TWE

Where are the exact Admissions standards/qualifications defined (if you are implying that there should be candidates with a minimum academic record, why isn't that placed into law -- i.e. candidates must have 600CR/600M -- thus USNA would have no choice and the standard would be same for all and fair)? It isn't. The Admissions Board and staff is charged with picking candidates who they see has potential to LEAD our country (military, community, government, and beyond) -- so part of their job is to try and look in the "crystal ball" (which you are saying is not their job) and see who might fit that based on their history (application data). Based on the fact that Admissions has to "predict," I agree with others that the process is far from perfect. As nodiva stated eloquently, I do not envy the job the Admissions Office has....very hard to pick the "best" candidates AND juggle many other Admission related requirements.

At the end of the day, I think all that the taxpayer's care about is that those graduating will lead the "best and brightest" of our country in our Armed Forces.

What about leadership? I keep seeing references to academics/athletics. A football player in my company (not my class) struggled very hard academically, but was one of the most respected people in our company, because he was an outstanding leader. I do not know what his high school record and/or SAT/ACT scores were, but normally history repeats itself, so I am pretty sure he might be one where "Admissions bent the standards." He ended up going USMC and they got a great officer. Sailors and Marines give two hoots about what your class rank or QPR are, they care about whether you can lead or not. Admissions might have saw that he had leadership potential, despite lower grades and appointed him -- just because he might have had lower academics, in of itself, doesn't mean he should not have been appointed.

As many sub-par recruited athletes there are, I can count as many not in that category.
 
usnabgo08 said:
Where are the exact Admissions standards/qualifications defined? It isn't. The Admissions Board and staff is charged with picking candidates who they see has potential to LEAD our country (military, community, government, and beyond) -- so part of their job is to try and look in the "crystal ball" (which you are saying is not their job) and see who might fit that based on their history (application data). Based on the fact that Admissions has to "predict," I agree with others that the process is far from perfect. As nodiva stated eloquently, I do not envy the job the Admissions Office has....very hard to pick the "best" candidates AND juggle many other Admission related requirements.

At the end of the day, I think all that the taxpayer's care about is that those graduating will lead the "best and brightest" of our country in our Armed Forces.

What about leadership? I keep seeing references to academics/athletics. A football player in my company (not my class) struggled very hard academically, but was one of the most respected people in our company, because he was an outstanding leader. I do not know what his high school record and/or SAT/ACT scores were, but normally history repeats itself, so I am pretty sure he might be one where "Admissions bent the standards." He ended up going USMC and they got a great officer. Sailors and Marines give two hoots about what your class rank or QPR are, they care about whether you can lead or not. Admissions might have saw that he had leadership potential, despite lower grades and appointed him -- just because he might have had lower academics, in of itself, doesn't mean he should not have been appointed.

As many sub-par recruited athletes there are, I can count as many not in that category.
Click to expand...


I obviously have struck a nerve with you.

The point I've been addressing is that the Academy stresses high ACT/SAT scores along with superior academic performance, leadership and participation in athletics as significant areas that candidates should shrive to excel in.

In fact, academics and high ACT/SAT scores do take a back seat if the Academy has a recruited athlete it wants to admit. In various places in not only this year's forum but also in years past, some candidates TWE's have actually stated (look it up) that the area that concerned the Academy most in making the decision not to appoint them was that they did not make a 29/1330 on their ACT/SAT tests.

I'm not going to argue this point or any other point I've made in my prior posts on this subject with you any further.

However, I am going to leave you with a couple questions:

Have YOU ever wondered why the Academy doesn't publish a full range each year of Appointee's ACT/SAT scores and instead typically gives a range of usually around 1330 SAT/29 ACT in the annual Class Profile for the 25th through the 75th percentile of candidates appointed? Have you also wondered what the SAT/ACT scores were in that bottom 25%, how that affected academic performance and exactly how their appointments came about when other candidates received TWE's that indicated they were not being selected for appointment because their SAT/ACT scores didn't meet a 1330/29 threshold?

Rose colored glasses can be painful to wear but the fact remains that the Academy DOES recruit potential D-I athletes and is prepared to do what it takes to land them.
 
