Trouble with alcohol
- Thread starter USMAMom
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I would think they need to report it. When my DS interviewed with his ALO, part of that meeting was to discuss drug & alcohol issues and I believe he also signed a form making a commitment not to use, etc.
Whether it was documented by the police or not, it is part of the 'honesty & integrity' issue.
Whether it was documented by the police or not, it is part of the 'honesty & integrity' issue.
Pima
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I don't know if school means HS or college, but either way I would assume it is on their record somehow. Report it ASAP. The worst thing you can do is avoid it and have them come to you because they found out via the school official records.
AF in this current environment has little to no tolerance for DUIs or underage drinking (take a look on ROTC dis-enrollment threads).
Get in front of the 8 ball now and contact the ALO.
AF in this current environment has little to no tolerance for DUIs or underage drinking (take a look on ROTC dis-enrollment threads).
Get in front of the 8 ball now and contact the ALO.
Agree with above postings. If the student is in high school and this trouble with the school led to a suspension (as it does in many districts) your student does need to deal with this honestly and quickly -- as it (probably) changes his answer to the question "Have you ever been suspended." Talk to principal and be sure what action school feels it must take -- maybe school is still assessing situation and there is some leeway in how school handles the situation (some high schools may, depending on circumstances, allow one "mistake" if it involves a minor in possession, etc.) -- only you can figure out what your school's/district's policy is. Get that information and then contact ALO as soon as possible if there is going to be or already has been a suspension, disciplinary record of the event, etc. If there is no disciplinary action, suspension, etc. what may need to be reported may be different than if there is a more serious disciplinary action involved.
Christcorp
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I'm not disagreeing with the others, but you mention "Trouble with alcohol" but NOT with police. Sorry if that sounds confusing, but what kind of trouble then is there???
You say with the school. Well, the school has no jurisdiction when it comes to the law. They can suspend/expel you from school, but they can't "CHARGE" you with anything.
If I was you, I'd have your son/daughter (Not you) contact their ALO/MALO/BGO and tell them the entire story. Don't bring it up here. Their admissions officer will know how to handle it, or they will bring it up to those who do know how to handle it. We deal with all sorts of stuff through the entire application process. Sometimes applicants or their parent, while well meaning, will mention things to admissions, DODMRB, etc... that have no business being brought up; then it causes headaches. Not saying this does or doesn't fall into that category. Simply that ALO/MALO/BGO deal with pretty much every possible scenario. Have your son/daughter contact him/her and explain it first. Don't call admissions first. Don't email the academy first. Contact your ALO/MALO/BGO first.
You say with the school. Well, the school has no jurisdiction when it comes to the law. They can suspend/expel you from school, but they can't "CHARGE" you with anything.
If I was you, I'd have your son/daughter (Not you) contact their ALO/MALO/BGO and tell them the entire story. Don't bring it up here. Their admissions officer will know how to handle it, or they will bring it up to those who do know how to handle it. We deal with all sorts of stuff through the entire application process. Sometimes applicants or their parent, while well meaning, will mention things to admissions, DODMRB, etc... that have no business being brought up; then it causes headaches. Not saying this does or doesn't fall into that category. Simply that ALO/MALO/BGO deal with pretty much every possible scenario. Have your son/daughter contact him/her and explain it first. Don't call admissions first. Don't email the academy first. Contact your ALO/MALO/BGO first.
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I will agree with my brother-in-arms (and Weed) CC... 
KEEP IT OUT OF THE SA FORUMS...just so nobody can figure out anything. Seriously, that's not a slam but this isn't the place.
DO CALL THE ALO!!!
We ALO's are a finicky lot (just ask CC) BUT...we are also pretty "in touch" with the USAFA/RR folks and their "quirks" and such. We can speak with all the correct people, and get the "answers" from the people that make the decisions.
IMHO..an "alcohol incident" NOT involved the police, not causing a suspension/expulsion from school, while something I as an ALO want to know about...isn't going to be a terribly big deal. BUT if I had any questions, I would want to speak with USAFA/RRS to make certain. And I don't have to give them a name to ask the questions.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
KEEP IT OUT OF THE SA FORUMS...just so nobody can figure out anything. Seriously, that's not a slam but this isn't the place.
