This should make you very uncomfortable.

Are you responding to what the Article and Northcom Commander said or your own prejudices about the DoD? Let's go back and see what the article says:
PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. -- The Defense Department is grooming a new type of commander to coordinate the military response to domestic disasters, hoping to save lives by avoiding some of the chaos that plagued the Hurricane Katrina rescue effort.
The officers, called dual-status commanders, would be able to lead both active-duty and National Guard troops -- a power that requires special training and authority because of legal restrictions on the use of the armed forces on U.S. soil.
No one commander had that authority in the aftermath of Katrina, and military and civilian experts say the lack of coordination contributed to the nightmarish delays, duplications and gaps in the huge rescue effort....
...An unprecedented 70,000 military personnel poured into the region to help, but active-duty and Guard troops often didn't know what the other was doing, according to William Banks, a professor at the Syracuse University law school who studied the response....
....A dual-status commander would straddle that divide. With the approval of both state and federal officials, he or she would get temporary authority to command both types of troops and report up both chains of command.
The U.S. Northern Command, with headquarters at Peterson Air Force Base, Colo., began training dual-status commanders last year. Northern Command was created after the 2001 terrorist attacks to defend the U.S. homeland and help civilian authorities handle domestic crises such as Katrina.
The goal is to have at least one officer in each of the 50 states and in four U.S. territories qualified and ready to be a dual-status commander on a moment's notice, said Adm. James Winnefeld, commander of Northern Command.
"So if you have a sudden emergency, earthquake, hurricane, you name it, we want to be able to have a National Guard of able to command federal forces," Winnefeld said in interview earlier this year.

..."There's always been, I would say, a gentlemanly disagreement between the states and the federal government, at least for the last decade probably, on who would actually have the responsibility for commanding federal forces responding to a disaster in a state," he said.
Winnefeld believes in nearly every case the National Guard should be in charge.
"We believe that the right person 99 percent of the time to command the entire military response inside a state is a National Guard officer who is from that state,
is appointed by the governor and understands that state and has been trained by the federal side to understand the federal side of this kind of response better than almost any federal officer would," Winnefeld said

The reality is that the Dod is the largest standing possessor of logistics, engineering and manpower assets in the world so unless you are arguing that the country, history and the need be damned- disaster relief will only be performed by Homeland Security because it's their turf, there must be an established framework for providing and controlling forces to civil disaster relief efforts. I don't believe that I have ever heard anyone argue that an adhoc headquarters with an adhoc commander performs faster and with more efficiency than an established organization.

Adm Allen was the Federal coordinator after FEMA fell down on the job, but one hardly thinks that he would argue that the utilization of DoD assets was more efficient with no controlling headquarters leaving Federal and state military forces initially reporting to separate commands. Similarly- I've yet to read an argument from anyone there that Katrina would have been resolved faster and with less loss of life and property if only the AD military had not provided forces to the effort.

Your argument is totally at odds with the proposal- it seems about everything except what they have proposed. You've raised the spector of Posse Comitatus- which is not the issue here. You've argued that Active Duty assets should not be used in disaster response although historically and in virtually every major disaster they have been utilized. You've argued that the National Guard wasn't prepared, trained or empowered to swiftly take command of a military response effort which includes AD forces- which is of course the shortfall that the Northcom Commander is attempting to rectify by training NG officers to assume command of Active Duty forces supporting a disaster relief effort. Subsequently, you've argued that AD officers are not primarily concerned with dealing with the civilian infrastructure- which is exactly what the NorthCom commander is saying. I can't see that your argument would find many allies in Homeland Security, The USCG, or the various State TAGs. As far as it being a bid for more money? How do you figure that? This doesn't add forces, force structure or even billets- it trains existing NG Officers and predesignates them for contingency assignments. In the words of Shakespeare: this is "much ado about nothing".
 
If it's much to do about nothing, I would love to know the man-hour conversion DOD put into this. It's a bit of both, both a response to what the NORTHCOM commander stated, and my own feelings. Adm. Allen got very little support from SecDef during Katrina. It was a fact that left a nasty taste in his mouth for DOD. So, before DOD thinks it should be a bigger player, it may want to play better with the agencies that are here for a reason. Interesting you bring up FEMA and Katrina, I'm sure there are a few DOD managed wars the same argument could be made for. DOD did not share facilities or fuel during Katrina. Now, why do you think that is.

