Transferring from USNA to Civilian College

[bk2015]

Thank you everyone for your thorough and insightful responses - I really appreciate it. I just want to clarify that the possibility of me transferring is a plan B. I currently am intending on going on summer cruise and doing summer trainings to get a better grasp of what life out on the fleet is like. This place definitely has its ups and downs but I think I'm taking a levelheaded approach to it. My main issue is that my idea of an ideal college education is centered around challenging academics in a subject that I am passionate about. I like CS but there isn't much in my arena of interest (computational biology) to pursue applications of CS.

Just like SAs, civilian colleges have pros and cons in general and each has pros and cons in particular.
My only advice is to do everything you can to ensure the grass will be greener wherever you're going - before you leave. My dad had a great saying: "Wherever you are is the worst; wherever you're going is the best; and wherever you came from isn't as bad as you thought it was when you were there."
I've found in life that it has proved true more often than not.

That's my biggest worry; I'm worried that if I leave here, I'll see my friends and classmates commissioning 3 years from now and regret my decision to leave for the rest of my life. On the flip side, I'm worried that if I don't leave and I realized my 1/C year that I actually do not want to be a naval officer and end up being a terrible officer who hates their job. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

What makes you think Duke, Stanford or UPenn will be more academically challenging than USNA?
Are the professors at USNA not "experts" in their fields?
Are you just not getting enough challenge from the classes, minimal opportunity to take high level courses and do research.
Are there many other students that are like you and not academically challenged?

I have friends at those schools and they are challenged much more than I am. The Machine Learning major in the CS department at CMU with a Neural Computational minor is my top choice if I were to transfer because it combines computing with a high level of math, statistics and I can apply it to neuroscience. Classes are easy and there definitely is little opportunity to do research. I've sought out some research opportunities and I have been able to get involved in one small one so far, though! The professors here are amazing and I think they are definitely experts.

You are an exception if you don't find USNA academically challenging. As I stated in the prior thread, there are certainly lots of other ways to occupy your time if you are bored with the academics or don't need to study.....tutor others who need help, join a sport or ECA....etc.

I played a club A sport last semester, which was almost as much commitment as a varsity sport. I currently am involved in an ECA sport, volunteer for MAG around twice a month, and am involved in 2 other ECAs that are computing/cyber related. I also regularly tutor my classmates in my company 3-4 times a week. I promise I don't just sit around in my room doing nothing!

Go back and read the essay(s) you submitted with your USNA application. Think about what has changed, and why, now that you are no longer in that addictively competitive hunt for a Service Academy appointment and you are actually there.

If you do decide to stay, you are perfectly positioned for the UK Scholars group, if you keep on a top-of-class trajectory. There are probably some upper class in your company who are chasing the Rhodes, Fulbright and other prestigious opportunities for IGEP. There is also VGEP, where you could start at Johns Hopkins or other nearby schools January of your 1/c year. The hunt for a Rhodes begins early, and it's not all about grades. Double-majoring could be something to explore. If you have time to spare, getting involved with the Midshipman Action Group and giving to others is never a waste of time.

It's up to you to find what challenges you!

Thank you for the advice I will go back and read my essays and see if that influences my thoughts at all.
If I stay, I am almost definitely pursuing a double major, and hope to gun for the prestigious grad school programs. My advisor told me that Mids who do grad programs are usually behind their classmates and have to play catch-up a little bit because they didn't get enough depth in their majors due to military courses. He said that they end up doing fine though and being behind a little doesn't affect them much. My issue is not that there aren't enough opportunities here; it's that I have a desire to learn something that I am passionate about (computational biology / CS, along with high level math and other STEM courses) and I am genuinely not getting it here.

 

[bk2015]

When you say that you are a high validator, how did you go about doing that? Did you validate any classes that you didn't take an AP exam in? For instance; I took AP Calc 1 and 2 in HS and got 100% in both class but I didn't take the AP exam b/c I knew you couldn't transfer credits to USNA, so would I still be able to validate those courses without taking the AP exam?
thanks

Aside from 4 semesters of a foreign language (which I did take the "AP" version of in high school, but this is a more obscure language that isn't accredited by College Board, so I didn't get AP credit) and chemistry, all of the classes I validated were due to APs. I took AP Chemistry in HS and got a 5 but I validated because of a test, not because of the AP score. You can validate Calc 1 and 2 with AP scores, but I think you can also validate them through tests. They will send you validation tests to take before Plebe Summer on Blackboard. Don't blow those off - a lot of my classmates did and got placed in lower math.