DO CALL THE ALO!!!
We ALO's are a finicky lot (just ask CC) BUT...we are also pretty "in touch" with the USAFA/RR folks and their "quirks" and such. We can speak with all the correct people, and get the "answers" from the people that make the decisions.
IMHO..an "alcohol incident" NOT involved the police, not causing a suspension/expulsion from school, while something I as an ALO want to know about...isn't going to be a terribly big deal. BUT if I had any questions, I would want to speak with USAFA/RRS to make certain. And I don't have to give them a name to ask the questions.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Christcorp
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Not to compare degree of seriousness, but to mention how "Confusing" it can be, we had a candidate and his parents who read the paperwork the way they THOUGHT it meant instead of what it actually meant. When it came to the questions concerning drug and alcohol use/abuse, the question pretty much mentions the "ILLEGAL" use of. So, the parents convinced their son/applicant, to admit to "Illegally" using alcohol. They "ASSUMED - INCORRECTLY", that if you are UNDER 21 years old, and have drank alcohol, then it was ILLEGAL. Unfortunately, answering the document the way they did, opened up a big can of worms that should never have been opened.
The first thing the parents didn't realize, is that there are NO FEDERAL LAWS stating the drinking age of 21 years old in the 50 states. Each state has their OWN LAW. Just so happens the federal government basically blackmails the states into making it 21 years old, or the feds won't provide highway funds. "But that's another topic". The parents and applicant also didn't realize that is MANY states, if the "Minor" is at home and their parents approve of the minor having alcohol, for WHATEVER REASON, such as with dinner or whatever reason; then that is TOTALLY LEGAL! Some states even allow a minor to drink in an establishment that SELLS ALCOHOL if the parent is with them and authorizes it. E.g. The family goes out to Outback Steakhouse and Mom and Dad let 16 year old Kenny have a beer with dinner.
The key is the word ILLEGAL USE. Again; this is just an EXAMPLE. This has nothing to do with the individual who is the topic of this thread. Do not compare my example with the original post. I am simply stating an example whereby the individual needs to speak with their ALO/BGO/MALO FIRST, prior to sending information to the academy. The academy sees thousands of applications and forms, letters, etc... They can't discern the true meaning behind everything. They have to go by what is written. Just like the parent who tries to write down that their son/daughter had some medical situation when they were 5 years old. Sometimes, you shouldn't be putting that in an application. Sometimes you should. This is why you should check with your ALO/BGO/MALO first. Maybe you are misreading something. In other words; it is NOT ALWAYS BEST to simply include such information. It's too easy for the academy to misunderstand the truth and read something into that isn't there. Then, you're trying to get waivers for things that you never should have even brought up. On the other hand, there are times when an applicant doesn't include information that they SHOULD include. Check with your ALO/BGO/MALO first; prior to mailing, faxing, emailing, or calling the academy.
The first thing the parents didn't realize, is that there are NO FEDERAL LAWS stating the drinking age of 21 years old in the 50 states. Each state has their OWN LAW. Just so happens the federal government basically blackmails the states into making it 21 years old, or the feds won't provide highway funds. "But that's another topic". The parents and applicant also didn't realize that is MANY states, if the "Minor" is at home and their parents approve of the minor having alcohol, for WHATEVER REASON, such as with dinner or whatever reason; then that is TOTALLY LEGAL! Some states even allow a minor to drink in an establishment that SELLS ALCOHOL if the parent is with them and authorizes it. E.g. The family goes out to Outback Steakhouse and Mom and Dad let 16 year old Kenny have a beer with dinner.