And I will close with that just because USNA does recruit, doesn't mean that the athletes who "land" there are not going to make it through or are not just as good leaders as their counterparts.

I am confident in what Admissions does -- the process might not be entirely fair or perfect -- but they do a great job year-in, year-out of doing the best they can to pick a balanced class.

Have you also wondered what the SAT/ACT scores were in that bottom 25%, how that affected academic performance and exactly how their appointments came about when other candidates received TWE's that indicated they were not being selected for appointment because their SAT/ACT scores didn't meet a 1330/29 threshold?
Click to expand...

It certainly is true that some recruited athletes are in that range, but they aren't the only ones. I guarantee there are other groups of candidates in there (and I don't mean "at-large" ones), too.
 
Emotions are running high here... Sorry so many have gotten the bad news. Most of us here will receive the same fate soon as that's just how the math works out. Its pretty simple.. If you choose to enter the game, you choose to play on a field where you will become average perhaps for the first time ever. No one can figure out the why... No one is in that room. Get you plans in place and move on. If you plan to reapply make sure your application is strong in ever area. It still may not be enough . Be sure to remember that next year when a new thread starts with a similar title.
 
I am so let down that this is what this forum has turned into. I am planning on using it for assistance for when/if my DS receives the TWE. I felt like the fire had been put out at one point last night (Sun night), and then the blame game began. Ugh! New lesson learned for me on this forum: When/if the dreaded TWE arrives, I am going to share the news with all of you gracefully. I will ache that my kind and hard-working DS did not receive an appointment, but I will trust the system and accept their decision that someone else presented himself/herself better than my DS.

To all still hurting, please try to relax, look positively towards Plan B, and give your DD/DS a big hug. Regardless of an appointment or not, they will be leaving "the nest" soon so enjoy every moment with him/her. I don't know about everyone else, but the last 18 years just flew by!
 
Last edited:
I definitely think that bub should pull kids from the Academy and send them to State U where no academically unqualified athletes attend on tax payer money (state taxes). And I hope bub never attends any USNA sporting events or feels any pride when Navy athletics excels. These kids are taking calculus and playing a D1 sport(s) but bub wants MOC to change this. To what? A more elite academic experience. Sorry, bub, but the marketing dollars generated by these athletes and the Foundation money donated and the pride of this D1 university trumps your grievances.
 
I would have to agree that in order to remain competitive in D1 there are some students that will need to be accepted perhaps with lower GPA's or test scores... It's like that everywhere. Navy is no different. They can accept or deny whomever they want to make a class that suits their needs.

One last thing ..I dont think posting stats here is a good idea.. It's like asking people here to validate that Navy or Congress got it wrong... I dont think it serves a positive purpose in any way . But that's just my opinion.
 
This all started after I posted my sons TWE and his extensive leadership background and I never posted scores until asked then it became a discussion that 33 English and 28 math ACTs were his problem and that basically his accomplishments were just average it turned into you all telling this nice person trying to explain athletics admissions that she should remove her kids to a state university? Obviously if his scores were to low he wouldn't have been fully qualified with 3 nominations his scores and transcripts were sent to the congressman and senators and he was still nominated in fact 5 nomination as 2 were to USMA. I would think his school transcripts with 2 years of advanced calculus with all A's for his grades would outweigh 1 exam with a 28 math score. She was just explaining that obviously ACT scores are not the deciding factor or that there are 2 different standards for athletes vs "other kids" which is not fair for admissions to kids without NCAA athletics. Unfortunately this discussion turned into people telling her to take her kids out of the Academy. Wow! I believe she is telling the truth and unfortunately this wasn't the first time I heard this but she doesn't deserve to be attacked. It is what it is and it has to be obvious athletics over leadership when it comes into the competition factors for admissions. That is all she is saying. She cited actual facts. I appreciate the information so thank you for being honest.
 