 

[DH2015]

is placing in lower classes necessarily a bad thing? If youre not a genius, it seems like taking lower level classes would be better due to how tough plebe year is. Thoughts?

 

[NavyHoops]

Every year there is debate about validating or not. Honestly, don't try and game the system. USNA has been doing this a long time, trust the system. If you feel after the first week you are way over your head, talk to the prof about options.

 

[Blessedmom]

I always tell people who finds there current situation boring or not challenging to learn a new language, learn Chinese or Arabic? Those two languages are career advancers & very stimulating & challenging

 

[forumjunkie]

Purely curiosity and education for me, For some reason I had always thought of MIT as the top dog for engineering and scientific minds, but I really don't know that much about colleges.

Anyone care to share their thoughts or enlighten me?

 

[bk2015]

is placing in lower classes necessarily a bad thing? If youre not a genius, it seems like taking lower level classes would be better due to how tough plebe year is. Thoughts?

No, there's no stigma against not validating any classes! It might be beneficial for your QPR (or GPA) to take lower level classes, but some people end up slacking more in easier classes because they expect it to be easy and end up with lower grades.

 

[bk2015]

I always tell people who finds there current situation boring or not challenging to learn a new language, learn Chinese or Arabic? Those two languages are career advancers & very stimulating & challenging

I'm currently taking a foreign language. It's not Chinese or Arabic, but it's also not a common language!

 

[bk2015]

Purely curiosity and education for me, For some reason I had always thought of MIT as the top dog for engineering and scientific minds, but I really don't know that much about colleges.

Anyone care to share their thoughts or enlighten me?

MIT definitely is one of the top. I am considering applying to MIT, but I also am considering other factors that impact college life, like proximity to home, quality of life, campus vibe, and climate.

 

[murfthesurf]

This is an hilarious thread.

Sorry OP, but life just isn't all figured out for you ahead of time, .....Fact is, your first equation blew up, that's pretty clear...now, You stop in here and start asking others to help you do your brand new 'equation of life' calculations?

IMHO, its time for you to step up and take sole control of this decision process....you already said you are pretty smart, ..so walk the talk...just sayin'

"Find out what it is in life you don't like to do ....and then don't do that thing"...

Personally, I think you should quickly get out before you are in a position that your 'elongated hesitation and indecision analysis' gets a subordinate you could be 'leading' , maimed or killed .

 

[Spud]

I agree with Hoops. You need to pack it up from the Academy, get to a civilian school and start being happy. You don't want to be a Naval Officer, you have said nothing about leading sailors or Marines, and you find the USNA academics boring. What is keeping you there? I have a grandson who is going to hit the fleet about the same time as you do. I pray he will have a Boat School Division Officer with more interest in his welfare, training, and performance than the smartest kid in the class who thinks USNA has been a total drag on his life. Good luck and God Bless.

 

[Blessedmom]

FYI: my friends son was recruited as the country manager of Hong Kong Bank in Singapore with expat privileges like huge apartment, American club, free international school for his 3 kids, driver etc. After his service he got his Wharton MBA, out of 15+ qualified applicants for top bank country manager position he got the position, Why?....only answer: he is a USNA grad

 

[NavyHoops]

The other part to think about is grad school. As indicated if your grades keep on this level you would be on the track that USNA has to groom Mids for post grad scholarships. You have said that CS isn't exactly what you are looking for. Would that lead to a post grad you want? Also remember anything that the Navy pays for post grad wise incurs additional commitment. I think you have a solid plan with regards to applying and seeing how the summer goes, but regardless, the bottom line is do you or do you not want to lead Sailors as an officer? Only you know that answer.

 

[Cerberi]

FYI: my friends son was recruited as the country manager of Hong Kong Bank in Singapore with expat privileges like huge apartment, American club, free international school for his 3 kids, driver etc. After his service he got his Wharton MBA, out of 15+ qualified applicants for top bank country manager position he got the position, Why?....only answer: he is a USNA grad

I am sure his MBA from Wharton was a complete non-factor

 

[5Day]

@bk2015 This thread is not hilarious. You are working on making a well informed logical decision that could affect the rest of your life. Take your time, gather as much information as possible, weigh the pros and cons and go forward. There is no rush and it looks like you are going along that path. The path we take is rarely a straight line, it if filled with curves and forks.
You already know,

I'm worried that if I don't leave and I realized my 1/C year that I actually do not want to be a naval officer and end up being a terrible officer who hates their job. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

If you are already thinking about this you will not put yourself in the position of

Personally, I think you should quickly get out before you are in a position that your 'elongated hesitation and indecision analysis' gets a subordinate you could be 'leading' , maimed or killed .

