Top 13%

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by Vista123, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    My son's school does not do class rank. PERIOD!

    But it has an option to place class percentile on the transcript or not.

    I know that if you do not report your percentile that USNA will extrapolate it from the student's ACT scores.

    My son is in the top 13th percentile. With a Math ACT score of 33 and English ACT of 34.

    I do not know the mathematical formula.

    Therefore would it be better to place the top 13th percentile or would it be better to leave that blank and let them extrapolate it from the Act scores?
     
  2. Oxford22

    Oxford22 Member

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  3. bbourq5

    bbourq5 Member

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    Do you need to have ACT scores for NASS?

    I have only taken the PSAT's so far, and I am going to take the ACT's at the next available date. Will I be able to apply to NASS without them or are ACT scores necessary?
     
  4. navy2016

    navy2016 Member

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    I believe you can apply with PSAT scores but you will need SAT/ACT scores in your official candidate file
     
  5. ctuma2

    ctuma2 Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean that the academy will extrapolate a rank from ACT scores. That is not the purpose of a class rank. The purpose of a class rank is so that they can look at your grades and if you have a lot of Bs but you are in the top 10%, it means that you are in a school that grades more difficultly than a school where several As get you in the top 10%. ACTs are based on a national average.

    If you need to put a class rank on the NASS application, I gave an estimate (my school does not rank either). If a problem occurs or just for precautionary measures, you can always have a counselor write to the Academy explaining that the school does not rank.
     
  6. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    They want relative positioning among both one's local and national peers. I'd put it down, as it's competitive relative to past class profiles. Says he'd among the top 13 of 100 classmates, 26 of 200, 39 of 300, etc. That is competitive and as noted, he looks even better among his national peers in both math and verbal areas.

    It's interesting that secular institutions have bought into the notion that ranking is not important and/or desirable. Many require or offer no class ranking or requirement for standardized testing. See Vista's school. That is an abandonment of responsibility among those charged with running the school, as they can't take the heat from parents.

    The Academies all assume just the opposite and will forever be imposing measures of relative positioning upon applicants, candidates, Mids, and officer leaders. If the PC progressives might have their way, everyone would be deemed #1 and given a trophy. Not (yet) @ USNA.
     
  7. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Not sure what to tell you, but unless they just use the ACT percentile as a substitute, I don't know how they could possibly extrapolate the class rank. Assuming you know the size of his class though it seems to me you could extrapolate it yourself from his percentile ranking.

    As I recall it says something in the directions about how to deal with this, unless I'm confusing it with NROTC.
     
  8. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Admission office

    I was told specificaly by a person in the admission office that they have a formula they use if your school does not provide class rank/percentile and this formula is based on ACT scores.This person also stated that most mids are from the top 10% of their class. Thus my question, if he is top 13% (not top 10%) is it better to not place it on there.

    I understand that this may seem like splitting hairs. However, this entire process seems to be 'in the details' particularly if one is not a recruited athlete or a URM.

    Regarding my son's highschoo, it has ~3,000 students. The board of education has determined the number of students causes an unfair disadvantage within the application process with regards to class rank/ percentiles.
     
  9. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    NASS

    I didnt ask the formula from the admission person. I am interested in knowing what that formula would be. If your school does not rank or give percentiles-some do not-how do they fill in that blank?

    As far as the NASS application, according to my son it asked you to guess your class rank (not percentile) so he figured out what it would be based on his percentile and wrote that down. I didnt check his application -so I dont know what he put. There wasnt an option to leave that blank.
     
  10. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    For REGULAR APPLICANTS,

    Actually, the first thing USNA often will do is call the high school and see if they can get some type of ranking information. I'd not heard that USNA extrapolates from standardized test scores, but that may in fact be the case.

    My personal opinion is that YOU should not estimate your class rank based on standardized test scores. If your school doesn't rank, you and/or the school should so inform USNA. USNA can decide how to deal with the issue. USNA is perfectly capable of doing the math from standardized test scores, if that's how they want to proceed.

    My concern is that, if you put down a number and it is not actually your class rank in your h.s. class, you arguably aren't being truthful. (Maybe in your class, everyone other than you maxed the SAT/ACT -- so you may be dead last in class rank but in the top 10% nationally. Two entirely different things.) If you put down a rank based on standardized tests and USNA checks with the school and the school says they don't rank, USNA may well wonder what's going on.