The key is the word ILLEGAL USE. Again; this is just an EXAMPLE. This has nothing to do with the individual who is the topic of this thread. Do not compare my example with the original post. I am simply stating an example whereby the individual needs to speak with their ALO/BGO/MALO FIRST, prior to sending information to the academy. The academy sees thousands of applications and forms, letters, etc... They can't discern the true meaning behind everything. They have to go by what is written. Just like the parent who tries to write down that their son/daughter had some medical situation when they were 5 years old. Sometimes, you shouldn't be putting that in an application. Sometimes you should. This is why you should check with your ALO/BGO/MALO first. Maybe you are misreading something. In other words; it is NOT ALWAYS BEST to simply include such information. It's too easy for the academy to misunderstand the truth and read something into that isn't there. Then, you're trying to get waivers for things that you never should have even brought up. On the other hand, there are times when an applicant doesn't include information that they SHOULD include. Check with your ALO/BGO/MALO first; prior to mailing, faxing, emailing, or calling the academy.
E8075
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Disclose or do not disclose...
I recommend that you disclose the "alcohol incident" immediately to the ALO. Second, retain a defense attorney that has specific experience with the Independent School District. I am from Texas, alcohol incidents will cause expulsion from the school district. Thereafter, the student and sometimes juveniles will be referred to the Juvenile Justice Alternative Education Program, aka "juvie school". At a minimum the school or the district will enter a negative event into the student's permanent record. This needs to be avoided, the lawyer could expedite a decision whether a formal entry will be or not be entered into the student's file. I do not know what state you are from and the penal, juvenile and education laws of your state.
As a former active duty AF intelligence officer, state prosecutor, criminal defense lawyer and now district judge; I can tell you I routinely review criminal records and will reflect when a person has been involved in an incident with the school district involving alcohol because the lawful drinking age here, and suspect in your jurisdiction is 21. Therefore, the person younger than 21 drinking may reflect a greater problem, a failure to adhere to the law and or a character flaw. In my state, the person's driving license and ability to secure a license may be revoked until age 21; the fact about the driver's license suspension in and of itself is not important the importance is the creation of a record discoverable by the U.S. government and Air Force will exist.
The issue can be compounded by failing to self-disclose, regardless personal legal actions and allowing the federal government, USAF discover it when they conduct a background check while a cadet, worse if later detected when Special Background Investigation (SBI) is conduct when every military officer is required to conduct their jobs, thereby perjury under oath in an official federal government document could ensue.
When the induction occurs there will be documents signed under oath requiring disclosure of contacts with law enforcement and officials regarding potentially criminal conduct whether or not a formal adjudication occurred. Our DD and DS will have to tell the truth.
Remember a wall inscribed at the USAFA, "We do not lie steal or cheat, nor will be tolerate who does."
This is an important moment, do not allow DS or DD not disclose, but work to minimize the damage have them conduct themselves in a responsible "officer like" manner, lead by example.
Regards,
I recommend that you disclose the "alcohol incident" immediately to the ALO. Second, retain a defense attorney that has specific experience with the Independent School District. I am from Texas, alcohol incidents will cause expulsion from the school district. Thereafter, the student and sometimes juveniles will be referred to the Juvenile Justice Alternative Education Program, aka "juvie school". At a minimum the school or the district will enter a negative event into the student's permanent record. This needs to be avoided, the lawyer could expedite a decision whether a formal entry will be or not be entered into the student's file. I do not know what state you are from and the penal, juvenile and education laws of your state.
As a former active duty AF intelligence officer, state prosecutor, criminal defense lawyer and now district judge; I can tell you I routinely review criminal records and will reflect when a person has been involved in an incident with the school district involving alcohol because the lawful drinking age here, and suspect in your jurisdiction is 21. Therefore, the person younger than 21 drinking may reflect a greater problem, a failure to adhere to the law and or a character flaw. In my state, the person's driving license and ability to secure a license may be revoked until age 21; the fact about the driver's license suspension in and of itself is not important the importance is the creation of a record discoverable by the U.S. government and Air Force will exist.
The issue can be compounded by failing to self-disclose, regardless personal legal actions and allowing the federal government, USAF discover it when they conduct a background check while a cadet, worse if later detected when Special Background Investigation (SBI) is conduct when every military officer is required to conduct their jobs, thereby perjury under oath in an official federal government document could ensue.
