Two Cadets Face Court Martial for Sexual Assaults

[LurkingQuietly]

Yes if a Cadet or Mid is brought in for questioning they are given the military's version of their rights.

You're only read Miranda in Civilian world if you're being arrested, police interrogate all the time without them. I don't think its wise to assume CGIS notifies witness's of their rights to counsel unless they are actually arresting them. CGIS is going to interview anyone who had any contact with these two cadets including anyone in their company/team/club. Its a very small school.

My question was more along the lines that if a cadet asks for counsel, does it reflect badly on their career going forward. Would this create an "indelible impression of guilt"? Thessalonians 5:22.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The definition of detainment for members of the military is more liberal. That's where Tempia comes into it (and the cadets are active duty members).


The rumors will happen but I think it becomes clear who was just questioned as a friend or questioned for wrong doing.

Cadets can also be in trouble for not reporting an offense.

I can't imagine being involved would help their image. It's a small school and a small fleet.

 

[grevar]

Just to clarify....

There are many times when Miranda is read in civilian law enforcement when an arrest has not been made. Miranda must be read if the the subject is not free to leave or even has the idea that he's not free to leave. No Miranda is necessary if the interview is non custodial and the subject is advised he is free to leave at anytime.

 

[Wishful]

Custody + Interrogation='s Miranda. Both are need for Miranda to apply.
A quick history lesson:

Ernesto Miranda’s crime, as I recall, was that he kidnapped & raped a developmentally delayed young girl from a bus stop. Afterwards, being a gentleman, he returned her to the stop. The police were called, a report taken, but they disbelieved the victims’ story. A family member now accompanied the victim at the bus stop. One day while they were waiting, Miranda drove past; the victim recognized the car & the license plate # was recorded. When the detectives went out to interview him, they noticed a rope tied to the rear of the front seat of his car, a fact mentioned in the victim's report. With their suspicions now raised, Miranda was arrested & brought in. He "confessed" (the usual result of 1960’s detective interrogations) after which a "show-up" was conducted where the victim just "happened" to walk by Miranda handcuffed in the squad room, a tactic no longer legal. His case went to the Supreme Court, he was found not guilty, & the rest is history....except that Miranda was later stabbed to death in a bar fight. Karma, it seems, can be a b*#@h!

FYI: law enforcement really has no issues with Miranda Warnings. They are part of the job & a good detective is quite capable of bringing a prosecutable case to the DA’s office with these rights intact.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Tempia involves the fact that service members may feel they're in custody, given less freedom to move.

If you're on a ship being questioned, you may not be in cuffs, but because there's some assumption that you're not exactly free to just walk away, Tempia is in play.

 

[Mlt852]

Custody + Interrogation='s Miranda. Both are need for Miranda to apply.
A quick history lesson:

Ernesto Miranda’s crime, as I recall, was that he kidnapped & raped a developmentally delayed young girl from a bus stop. Afterwards, being a gentleman, he returned her to the stop. The police were called, a report taken, but they disbelieved the victims’ story. A family member now accompanied the victim at the bus stop. One day while they were waiting, Miranda drove past; the victim recognized the car & the license plate # was recorded. When the detectives went out to interview him, they noticed a rope tied to the rear of the front seat of his car, a fact mentioned in the victim's report. With their suspicions now raised, Miranda was arrested & brought in. He "confessed" (the usual result of 1960’s detective interrogations) after which a "show-up" was conducted where the victim just "happened" to walk by Miranda handcuffed in the squad room, a tactic no longer legal. His case went to the Supreme Court, he was found not guilty, & the rest is history....except that Miranda was later stabbed to death in a bar fight. Karma, it seems, can be a b*#@h!

FYI: law enforcement really has no issues with Miranda Warnings. They are part of the job & a good detective is quite capable of bringing a prosecutable case to the DA’s office with these rights intact.

The Warren Court presumed (i.e. they did hear any evidence to that fact, they just presumed it) that suspects in custody have a compulsion to confess (in part because of coercive tactics), the Miranda admonishment is intended to neutralize that inherent compulsion. A 5-4 decision. The US Supreme Court has heard over 50 cases related to Miranda since it came down in 1966. I believe Roe v. Wade is less than 10. Regarding a good detective bringing a case without statements, it is true cases are brought without statements. But look at FBI clearance rates since 1966 of Part I crimes (murder, rape, robbery), they have gone down. The only significant change is Miranda... And yes, Miranda was the victim of a homicide that remains unsolved, the sole suspect invoked his rights and fled.

 

[USCGA_2018]

It's terrible to see young lives derailed. These are serious accusations with significant consequences.

What are the FACTS? Most of us only know what we read in a couple of publications. Those articles do not give details or any mitigating circumstances.

Is it safe at USCGA? Is justice being served?

