion an infantry MOS means one should be fit enough to overcome this type of ordeal and still be ready to fight, that's the whole point of their job, fight the fight. A medical specialists job is to be the best they can at their specialty, sometimes that comes at the expense of physical fitness and might mean someone struggles to finish a 12 mile march.

I don't disagree. If so, what's the difference between military medical professional and civilian medical professional?

If this Veterinarian never tried out for the EFMB, we would never had discussion. None of us ever questioned your ability to do a road march. By volunteering to try out for EFMB, she opened herself, unintentionally, to meeting certain physical standard she didn't have to meet in the first place.

 

[usna1985]

Because most of EFMB is one-and-done tests on medical knowledge, and most of the participants are enlisted soldiers. Anyone with professional medical training has a massive advantage in that regard.

First of all, we have no idea why the 80% failed.

Also, there do seem to be some items that require more than book tests -- or even practical tests -- on medical knowledge:

Land Navigation
Day and night land navigation courses.
Medical and Casualty Evacuation Tasks

• Evacuate a casualty using a SKED litter and litter carries
• Evacuate casualties using one- or two-person carries or drags
• Extricate a casualty from a vehicle
• Load casualties onto a helicopter, ground evacuation platform, and two nonstandard vehicles

Warrior Skills Tasks

• Correct malfunction of M16 or M4
• Disassemble, assemble, and perform functions check of an M9 pistol and an M16 (or M4) rifle
• Move under direct fire, react to indirect fire, and react to an UXO or possible IED
• Move over, through, and around obstacles

Here's the bottom line . . . if she had dropped out during the march or during any of the other evolutions, like some of the 80% failures probably did, there would have been no video and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

We don't know her time in the march but, let's assume for the sake of argument that she barely met the Army-mandated minimum. As Hawkeye Pierce (in)famously said, "If the minimum weren't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum." [Remember, M*A*S*H was a comedy!!]

Seriously, I get that it would have been better if she had finished the march, smiling and not out of breath and ready to walk another 12 miles. It would been better if she had earned the highest score, setting an example for everyone around her. But it would have been worse had she quit/failed. She didn't. She passed.

So let's agree to disagree on this one.

 

[StowieJ]

First of all, we have no idea why the 80% failed.

Also, there do seem to be some items that require more than book tests -- or even practical tests -- on medical knowledge:

Land Navigation
Day and night land navigation courses.
Medical and Casualty Evacuation Tasks

• Evacuate a casualty using a SKED litter and litter carries
• Evacuate casualties using one- or two-person carries or drags
• Extricate a casualty from a vehicle
• Load casualties onto a helicopter, ground evacuation platform, and two nonstandard vehicles

Warrior Skills Tasks

• Correct malfunction of M16 or M4
• Disassemble, assemble, and perform functions check of an M9 pistol and an M16 (or M4) rifle
• Move under direct fire, react to indirect fire, and react to an UXO or possible IED
• Move over, through, and around obstacles

Here's the bottom line . . . if she had dropped out during the march or during any of the other evolutions, like some of the 80% failures probably did, there would have been no video and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

We don't know her time in the march but, let's assume for the sake of argument that she barely met the Army-mandated minimum. As Hawkeye Pierce (in)famously said, "If the minimum weren't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum." [Remember, M*A*S*H was a comedy!!]

Seriously, I get that it would have been better if she had finished the march, smiling and not out of breath and ready to walk another 12 miles. It would been better if she had earned the highest score, setting an example for everyone around her. But it would have been worse had she quit/failed. She didn't. She passed.

So let's agree to disagree on this one.

She had 13 minutes and 20 ish seconds left. At that pace she could have done an extra mile... I say everyone ... says good job.

If you don't agree, then back off. If you don't back off, then agree. It's not about being an elite soldier, it's not about who's going to rescue the wounded puppy from combat, (lol combat vet,) it's just about the fact that she was tired. God, I hope my video never gets treated the way you guys treat her.

Women are physiologically weaker, so the fact that she made it in the same time required for a man is enough to make me proud of her. (If anyone makes that come across as sexist, .... You know what I mean.)

Go walk 12 miles and see how you feel... now roll your ankle, or knock your knee at the last mile, and don't you wish you could use a crush for support.

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[-Bull-]

She had 13 minutes and 20 ish seconds left. At that pace she could have done an extra mile... I say everyone ...says good job.

If you don't agree, then back off. If you don't back off, then agree. It's not about being an elite soldier, it's not about who's going to rescue the wounded puppy from combat, (lol combat vet,) it's just about the fact that she was tired. God, I hope my video never gets treated the way you guys treat her.

Women are physiologically weaker, so the fact that she made it in the same time required for a man is enough to make me proud of her. (If anyone makes that come across as sexist,.... You know what I mean.)

Go walk 12 miles and see how you feel... now roll your ankle, or knock your knee at the last mile, and don't you wish you could use a crush for support.

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Please screenshot this and re-read it in 4 years if you commission.

It is about being a more elite soldier, a soldier who is an Expert Field Medical Specialist. That's why the whole damn test exists. These are the people who perform medical care during combat operations, and those who earn the EFMB should demonstrate they know their **** and are able to perform those duties under stress, tired, hungry, and possibly after long foot marches.

But more importantly, it's about being an officer. A warrior-leader. Regardless of your specified job, we are soldiers first, and officers are expected to lead from the front and set the standards (and not the 180 APFT standard). The first day I walked into BOLC my battalion CSM walked up to us and said "if you're not prepared to pick up a weapon and destroy, neutralize, or suppress the enemy get the **** out right now." Physical fitness is part of that preparation.