When the induction occurs there will be documents signed under oath requiring disclosure of contacts with law enforcement and officials regarding potentially criminal conduct whether or not a formal adjudication occurred. Our DD and DS will have to tell the truth.
Remember a wall inscribed at the USAFA, "We do not lie steal or cheat, nor will be tolerate who does."
This is an important moment, do not allow DS or DD not disclose, but work to minimize the damage have them conduct themselves in a responsible "officer like" manner, lead by example.
Regards,
Pima
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Mike,
I get what you are saying, and I agree talk to the ALO today. If they don't respond...leave a VM telling them it is an alcohol issue. I bet they will contact you very quickly.
For me what I am saying is schools have a right to place it on their permanent records. The ALO will need to know if this is now on his school records.
This is not IMPO a legal issue, it is a school issue, thus the question HS or college? HS the GC can place that in their file, especially if it resulted in a suspension of an kind...In school/out of school.
In college, at least the ones my kids attend, they signed paperwork regarding 0 tolerance for alcohol living in dorms. Again, if the school wants they can place it on their personal files.
Talk to the ALO yesterday!
I get what you are saying, and I agree talk to the ALO today. If they don't respond...leave a VM telling them it is an alcohol issue. I bet they will contact you very quickly.
For me what I am saying is schools have a right to place it on their permanent records. The ALO will need to know if this is now on his school records.
This is not IMPO a legal issue, it is a school issue, thus the question HS or college? HS the GC can place that in their file, especially if it resulted in a suspension of an kind...In school/out of school.
In college, at least the ones my kids attend, they signed paperwork regarding 0 tolerance for alcohol living in dorms. Again, if the school wants they can place it on their personal files.
Talk to the ALO yesterday!
First of all, many responders here have a lot more experience than I do so take my advice for what it may be worth - but it seems that the advice given needs to be dependant upon the specifics of the incident. - Were you caught sipping some beer that someone else brought to a high school dance or did you illegally buy liquor with a fake id, give it to other people and cause someone to be injured. If this was a very minor indescretion I'm not certain that you need to run off hire a criminal defense attorney for thousands of dollars and report to your ALO that you have committed a crime.
I know we signed some type of alcohol statement as part of the application. I dont drink so I didnt pay much attention to it but I think it dealt primarily with drinking and drug use after enrollment in the academy.
I am going to venture a guess that there are a fair number of successful military officers who may have had a beer or 2 in high school. Read the statement that you signed first and if you have clearly violated a some rule than report it but unless you agreed to report all disciplinary issues I would think twice about calling your ALO. The ALO is going to be required to report the incident and that could cause a serious problems. Speak to your school and see exactly what was documented. Many schools hold off on documenting these issues unless the offending student is a repeat offender. Other than possibly sending in final grades, I don't think that all high schools send a final report regarding discipline issues of all students.
I know we signed some type of alcohol statement as part of the application. I dont drink so I didnt pay much attention to it but I think it dealt primarily with drinking and drug use after enrollment in the academy.
I am going to venture a guess that there are a fair number of successful military officers who may have had a beer or 2 in high school. Read the statement that you signed first and if you have clearly violated a some rule than report it but unless you agreed to report all disciplinary issues I would think twice about calling your ALO. The ALO is going to be required to report the incident and that could cause a serious problems. Speak to your school and see exactly what was documented. Many schools hold off on documenting these issues unless the offending student is a repeat offender. Other than possibly sending in final grades, I don't think that all high schools send a final report regarding discipline issues of all students.
Christcorp
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Bill18939; the reason contacting your ALO is mentioned, is because TOO MANY TIMES, the applicant; (Usually one of their parents); don't understand what the rules, policies, documents, etc... actually say or mean. Many times, they actually report things that have no business being reported.