Some other points that you should consider. The USNA is focused on undergraduates. You even say the professors / faculty is great. Large top schools like the ones you are considering do not necessary have that same focus. They focus on their research and there PhD students. You may be interacting with TAs and not the professor. Those experts may not know how to teach. They are forced to teach undergraduate courses, because the university requires them to, but their real passion in in doing their research. Just do your research when sorting through your options.

No matter what you do later on in life, to be successful you will always have to interact with people, lead teams and motivate those around you. Even if you are the smartest person on the planet, if you cannot do those things you will never be able to live up to your full potential. I cannot think of a better undergraduate program that trains leaders than where you are at. So maybe your issues with the academic program at USNA are far outweighed by everything else USNA has to offer.

I am sure you know this:
"To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government."
If you mission aligns with that of the academy, you are in the right place. If not, than maybe you would be better off at one of those other top notch universities.

Keep posting, keep asking questions, let us know how it all works out.

 

[usna1985]

The OP would not be the first person to be confused/disillusioned/unmotivated after plebe year. Plebe year at USNA is not the "real" Navy/USMC. It's smart for him/her to experience the summer, which for most 3/C is somewhat more representative of life in the fleet. If, after the summer, you're still not interested in what the military will offer, then you are best doing something else with your life.

Also, I suspect you'll find subsequent years more challenging academically than plebe year, especially if you're a Group 1 major.

 

[Full Steam]

This thread has been weighing on me over the last couple of days. I have a few thoughts, in no particular order.

Plebe year is not designed to present the hardest possible academic challenge. It is designed to offer a stiff academic load that lays a foundation for further work in ones major, while also leaving enough margin for Naval Science/Leadership courses and professional obligations (plebe training).

Academically, I am confident that you will find greater challenges as you get into majors courses. Not sure which physics course you are in, but even physics for engineers is offering a foundational course that will be built on later in Mechanics, Fluid Dynamics, Electrical Engineering, Stats & Dyns, etc. Your friends at civilian colleges may be drinking more deeply from the computational well as freshmen, but they generally are not also responsible for plebe rates, a sport, or Naval Science courses.

What was it you were hoping for academically when you applied to USNA? (I ask this sincerely, not in a snarky way.) USNA has limited majors and course offerings that reflect the smaller size of the student body, the fact that it is a college not a university and the professional mission of the institution. Were you looking at the Computer Science degrees and assuming that there would be something related to computational biology? Did you have other reasons for applying?

To what extent can you craft an educational experience through electives, double major, summer internships, VGEP, etc that will bring you closer to what you are looking for? Have you looked at Oceanography, which isn't directly biology, but may contain more number crunching and representational modeling that would combine with CS. The oceanographers I know spend a lot of their time with modeling and predictive analysis, although they tend to be describing and predicting systems that deal less directly with living creatures. One of my oceanographer classmates now works for NOAA, another acquaintance has spent time digging into the possible and probably implications that climate change might have on naval missions.

There are far more biology offerings than when I was a mid (I think organic chemistry was as close as you could get, back when I was there with Noah). The biology courses seem to be part of the Chemistry department. SC311, for example, might be of interest and seems to have minimal prerequisites, such that it would be an elective you could do without extensive work in other chemistry courses.

As Capt MJ mentioned, you may be in a position to do some significant extra academic programming. VGEP, Trident Scholar, advanced graduate scholarships, or perhaps a semester at a foreign military academy. There are also incredible opportunities after graduation and a few years as a divo. One of our friends did a double Master's Degree at MIT.

I think you need to have some serious conversations with your academic advisor and other trusted mentors. (I didn't have a great advisor, but sat down each semester with my plebe English teacher to discuss my academic plans. You may want to get a meeting with your fall physics instructor or someone from the CS department. I would also encourage you to reach out to some of the officers in the yard who might provide some insights.)