Any chance the Athletics vs. Leadership vs. SAT/ACT scores can start a new thread with an appropriate title? Or can the TWE thread be reserved for sharing the TWE news and Plan B's? These next 2 weeks are going to be filled with many, many TWE's and having an ongoing debate about a subject matter that none of us have any control over seems...well counterproductive at this time on this thread. I think we can all agree that there are strong points for both sides. Instead, have a statement ready for when/if the TWE arrives. When someone asks you: "So, did your DD/DS hear from the Naval Academy?" Please have a powerful statement ready like: "Unfortunately, they did not accept him/her this year, but the competition was fierce and I am proud of how far he/she made it in a truly grueling process! I am also thrilled that he/she will now be attending___________!" I plan on avoiding blaming anyone or any group for the TWE. I believe our kids were or are in this race because they never blamed anyone for a setback. They picked themselves up, dusted themselves off, and marched on! After all, I believe our kids are way more resilient in these matters than we are! ;)
 
bubalma said:
Exactly what BROAD generalization did I make?

I think I stated very clearly that most recruited athletes are well qualified but that Admissions is not hesitant to bend the qualification guidelines in order to appoint a recruited athlete that a Navy coaching staff really wants.

I don't think anyone - including you or I - has a crystal ball that can forecast which mids will eventually make great officers - whether they be a recruited athlete or not.

I'm not addressing eventual outcomes - I'm talking about the standards USNA wants the tax-paying public and Congress to believe and then the reality that those standards are bent on a somewhat regular basis because of D-I sports.

The Academy does want well-rounded Mids - both academically and athletically - but is willing to fudge if perceived needs dictate it.

It's the plain and simple truth and I can certainly list more cases of academically sub-par recruited athletes I've encountered over the years and I'll bet you can too.

Some of them turn out O.K. but some don't and need a lot of guidance. That can be very frustrating.
Click to expand...

Bend...How is this different than the real world. If a superior wants a specific person then they will get the job.

Being an athlete does help in making a great officer! IMHO as well as a great leader.

Frustrated??? Why some not RA's need a lot of guidance.

You seem to dislike the RA WHY??????????????
 
ca2nemom, the best advice we (BGOs) can give you is to have your son call Admissions to find out if this was simply a number games or if there was an area that became a hurdle. I wish you and your son the best.

If people are going to blame admissions for having a "double standard" on this forum, then there are an "n-th" number of standards that we seem to forget about, yet no one complains or suggest those are also a "problem" (they are definitely not an issue in my house). For example, some candidates of various backgrounds, some candidates in areas that are under-represented at USNA, etc. might (and I say might because their records might be very strong, as is...just like a recruited athlete might have a strong record) get more consideration. Having this representation at USNA is important to model the brigade after what the "real" Navy and Marine Corps look like. That is just how this process works. Every year, as a poster noted, we see the same this same debate. If "we" are extremely concerned that USNA is not admitting the "best of the best" then I would suggest those individual write their Members Of Congress stating such and with a solution to this problem vs. complaining about a broken process (and consistently blaming a certain group) on this board, if it is such a waste of taxpayers dollars.

Again, I have confidence in the Admissions Office to choose the right make-up of the class, a job that certainly isn't easy.

I agree with JTGib13, let's get this back on track!
 
This happened last year, too. The threads began to bash those who got in (principal noms, athletes, the kid from the state with 2 applicants) and the comparison of stats begins. It is really heartbreaking. My take on it is this:

We do not know what criteria the Ivies use to select students. Many SUPER qualified kids never get the opportunity to attend.
We do not know the "full range" of stats on kids at any university-just the medians.
We do not know the exact criteria used or the exact formula of the WCS at SAs.

Here's what I do know-so many very well qualified kids do not receive appointments. Many of those reapply and realize their dreams. Many others land elsewhere and thrive. Some kids go to an Academy, hate it and leave or get academically separated. I also know that these terrific kids (and their parents) have worked hard and have much to offer any school.

All of this is so very much like every university.

ca2mom: The only thing I can offer is that it is possible that your DS maxed out his leadership and possibly athletic score (although his teams/drill may not qualify in that category) but just needed a stronger academic profile. Think of it as "buckets" one can fill up (leadership) but the extra doesn't transfer to another bucket (like academics). Perhaps there is more focus on math ACT/SAT than we realize. My own DS retook the ACT one last time and he received his BFE 2 weeks after raising the ACT math into the mid 30s from 29/30 (I can't remember the exact scores right now). With fewer appointments available, it is so unfortunate that 1-2 points can change the picture but it seems like it may. If you read the reapplication thread I believe you will find hope that your DS may be successful as a re-applicant if that is his dream. As a Momma, I know you hurt for him. Be proud-he is a super accomplished, fantastic kid.