As for the part you said: "The ALO is going to be required to report the incident and that could cause a serious problems." That's simply inaccurate. If you bring it up to your ALO, and they look into it and they say: "You don't need to report that"; then that's the end of it. If they look into and say: "You NEED to report that". Then that's what you need to do. If you don't, then you have a problem. But it doesn't work the other way around. If you don't need to report something, the ALO isn't going to report it. They are the one who said don't report it. Why would they report it?
Again; the reason for talking to your ALO/BGO/MALO is because it usually winds up with a parent/applicant reporting things they probably shouldn't. Your ALO/BGO/MALO can find out whether or not whatever the circumstance, whether it needs to be reported or not. Of course, if they don't return your calls/emails, then I recommend contacting your academy counselor.
As for the part you said: "The ALO is going to be required to report the incident and that could cause a serious problems." That's simply inaccurate. If you bring it up to your ALO, and they look into it and they say: "You don't need to report that"; then that's the end of it. If they look into and say: "You NEED to report that". Then that's what you need to do. If you don't, then you have a problem. But it doesn't work the other way around. If you don't need to report something, the ALO isn't going to report it. They are the one who said don't report it. Why would they report it?
Again; the reason for talking to your ALO/BGO/MALO is because it usually winds up with a parent/applicant reporting things they probably shouldn't. Your ALO/BGO/MALO can find out whether or not whatever the circumstance, whether it needs to be reported or not. Of course, if they don't return your calls/emails, then I recommend contacting your academy counselor.
E8075
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Disclose or do not disclose...cont
I would consider the following AF FORM 2030 which is already apart of the appointee's application and determine whether a disclosure is warranted ...
AF FORM 2030, 20121107 Titled: USAF DRUG AND ALCOHOL ABUSE CERTIFICATE
It states in part, Section I, "ADVERSE ADJUDICATION: An adverse adjudication (adult or juvenile)is a finding, decision, sentence, or judgment, other than unconditionally dropped, dismissed, or acquitted. If the adjudicating authority places a condition or restraint that leads to dismissal, dropped charges, or acquittal, the adjudication is adverse. Suspension of sentence, pardon, not processed, or dismissal after compliance with imposed conditions is adverse adjudication."
Section II, CERTIFICATION AT TIME OF APPLICATION, "WARNING: YOU MUST BE TOTALLY HONEST IN COMPLETING THIS FORM. If you are truthful now and are accepted by the Air Force, no punitive no action can or will be taken against a civilian applicant as a result of any information you reveal. HOWEVER, YOU ARE CAUTIONED THAT SHOULD YOU CONCEAL DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE INFORMATION AT THIS TIME, AND IT IS DISCOVERED AFTER YOUR ENTRY INTO THE AIR FORCE, PUNITIVE ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU BASED UPON THE FALSE INFORMATION YOU HAVE PROVIDED. Such action includes, but is not limited to, elimination from training or discharge under less than honorable conditions." (Emphasis not changed, a direct quote.)
Consider Section III and it states in part, "Service in the United States Air Force places me in a position of special trust and responsibility. Drug or alcohol abuse after this date will be considered evidence of my inability to meet the standards of behavior expected of me as a member of the Air Force. Therefore, any drug use (including marijuana) or any alcohol abuse as described above, FROM THIS DATE FORWARD renders me ineligible for the Air Force."
Section III continues, "Drug and alcohol abuse by members of the U.S. Air Force violates Air Force standards of behavior and conduct and will not be tolerated. If I am identified as a drug or alcohol abuser while a member of the Air Force, appropriate disciplinary or administrative action may be taken
against me, to include trial by court martial or discharge under less than honorable conditions."
I would consider the following AF FORM 2030 which is already apart of the appointee's application and determine whether a disclosure is warranted ...
AF FORM 2030, 20121107 Titled: USAF DRUG AND ALCOHOL ABUSE CERTIFICATE
It states in part, Section I, "ADVERSE ADJUDICATION: An adverse adjudication (adult or juvenile)is a finding, decision, sentence, or judgment, other than unconditionally dropped, dismissed, or acquitted. If the adjudicating authority places a condition or restraint that leads to dismissal, dropped charges, or acquittal, the adjudication is adverse. Suspension of sentence, pardon, not processed, or dismissal after compliance with imposed conditions is adverse adjudication."