You HONESTLY think DOD is doing this out of the goodness of its heart? No, I don't think that's the reason. It's a shift, keep SOME of the $$'s when they draw back. "AWWWW KATRINA, DEEPWATER HORIZON, FIRES, FLOODS!!! We're here to help!" says DOD. Do you think that isn't followed up with "and here's how much we need."

We haven't had a TRUE naval battle is 50+ years. Well then, battleships firing on the coast, subs tracking Russian boats....even carrier operations....is that what we see in commercials? No. We see the USNS Comfort, we see responses to Tsunamis and floods with Navy personnel. I'm guessing we don't need the fleet the Navy wants to just deliver supplies to SE Asia. Nope, it's because Senators and Representatives watch TV, and fund the military, and if their electorate believe they are safer because of some catchy commercial, that's where the money will go.

If DOD has been somewhere and has been effective, and yet we haven't avoided disasters like Katrina, is that because Honore didn't have more power? I don't think so. There's only so much DOD can do, and frankly rolling into local jurisdications isn't something their well known for.

I'm comfortable with the authority resting with a state's AG in the National Guard, and when called on by the governor, or requested by the lead agency, great, but to assume the country needs more (including on the southern border), is assuming too much. We have a couple of wars to win. DOD is better suited to focus on that. Keep the National Guard working for the state, not augmenting the Border Patrol, and have active duty serve in a way they were meant to serve.

As for my argument getting much support within DHS, USCG, state offices etc....you would be surprised how annoyed responders are by DOD forces that come no where close to speaking "response talk". Well before Katrina and certainly after.

Do not take this personally, but your comments seem as ignorant of the Incident Command System as the DOD personnel that attempt to find their place in that established ICS.
 
If it's much to do about nothing, I would love to know the man-hour conversion DOD put into this. It's a bit of both, both a response to what the NORTHCOM commander stated, and my own feelings. Adm. Allen got very little support from SecDef during Katrina. It was a fact that left a nasty taste in his mouth for DOD. So, before DOD thinks it should be a bigger player, it may want to play better with the agencies that are here for a reason. Interesting you bring up FEMA and Katrina, I'm sure there are a few DOD managed wars the same argument could be made for. DOD did not share facilities or fuel during Katrina. Now, why do you think that is.

You HONESTLY think DOD is doing this out of the goodness of its heart? No, I don't think that's the reason. It's a shift, keep SOME of the $$'s when they draw back. "AWWWW KATRINA, DEEPWATER HORIZON, FIRES, FLOODS!!! We're here to help!" says DOD. Do you think that isn't followed up with "and here's how much we need."

We haven't had a TRUE naval battle is 50+ years. Well then, battleships firing on the coast, subs tracking Russian boats....even carrier operations....is that what we see in commercials? No. We see the USNS Comfort, we see responses to Tsunamis and floods with Navy personnel. I'm guessing we don't need the fleet the Navy wants to just deliver supplies to SE Asia. Nope, it's because Senators and Representatives watch TV, and fund the military, and if their electorate believe they are safer because of some catchy commercial, that's where the money will go.

If DOD has been somewhere and has been effective, and yet we haven't avoided disasters like Katrina, is that because Honore didn't have more power? I don't think so. There's only so much DOD can do, and frankly rolling into local jurisdications isn't something their well known for.

I'm comfortable with the authority resting with a state's AG in the National Guard, and when called on by the governor, or requested by the lead agency, great, but to assume the country needs more (including on the southern border), is assuming too much. We have a couple of wars to win. DOD is better suited to focus on that. Keep the National Guard working for the state, not augmenting the Border Patrol, and have active duty serve in a way they were meant to serve.

As for my argument getting much support within DHS, USCG, state offices etc....you would be surprised how annoyed responders are by DOD forces that come no where close to speaking "response talk". Well before Katrina and certainly after.