Perhaps none of this should be commented on, but I'd like to see the accused receive some sort of presumption of innocence. So I will share what I was told.

Regarding the wrestler that was just sentenced to 1 year... He was well liked and respected on campus. His one night stand with a girl resulted in her filing a complaint. The cadet was prepared to face the charges, but the accuser dropped her complaint. It is believed by many cadets at the Academy, that the accuser, who had a boyfriend, was filing an invalid complaint. Even though charges were dropped, CGIS still pushed forward. It is my understanding that many cadets, both male and female feel that this cadet got a bad deal.

Regarding the football player... He and his accuser dated and were widely considered boyfriend and girlfriend. I have no knowledge of the incident that precipitated and warrant the charges. I have been told that the view of this cadets case is somewhat split among the cadets across gender. There is a shared belief among some that the accuser does not wish to serve in the Coast Guard and that this sexual assault charge is related to her achieving that end.

I'm just a parent that read some horrible things here and asked my own cadet what was going on? One cadets view is just that. We are in no position to judge the guilt or innocence of the accused, but everyone should realize and understand that there are two or more sides to every story.

Future cadets and their parents need not worry that there is some lack of institutional control or that these behaviors permeate the campus. I am certain that they do not. These are two unique, unfortunate, and unrelated incidents.

I'd like to think that something positive can come of these incidents. I see these horrible headlines and think that there must be something more to it. There has to be details and facts that we are not fully aware of. While these cadets may be deemed unfit to serve and lead... I don't believe that they were ticking time bombs that just snapped and become monsters some random evening.

These young men made tremendous sacrifice and commitment for nearly 4 years before getting derailed. I hope that they are able to get their lives back on track. My thoughts and prayers are also with the alleged victims that they can also move forward peacefully and positively.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I've heard neither is close to being a saint. They have no place in the service or academy.

 

[Freda'sMom]

Perhaps none of this should be commented on, but I'd like to see the accused receive some sort of presumption of innocence.

There is no "presumption of innocence" after you have been convicted. That goes away as soon as the guilty verdict is announced.

You are no longer "accused" of sexual assault, you a convict, guilty of sexual assault.

And will now serve time in prison for the crime.

 

[brovol]

You're only read Miranda in Civilian world if you're being arrested, police interrogate all the time without them. I don't think its wise to assume CGIS notifies witness's of their rights to counsel unless they are actually arresting them. CGIS is going to interview anyone who had any contact with these two cadets including anyone in their company/team/club. Its a very small school.

My question was more along the lines that if a cadet asks for counsel, does it reflect badly on their career going forward. Would this create an "indelible impression of guilt"? Thessalonians 5:22.

Actually, the threshold for Miranda is not "arrest", but rather a "custodial interrogation"; essentially, is a person being questioned under circumstances when most people would believe they are not free to walk away.

 

[No1Fanof2]

These type statements unless used as part of the whole trial shouldn't even be placed on the forum. Wouldn't any current cadet saying these things further than outside their head be walking a thin line of getting themselves in trouble...honor violations themselves? Those are just as serious allegations. I can agree to more to the story but some of the stories really shouldn't be spoken about on here. Just the facts mam (or sir)....

It is believed by many cadets at the Academy, that the accuser, who had a boyfriend, was filing an invalid complaint.

There is a shared belief among some that the accuser does not wish to serve in the Coast Guard and that this sexual assault charge is related to her achieving that end.

 

[Hurricane12]

It's terrible to see young lives derailed. These are serious accusations with significant consequences.

What are the FACTS? Most of us only know what we read in a couple of publications. Those articles do not give details or any mitigating circumstances.

Is it safe at USCGA? Is justice being served?

Perhaps none of this should be commented on, but I'd like to see the accused receive some sort of presumption of innocence. So I will share what I was told.
.

"Guys, let's focus on the facts. Now, listen to these third hand rumors that show the women as whores and the accused as Eagle Scouts."

 

[USCGA_2018]

"Guys, let's focus on the facts. Now, listen to these third hand rumors that show the women as whores and the accused as Eagle Scouts."

This is a huge misrepresentation of my comments.

Was I given erroneous information regarding the civilian case being dropped, yet pursued by CGIS? Please correct the record then.

Was I given erroneous information regarding an ongoing relationship between the accused and the accuser prior to any incident? Please correct the record then.

My cadet, like all cadets, respects and honors the UCMJ. It doesn't mean they have to agree with the outcome.

The last time I posted here was several months ago regarding the cheating scandal at USCGA. It involved several dozen students and ultimately a few were separated as a result. I had no dog in the fight as my DS was not involved, but I still thought that the attacks and universal condemnation piled on the cadets on this forum was unwarranted and unrelenting.

Why is it so appealing for some people to come on these forums to bully posters and disparage cadets?

MODERATORS - Do us all a favor and take down this thread - Please

 

[rjb]

This is a huge misrepresentation of my comments.