Section II, CERTIFICATION AT TIME OF APPLICATION, "WARNING: YOU MUST BE TOTALLY HONEST IN COMPLETING THIS FORM. If you are truthful now and are accepted by the Air Force, no punitive no action can or will be taken against a civilian applicant as a result of any information you reveal. HOWEVER, YOU ARE CAUTIONED THAT SHOULD YOU CONCEAL DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE INFORMATION AT THIS TIME, AND IT IS DISCOVERED AFTER YOUR ENTRY INTO THE AIR FORCE, PUNITIVE ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU BASED UPON THE FALSE INFORMATION YOU HAVE PROVIDED. Such action includes, but is not limited to, elimination from training or discharge under less than honorable conditions." (Emphasis not changed, a direct quote.)
Consider Section III and it states in part, "Service in the United States Air Force places me in a position of special trust and responsibility. Drug or alcohol abuse after this date will be considered evidence of my inability to meet the standards of behavior expected of me as a member of the Air Force. Therefore, any drug use (including marijuana) or any alcohol abuse as described above, FROM THIS DATE FORWARD renders me ineligible for the Air Force."
Section III continues, "Drug and alcohol abuse by members of the U.S. Air Force violates Air Force standards of behavior and conduct and will not be tolerated. If I am identified as a drug or alcohol abuser while a member of the Air Force, appropriate disciplinary or administrative action may be taken
against me, to include trial by court martial or discharge under less than honorable conditions."
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E8075,
You are correct and the form you quoted IS signed by all cadets on I-Day, after they've already done it during the application/appointment process.
BUT...one thing that must be made clear; and the ALO usually is the one to "harp" on this.
ALCOHOL ABUSE...is not "an alcohol incident." It is usually determined by a medical professional. This was briefed to us by USAFA/RRS. If a HS student "goes out and gets tanked..." and gets caught, that's most likely "minor in possession" or "public drunk, etc." It's not abuse. If they just "snuck a bottle from the family liquor cabinet and got drunk with a friend..." that's not alcohol abuse.
Chronic drinking might not even qualify as "abuse" (it would have to be determined by medico's)... however it would be looked upon VERY negatively as it shows the candidate is willing to break the law openly.
I have had candidates come to me to tell me "we won this big game...and somebody brought beer...and we all got trashed...do I put that on the form?" I said "no." It's not abuse, it was dumb; but hey, HS students do dumb things. BUT had he NOT told me and then brought it up on I Day...it might have been a very uncomfortable time until the folks at USAFA told him "okay...we know...don't do it again."
When in doubt, CALL THE ALO!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
You are correct and the form you quoted IS signed by all cadets on I-Day, after they've already done it during the application/appointment process.
BUT...one thing that must be made clear; and the ALO usually is the one to "harp" on this.
ALCOHOL ABUSE...is not "an alcohol incident." It is usually determined by a medical professional. This was briefed to us by USAFA/RRS. If a HS student "goes out and gets tanked..." and gets caught, that's most likely "minor in possession" or "public drunk, etc." It's not abuse. If they just "snuck a bottle from the family liquor cabinet and got drunk with a friend..." that's not alcohol abuse.
Chronic drinking might not even qualify as "abuse" (it would have to be determined by medico's)... however it would be looked upon VERY negatively as it shows the candidate is willing to break the law openly.
I have had candidates come to me to tell me "we won this big game...and somebody brought beer...and we all got trashed...do I put that on the form?" I said "no." It's not abuse, it was dumb; but hey, HS students do dumb things. BUT had he NOT told me and then brought it up on I Day...it might have been a very uncomfortable time until the folks at USAFA told him "okay...we know...don't do it again."
When in doubt, CALL THE ALO!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Christcorp
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Steve (Flieger), thanks for an excellent explanation. I knew I was looking for the difference; (Alcohol Abuse vs Alcohol Incident). Thanks for clarifying.