Do not take this personally, but your comments seem as ignorant of the Incident Command System as the DOD personnel that attempt to find their place in that established ICS.
Oh- whatever- undoubtedly all of that time detailed to FEMA during Hurricane Iniki qualified me for nothing- I certainly wouldn't want to imply that I see any need for anyone to consider the ramifications of command,control and coordination of military forces before they had to be employed. I have noticed that it's virtually always more effective to just wait until you need them and then figure out who will and how they are going to be legally commanded and then see if you can deconflict those missions on the fly. But I think I'll wrap this up and just leave it to others to read the article and then determine for themselves the relative merits of training and designating before hand, National Guard officers to command designated supporting military forces. Do not however be confused about the law or the history of support by DoD forces; The current law defines clear missions for domestic support to civil authority by active duty forces and delineates what they can and can not do; and it is foolish to argue otherwise. It is not a posse comitatus issue, and there is 200+ years of the military providing support in civil disasters, and the NORTHCOM Commander points out in this article that this is about effective control of supporting military forces. It is not a re-write of the incident response plan and it doesn't federalize the Governor's prerogatives . How training and designating National Guard Officers before they are put in the position to command AD troops in this scenario impinges on other federal agencies lead responder mission is rather opaque to me, but as you can see Federal bureaucracies do jealously guard their turf.
 
You spent a HURRICANE detailed to an agency and you now know all about it? Please enlighten me, which ICSs have you taken? DOD's general idea is they some how have an idea of how it's supposed to work. They don't. I've been detailed to responses and joint operations with DOD. Two very different things. Two very different languages. A JIC and a JIB are not the same. In concept, sure, but in practice two very different feels.

Active duty troops? Put them on a battle field or put them in their houses with their families. No need to take up more of their time replicating a system that exists...one they should not be a part of.
 
Well- I didn't spend the time watching Iniki on TV - which I believe is what a Coast Guard Academy member of the class of 2006 would have done with Katrina n'est ce pas - but that hasn't stopped you from invoking the ghost of Katrina. Rather I spent it helping FEMA develop an adhoc command and control arrangement to coordinate with the Hawaii TAG and the USArmy Pacific which was tasked to provide forces in support so I got to see pretty up close and personal many of the issues associated with the issues associated with active military support to these efforts.
I don't claim to have a tremendous amount of expertise in disaster management and I don't believe that only an expert- which I seriously doubt a junior Coast Guard officer with 5 total years of experience in the USCG including 18 months as a PR officer qualifies as either- can discuss the relative merits of training National Guard officers before hand to command, control and coordinate active and state military forces. What I do claim is that I have read the article and the NorthCom Commander's presentation and can discuss his proposal. Not personal gripes about the budget, not turf battles about a perceived thread to the lead responder status of one federal agency or another, but the actula program as it is in place and explained by the Northcom Commander in this article. It appears to me to be a common sense response to lessons learned in the utilization of military forces in response to civilian disasters. I don't have a particular "side" to take here- It is clear that the law designates agencies other than the DoD as the first and lead Federal responders to civil disaster. It is also clear that they do have a role- and have done so hundreds of times in our history- whether you like that or not.
You have yet to explain why anyone should be worried about this program. Rather than argue that black is white ie.. explaining why the big bad DoD has no role in civil disaster response, perhaps you could comment on reality- which is that active duty forces do and are expected to be called out in support of civil emergencies. The issue is HOW are they efficiently utilized? It's always possible that you are right that it is somehow threatening to civil liberties, as well as to the efficient use of resources by having NG officers trained and predesignated with dual command authority- but I can't see how that is the case.
Hysterics is generally not conducive to reasoned discussion so I am not going to spend more effort on this one. You can of course believe what you wish- perhaps you are right and this is some nefarious plot to take over a mission which is spelled out by law as a supporting mission for the DoD. For the rest of you though- why don't you read the article that sparked this thread and see if that is what you draw from it:
http://www.military.com/news/articl...katrina-like-chaos.html?ESRC=sm_todayinmil.nl
 
Forgive me for asking this AGAIN Bruno but exactly what ICS training have you completed? Or are you saying that because you were at a unit during a disaster, you "know" something? Hint: ICS 100, 200, 300, etc etc etc.... have you had any ICS training?

Not sure where you're getting your numbers. My first public affairs course at the Defense Information School was in 2006. I've been a public affairs officer for about 80 months, not 18. Heck, I was stationed at the office of public affairs for more than 46 months. And yes, I've not only taken ICS training, but I've completed joint course and....I've had my time at responses.

Your blind love of active duty DOD in domestic responses is interesting. Let me try to quickly explain. DOD officials do not speak "civilian response-ese". Frequently (and yes, this has been my experience, and the experience of mustangs I've worked with), that DOD frequently thinks it "has the answers". It's like an awkward child, rolling into a response, bumping into the other agencies, and loudly stating what it should do. Those opinions of the awkward DOD child doesn't come from experience, it comes from an inherent attitude "I know best". Well, when it comes to domestic response....DOD doesn't know best. Not even close.
 
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