I don't think anyone is downplaying her accomplishment by earning the EFMB, it's a great achievement, but if you're expecting me to jump for joy over her falling across a finish line while treating her rifle bore as a pair of binoculars, I won't be. It's expected of her that she can exceed the standards for a 12 mile ruck, that's part of the whole "being an officer" thing.

I also suggest you spend some time under a ruck before you tell others about how it feels.

Edit to add: There are 8 women at Ft Benning that probably think you're sexist.

 

[StowieJ]

Please screenshot this and re-read it in 4 years if you commission.

It is about being a more elite soldier, a soldier who is an Expert Field Medical Specialist. That's why the whole damn test exists. These are the people who perform medical care during combat operations, and those who earn the EFMB should demonstrate they know their **** and are able to perform those duties under stress, tired, hungry, and possibly after long foot marches.

But more importantly, it's about being an officer. A warrior-leader. Regardless of your specified job, we are soldiers first, and officers are expected to lead from the front and set the standards (and not the 180 APFT standard). The first day I walked into BOLC my battalion CSM walked up to us and said "if you're not prepared to pick up a weapon and destroy, neutralize, or suppress the enemy get the **** out right now." Physical fitness is part of that preparation.

I don't think anyone is downplaying her accomplishment by earning the EFMB, it's a great achievement, but if you're expecting me to jump for joy over her falling across a finish line while treating her rifle bore as a pair of binoculars, I won't be. It's expected of her that she can exceed the standards for a 12 mile ruck, that's part of the whole "being an officer" thing.

I also suggest you spend some time under a ruck before you tell others about how it feels.

Edit to add: There are 8 women at Ft Benning that probably think you're sexist.

The point is she made it... If she had three hours to make an extraction, she would have made it with 13 minutes to spare. It's not about whether she was ever going to be a ranger, going above and beyond what is physically expected of people. She made it, and in my perspective it doesn't matter that she struggled the last few steps. This ruck wasn't about being an elite soldier, or performing the duties of a medical practitioner in combat. It was about making the 3 hour cutoff.

Everything has a context, and should be viewed within its context. Sure, it would have been better, and she would have save a he'll of a lot of embarrassment, had she not losses her footing, took a second to recoup, stood up tall and not fallen over, and walked to the line. It's not what happened, but within this context, she is fine. Everybody just needs to calm down. Take a relaxative.

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[MedB]

Ok, so help this layman understand something...

• She met every criteria the Army set for this "elite soldier" specialist rating/badge
• She met them without help, special consideration or reduced standards due to gender
• She met them voluntarily, above and beyond what was expected or needed for her MOS/role
• She met them with enough time left that she presumably finished ahead of others
• She met them when 8 out 10 others (men and women) who tried could not

But because she's an officer, the belief is she didn't meet them well enough to at the very least avoid public ridicule. I know nothing about this course/badge so I must believe the knowledgeable folks here that it is in fact unacceptable and worthy of derision.

So can one of the people on this board who have passed this particular course please post the alternate requirements that the Army has established for officers vs enlisted? Thanks in advance.

 

[StowieJ]

I also suggest you spend some time under a ruck before you tell others about how it feels.

I would suggest you learn a little bit about a person before you make an attack at them. For all you know I ruck everyday. For all you know I could make that 12 mile with 40 pounds in 2 hours.

I debated whether I would bring this up, you have no way of verifying it. But I have personally summitted the highest mountain in Africa, (5985 metres,) under a full pack, at a fast pace, and I personally know what it's like to have that pack feel like it's crushing you. On the third day, with half the amount of oxygen you need to survive.

This isn't a place for you to impose your dominance on younger members. (Even if it is, who cares.) You don't need to shove being physically strong, warrior hearted, and go get'em down anyone's throat.

On the note of sexism, I could quote dozens of scientific journals that prove my point, a d if you'd like I will. It is scientifically accepted that on average, women are physiologically less capable of certain physical tasks. With the whole movement for integration in the army, allowing females into combat positions, numerous high ranking officers have stated, and put into practice, that certain physical standards will not be lowered for anyone. Hence, less women are expected to pass the physical aspects then men. (If I'm wrong please tell me where my logic falls short.) Therefore, kudos to the woman for succeeding in what is often seen as a man's profession. I tip my hat to her.

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[StowieJ]

Ok, so help this layman understand something...

• She met every criteria the Army set for this "elite soldier" specialist rating/badge
• She met them without help, special consideration or reduced standards due to gender
• She met them voluntarily, above and beyond what was expected or needed for her MOS/role
• She met them with enough time left that she presumably finished ahead of others
• She met them when 8 out 10 others (men and women) who tried could not

But because she's an officer, the belief is she didn't meet them well enough to at the very least avoid public ridicule. I know nothing about this course/badge so I must believe the knowledgeable folks here that it is in fact unacceptable and worthy of derision.

So can one of the people on this board who have passed this particular course please post the alternate requirements that the Army has established for officers vs enlisted? Thanks in advance.

I tip my hat to you too, sir.

I have yet to comprehend on what level she falls short, until they add a clause about "must look professional when enduring personal hell."

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[scoutpilot]

It's expected of her that she can exceed the standards for a 12 mile ruck, that's part of the whole "being an officer" thing.

What? Next you'll tell me a 180 on my PT test isn't good enough!