As the outgoing Commandant says- "Be Excellent." In this case we need to be excellent to each other.
 
The reality here is that the Academy can admit whoever they want and they are not bound by any one selection criteria when making a decision. That's just the way it is. Arguing about it is not going to change this fact.

Fact: A lot of money and manpower goes into maintaining each service academy. This is all paid for by the taxpayer. Nobody is entitled to anything. The goal of the service academy is to produce effective leaders upon graduation. Having a high SAT score by itself is not really an indicator that one has good potential to be an effective leader in the armed forces of the United States. Given the goal of the academy as just stated, if the choice is between the well-recommended Captain of a Varsity Football Team with mediocre ACT scores and a candidate with a perfect SAT but questionable activities that show leadership potential and initiative, who would you rather have leading a Marine platoon ?

I read this forum now and then. This issue always seems to come up. I know emotions run high and rejection is tough. But it is part of life. You can't always get what you want. There really isn't anything you can do but try again or move on. There are worse things that can happen to you in life than getting turned down by your school of choice. If service is really the goal then there is ROTC.
 
To everybody that is either upset or confused or mad that they didn't get in or their DS or DD didn't get in, I get it. As a DS, I definitely understand the emotion, I felt it last year. I was rejected from NROTC and the Naval Academy, yet got into all the military schools I applied to with their highest scholarships and one state school close to home. Life isn't fair. A lot of these kids who apply to service academies or ROTC programs obviously are highly motivated and have great resumes. One thing they all share is probably never experiencing failure. I thought I had failed when I didn't get in last year, but you have to look at the statistics. Approximately only 800 kids go to the academy right from high school. Thats like 16 kids from high school from each state (obviously those numbers are higher and lower in each state depending on population and interest), and you are competing against all these other highly motivated kids with amazing resumes. Unfortunately there is not space for everybody. You have to move on and if you really want it, try for next year and do everything that is recommended. Thats what I did. I ended up going to the state school near home. I played college soccer, joined Army ROTC (one thing I thought I'd never do) and held a full time construction job over the summer going out of town all throughout NY and Pennsylvania getting up at 5:30 am and working until 7 or 8 pm. All those things that I did increased my responsibility, time management, and leadership. What you have to realize is when you have that great of a resume (the type of resumes that a lot of these kids have) you have endless options and sooner rather than later, they will becoming after you. I joined Army ROTC after my college soccer season and came in and worked my tail off. I managed a 3.71 GPA in an engineering major. Now, guess whose coming after me?! The Army! My name was put in for a 3 year scholarship and I am receiving an award during our drill and ceremony in front of the Chancellor of the ROTC Host School. Life works in mysterious ways. Also, I told the major, who I signed up with in the program, about reapplying to the Naval Academy. The next time I saw him, he personally asked if he could write me a letter of recommendation for the Naval Academy. I was shocked. I ended up getting a letter from the battalion Lt. Colonel. I think my application is great this year, but who knows, maybe there isn't room for me again. I will not sit and be upset because I know getting into the Academy is very hard. I did all I can. But what I'm trying to say is, doors will open no matter where you go for kids like these and you have to move on because you know what, life isn't fair and we can't always get what we want. God has a plan and if its meant to be, its meant to be.
 
I haven't read ALL of this thread. It is so heart wrenching when those TWE arrive. Any individual that has made it this far is truly outstanding. I believe that every year there are amazing individuals that don't get in, not because they are deficit in anyway--just because there are only so many slots. While it seems most have their eye on the prize of getting into the academy; some forget the academy is simply a means to an end, these young men and women are going to serve our country out in the fleet as leaders. That is an awesome responsibility! We all have to remember it isn't just about test scores, or AP classes, grades, or any other one aspect. My belief is that diversity in our leadership is important. Sometimes the "smartest" individual doesn't always translate into the "best" leader.