    Many schools don't rank. This is not a new issue for USNA and you won't be the first person in this situation. Inform USNA and let them deal with the situation.

    For NASS ONLY,

    If you are asked to estimate and have no choice to leave it blank, then you have to estimate. Most people have some idea where they stand in a class based on grades, awards, etc. Because NASS is a recruiting tool, the best/smartest applicants don't always get accepted. And USNA will know your grades and the courses you took. Thus, in the vast scheme of things, class rank is not likely to be a deal-maker or deal-breaker when it comes to an NASS acceptance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  11. marciemi

    marciemi USMA Alumnus

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    I realize this is USNA and not West Point, but I will say that at all of our Liaison training, we have been told the same as the OP for that academy at least, so it does seem like a possibility. If the school does not rank, West Point will use their ACT/SAT scores as an approximate "rank" so in the OP's case, yes, a rank of around 2/100 (saying 98/99th percentile) is definitely better than 13/100 (based on his real class rank percentile guess). Obviously it seems better to leave it blank in this case and put down truthfully "school does not rank". Sometimes they will push the school (in USMA's case at least) and ask for even an approximate rank/percentile, in which case that 13% would be given anyway. But if not, the ACT filling in would seem to work to his advantage.
     
  12. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    I see both sides

    on one hand mathematically such a large class puts you at a distinct disadvantage with regards to class rank/percentile particularly if your school is a rigorous-over achieving high school.

    On the other hand, I told my son-get better grades and get himself in the 10th percentile. and that-is-that.
     
  13. pezska

    pezska Member

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    my dd's school doesn't rank as well but the district provides a school profile that has GPAs segmented in class %s. that is how she ranked herself among her classmates.

     
  14. Proudpatriot

    Proudpatriot Proudpatriot

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    If your school does not rank then it does not rank. Many schools do not rank their students. My son was accepted to NASS and USNA from a school that does not rank. We did not try to estimate his class rank.
     
  15. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    I'd beg to differ.

    The whole concept of class rank is that unless one is in a class of fewer than 30 which might be deemed an insignificant sample size, that whether one graduates from a highly competitive HS of 3,000 and 700 students/class ... or a country-bumpkin school with 100 students/class ... it gives the SAs insight to what they want to assess, i.e. how competitive is this candidate in his/her home pool. Size is essentially a non-factor, with the arguable caveat that the larger the school, the more valid the ranking. Contrary to what this post might imply, the larger the class size, the more clear and credible is the class rank. :thumb:

    Again, this ranking is reflective of a profound value that every Midshipman and USN/USMC officer grasp, like it or otherwise. One's military career is a continual journey of competition to be the best. And they seem to always put a number to it. Anyone doubting this one needs a subscription to USNI "Proceedings" in which they regularly rank the "top 10" admirals and more. The days of everyone getting a trophy just for signing up are no mo.:frown:

    And USNA wants to know, what your CO thinks of your performance on his/her "ship." And the USNA wants to know what Iowa City and Princeton think of you relative to all your college-bound peers, i.e. the level playing field. Thus you might have sailed under Captain Queeg, but in the end, everyone takes the same final exam.
     
  16. kpmom2013

    kpmom2013 Member

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    My DD is applying for NASS. Her school does rank, but does not weight GPA. She has taken all honors and IB classes and has a 3.75 GPA, but she is ranked vs. all the "basketweaving" students so is only in top 20% of her class. Does anyone know if USNA weights class rank in a similar way to how they calculate a weighted GPA? If not, I fear DD may not fare well.
     
  17. MMMom

    MMMom Member

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    kpmom, I don't really know the answer to your question, but I do know the NASS app asked if classes were Honors/IB/AP so I would think they would see that and it would carry some weight... good luck to her! My DS submitted his NASS app yesterday, and now we WAIT.:smile:
     
  18. 2012mom?

    2012mom? Member

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    To kpmom2013: In addition to the information your DD supplies, USNA will ask DD's HS for information about its demographics and curriculum. This helps USNA to compare someone who is in the top 2% of HS that has a less competitive academic profile to someone who is in the top 20% of a HS with a highly competitve profile.
     

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