 

[HassamaMama]

I don't know if I have any right to speak on the matter, but I will give me opinion.
First off, I am a high school student. So you can say that I have no experience regarding life at the USNA or the education there. But here is what I do know:
If you were appointed to the USNA and you chose to accept that Appointment, then you did not do so "just because." This life you have chosen for yourself is one that requires a LOT of time thinking about it before choosing to pursue it. For those who are accusing the OP of not being an officer in the Navy, please calm down! He said that he is unsure if the USNA is the right place for his education. In my process of applying to the USNA I have met quite a few people interested in attending SAs and/or serving our country. But many of these people don't exactly have a legitimate reason or drive to go and pursue service. They kind of just want to go, and shrug their shoulders as they say this. That lack of conviction and belief in choosing this lifestyle is what separates who actually pursues it or not.
OP - If you truly want to serve our country in the Navy, and you truly do love it, then please stay. Sure, the education may seem dull to you, but that may be because you do have an interest in a very specific topic that not many people even know about, including myself! Remember why you came to the USNA - to serve in the Navy as an Officer. Yes, you get an education as well, but if your primary purpose was not to serve but to pursue an education and serve "on the side" then I am not sure why you chose a SA over a civilian college.
I am not going to tell you to leave, or say you are ridiculous for asking this sort of questions, as a few others have been doing. You said you want to be an officer, and love it...so stay. As others have suggested, try to join a Post-Graduate program to gain a further education. If you really want to serve, then you won't mind the few extra years.
Also, don't make a decision like this so soon...it is only your Plebe year! You can't judge so quickly, especially when this is a decision that will change your life, and maybe not for the better.
Once again, I may not have a clue as to what I am talking about. Nevertheless, I wish you all the best. Good luck.

 

[Full Steam]

A few more thoughts . . .

You are not unique in wondering what you've gotten yourself into or if this is a path you want to continue. I know that many midshipmen have similar thoughts, whether they share them publicly or not. The act of asking questions about your situation is not in and of itself unworthy. Nor (in my opinion) do the questions make you somehow less worthy of being a naval officer or somehow less likely to be a successful officer and quality leader.

Think about what you hoped to do in the Navy when you submitted your application. Did you expect that you would be spending your years after graduation applying computational biology skills? Did you have career goals or had you not really thought that far ahead? Talk to as many officers as you can about what they do as officers. Responsibilities differ wildly among the different designators. Have these conversations with your club O-reps, instructors and the officers you meet on third-class cruise.

In most cases, you won't directly use your undergraduate degree as a division officer. Engineering duty officers and submariners probably use their academic training the most. The Navy expects to get as much leadership and watchstanding and division maintenance supervision out of an English major as out of a math major.

Not every moment of every day in the Navy is going to thrill you. There will be paperwork, problems with sailors that challenge you, long watches, duty on Christmas and Thanksgiving and New Years, equipment that is broken with no spare parts in sight, and department heads that you don't find particularly inspiring. There will also be rev watches that start with a comet that fills the sky from horizon to horizon followed by the most glorious sunrise you've ever seen, promotion and re-enlistment ceremonies where you administer an oath to a sailor while his or her family watches proudly, engineering casualties where your ability to do your job is the difference between safety and disaster, rescuing a boat full of refugees who had missed landfall and were headed out to open ocean, and being the hand/mind behind administering deadly force.


No one promised you that every day in the Navy would be great. I think most Navy vets I know would say that on the whole, the good outweighed the bad. Most would say that they are a different person because of their time in the Navy and that they are better than they would have been without that experience. That said, no Naval officer is master of his or her own fate. There is luck of the draw and needs of the service.


I think it's important to remember that even if you were to find another college with a perfect fit major, there is no assurance that you will be completely content or happy with where you find yourself after earning that degree. If there weren't a lot of people in jobs that weren't perfectly fulfilling, there would be a much smaller market for Dilbert calendars. There is luck of the draw and needs of the company and mergers and failure to secure capital and government shutdown leading to lapsed grants or no contract.


As you weigh your options, a couple practicalities to consider.
Many universities accept far fewer transfer students than incoming freshmen. You may find that acceptance rates for incoming sophomores or juniors are lower.
Many universities have less financial aid for transfer students than for freshmen.
There may be limits on transfer credits, both as an absolute cap on credits or as limitations on how transfer credit may be applied. You might find that if you leave USNA at the end of 3/c year, you would not be able to finish at the new university in just two more years. You may also find that some degree requirements have to be specifically sequenced, which again might result in taking longer to complete your new degree.

A common deadline for transfers for fall semester is the preceding March 1. Some schools are more likely to accept transfers in fall than for spring semester. Should you decide to wait until after 3/c summer to decide if you stay or go, you may find that the prudent course would be to apply to other schools as a transfer student for after 3/c year (before you incur a service obligation). That would give you time to experience some "real Navy" while on cruise, see what youngster year academics hold for you and not be making a rush decision. IMHO, the option of leaving up to the beginning of 2/c year is there for a reason. You aren't somehow cheating the system if you have questions and take time to seek our counsel on what good answers might be.

 

[Capt MJ]

Yes! Yes! Yes! To above.