Why is it so appealing for some people to come on these forums to bully posters and disparage cadets?

MODERATORS - Do us all a favor and take down this thread - Please

Welcome to the world of hypocritical - holier that thou - posters on this forum. (Unfortunately, many of them are parents.)

I often recommend this forum to aspiring cadets / midshipmen & parents. It is unfortunate that I have to warn them to read between the lines.

 

[JMC0759]

You're only read Miranda in Civilian world if you're being arrested, police interrogate all the time without them. I don't think its wise to assume CGIS notifies witness's of their rights to counsel unless they are actually arresting them. CGIS is going to interview anyone who had any contact with these two cadets including anyone in their company/team/club. Its a very small school.

My question was more along the lines that if a cadet asks for counsel, does it reflect badly on their career going forward. Would this create an "indelible impression of guilt"? Thessalonians 5:22.

A final thought on giving the Warning and I'm not sure how this thread veered off course - and this is my experience as a reader of the Miranda Warning for the last 36+ years. If you are going to interview a suspect in the field, in your office or in the jail whether they are free to go or not - you read them their rights. Why? Because you don't want to get in front of a jury while being roasted by some 20-something court-appointed defense attorney for violating their clients rights. It makes the jury think YOU did something wrong. A positive is that giving the warning makes suspects realize that you are serious and that you probably know the whole story already anyway....

And as a poster has already stated, sexual assaults involving alcohol and that are delayed in being reported are difficult to prove. There is usually no physical evidence left, victim and suspect usually have clouded memories of the event and you have to decide who to believe. "He said, she said."

And a sure way to find yourself on the unemployment line is to ever question the truthfulness of a sexual assault victim.

 

[Hurricane12]

This is a huge misrepresentation of my comments.

(more words)

Why is it so appealing for some people to come on these forums to bully posters and disparage cadets?

MODERATORS - Do us all a favor and take down this thread - Please

If I read your post correctly you are a parent who is hearing stuff from your kid about what's happening. Your kid may have the best of intentions, but (unfortunately) I know enough about both military sexual assault and the rumor mill to know he likely doesn't have the full story.

You don't have personal knowledge of the incident. By posting rumors about the alleged relationship status of the victims or their motives ("She's just trying to get out of the Coast Guard") without actually knowing what you're talking about you are discrediting that individual and you are the one disparaging cadets.
Maybe the accusers in this case are lying and the accused are stand up guys. It's rare, but it happens. Maybe the accused are rapists. Maybe, like most cases, it's really messy.

If you think I'm bullying you...well, dude, if you're that touchy I can't help you there.

 

[Capt MJ]

One of the things drilled into me by JAGs over the years, especially in cases where there might be only two people in the room when an alleged event happened who actually know what happened, or an event was directly observed by a person making a statement, or it was filmed, is that everything else is hearsay. By the time that hearsay gets passed along by others, it's been consciously or unconsciously flavored. Even the facts as understood and related by, say, the two people in the room, or a direct observer, vary, based on their perceptions, biases, expectations, beliefs.

The military is generally unable to release facts pertinent to an investigation, for privacy act reasons. That allows speculation and hearsay to fill the void.

Everyone, in divisive and messy cases like these, is going to have an opinion based on what they have heard, hearsay notwithstanding.

As I have noted in other threads, "good mids/cadets do bad things sometimes." That may be the case here, or not.

In addition to familiar charges, that may or may not be upheld, such as rape or sexual assault, the military also has the convenient options of charging "conduct unbecoming" or "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline." These can be broadly interpreted and often become the basis for a guilty finding and eventual separation.

 

[cb7893]

By posting rumors about the alleged relationship status of the victims or their motives ("She's just trying to get out of the Coast Guard") without actually knowing what you're talking about you are discrediting that individual and you are the one disparaging cadets.

+1

Rumor monger complaining of being bullied? That's rich.

 

[LineInTheSand]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! A parent was given false information.

 

[USCGA_2018]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! A parent was given false information.

LITS, are you stating for the record the following....

The civilian accuser DID NOT drop all charges.
The football player and his accuser DID NOT have a prior romantic relationship.
The accuser of the football player DID NOT ask to be released from her service obligation to the Coast Guard.


For the record... I do not know either of the accused or either of the accusers. I make no proclamation of their guilt or innocence.

I don't understand, why would current cadets (not involved with these cases) not be trusted to be truthful or forthcoming? Why aren't their opinions and observations relevant in the court of public opinion?

Why is it so hard for you or anyone to believe that many cadets would side with their classmate as opposed to a civilian in a he sad/she said incident that the charges were dropped?

Why is it so hard for you or anyone to believe that cadets would align with their classmates in a he said/she said incident along gender bias?

Are there no lessons to be learned here? No cautionary tales? Are you simply basking in the glory of another cadet's demise?