It seems every year disappointment in a TWE translates into wanting to understand why--last year the athlete varible was brought up as well. Blue-chip athletes play a part in the equation of producing top leaders. Perhaps a few of those athletes have SAT/ACT scores that deviate below the norm (I really do not know), but does that translate into them not being officer material? I don't think so. The commitment varsity athletes have to make to their sport at the academy adds an entirely new hurdle to the ability to succeed at the academy. They have to actually work much harder than the NARPS! They must face obstacles that the NARPS do not have to deal with. My belief is that this extra layer contributes into making many of them outstanding officers.

The TWE is a painful blow to any individual who receives one. Years of hard work, dedication, and dreams seemingly crushed in a single blow, and yet I have no doubt that everyone who suffers that defeat is capable of far greater achievement than the vast majority of young people in this country today. Once you have recovered from this blow you will discover you have more opportunities than so many who never began this journey. There are other means to the end you seek. I hope you view that painful TWE as just another reason to go after your dream with even greater zeal. Follow your dream, and don't give up. The most successful people in life are those that have experienced the most failures. It's what you do after life lets you down that matters the most.
 
Last edited:
I think what a lot of people fail to remember is that admissions looks at much more than "stats". Sure, it does boil down to a score, but there's really more to it.

How about the kid who grew up on a farm & didn't have the leadership/athletic opportunities, but worked fulltime on that farm, went to school fulltime & still got top grades? (I know this kid, he was admitted non-IC)

How about that kid from a poor, single-parent family that didn't have the opportunity to travel internationally, let alone out of the inner city, but managed to stay out of trouble? (I know this kid, he was admitted non-IC)

How about that kid who grew up in foster care and still met all the criteria against all odds? (I know this kid, he was admitted non-IC)

How about that kid who help raise his siblings? Worked fulltime and still had tons of community service? (I know this kid, he was admitted non-IC)

There are so many variables and this is what admissions has to look at. That's why they have whole committees reviewing these things. They want to see people who commit to service, sacrifice, who can handle lots of tasks at once, who can overcome hardships - as well as determining if they can handle the academics along with everything else they have to do.

I said it before, I don't envy admissions' job, but I respect what they do.
 
AspiringSEAL said:
To everybody that is either upset or confused or mad that they didn't get in or their DS or DD didn't get in, I get it. As a DS, I definitely understand the emotion, I felt it last year. I was rejected from NROTC and the Naval Academy, yet got into all the military schools I applied to with their highest scholarships and one state school close to home. Life isn't fair. A lot of these kids who apply to service academies or ROTC programs obviously are highly motivated and have great resumes. One thing they all share is probably never experiencing failure. I thought I had failed when I didn't get in last year, but you have to look at the statistics. Approximately only 800 kids go to the academy right from high school. Thats like 16 kids from high school from each state (obviously those numbers are higher and lower in each state depending on population and interest), and you are competing against all these other highly motivated kids with amazing resumes. Unfortunately there is not space for everybody. You have to move on and if you really want it, try for next year and do everything that is recommended. Thats what I did. I ended up going to the state school near home. I played college soccer, joined Army ROTC (one thing I thought I'd never do) and held a full time construction job over the summer going out of town all throughout NY and Pennsylvania getting up at 5:30 am and working until 7 or 8 pm. All those things that I did increased my responsibility, time management, and leadership. What you have to realize is when you have that great of a resume (the type of resumes that a lot of these kids have) you have endless options and sooner rather than later, they will becoming after you. I joined Army ROTC after my college soccer season and came in and worked my tail off. I managed a 3.71 GPA in an engineering major. Now, guess whose coming after me?! The Army! My name was put in for a 3 year scholarship and I am receiving an award during our drill and ceremony in front of the Chancellor of the ROTC Host School. Life works in mysterious ways. Also, I told the major, who I signed up with in the program, about reapplying to the Naval Academy. The next time I saw him, he personally asked if he could write me a letter of recommendation for the Naval Academy. I was shocked. I ended up getting a letter from the battalion Lt. Colonel. I think my application is great this year, but who knows, maybe there isn't room for me again. I will not sit and be upset because I know getting into the Academy is very hard. I did all I can. But what I'm trying to say is, doors will open no matter where you go for kids like these and you have to move on because you know what, life isn't fair and we can't always get what we want. God has a plan and if its meant to be, its meant to be.
Click to expand...

Incredibly well said. Thank you for your willingness to serve - regardless of your school colors.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top