My thoughts as well.
Uniform Dispute : Petty or Justified?
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Certainly makes one feel good about their judgement
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raimius
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AF and Army did move more toward Multi-cam, which is a fairly capable pattern in many environments.
I remember when the cadets at USAFA started switching to ABUs. Have people try to move through the woods in BDUs and ABUs..."Oh, look, there's a 4 dig there...and there...and there...oh, two more over there!"
I remember when the cadets at USAFA started switching to ABUs. Have people try to move through the woods in BDUs and ABUs..."Oh, look, there's a 4 dig there...and there...and there...oh, two more over there!"
I SAW NUTZING!NorwichDad said:
scoutpilot
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An excellent point. Thanks for posting it!
The USMC makes good use of its smaller size and more focused role to cultivate an organizational ethos that, in most cases, transcends MOS designations.
In many ways, the Army is too big to achieve that. Among FORSCOM units, the amazing history of the US Army exists on a much more unit-specific level. The 101st beats its history into its soldiers' heads, as does the 82nd. The 1st Cav is a culture unto itself (for better or worse). By and large, you will always find the proudest and best conventional soldiers in XVIIIth Airborne Corps, as well as the best historical ties. The history of the Army is so wide spanning, though, and we do a bad good of ingraining it across the organization. I think a large part of that is our leadership's endless effort to reinvent the Army culture. Very little has a chance to set in.
USMCGrunt
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Scout makes an excellent observation and point. Never really thought about the cultural ethos of the USMC vs Army vs individual Army units. Makes a lot of sense.
Also agree that the constant reinvention being forced on the Army by top staff prevents a culture to develop and take hold.
Also agree that the constant reinvention being forced on the Army by top staff prevents a culture to develop and take hold.
scoutpilot
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Most posts are very tied to their units' history. Fort Drum had Riva Ridge Loop, Camp Hale Rd, 45th Infantry Gate, etc. Some have been changed to reflect new history (Euphrates Valley Rd), which while it seems nouveau to us will someday tie future Mountain Soldiers to the heroism of the 2nd Brigade, 10th MTN in Iraq's triangle of death.
Overall, it's a big cultural difference. The USMC has the Marine Corps Museum. The Army has an Infantry Museum, the Patton Armor Museum, the Army Aviation Museum, etc. A lot of that, in my opinion, is a result of the fact that armies have been around much longer than marines. When the US Army came into existence, it drew on European traditions of the time, where soldiers had become specialized and thus differentiated from one another in dress for identification on the battlefield. This led to a very branch-centric identity. Artillerymen are still Redlegs and will defiantly wear red socks with their blues. Even our uniforms play into the branch culture, with the officers of each branch wearing the branch color on their epaulettes, sleeves, and cover (aviation has terrible colors, btw).
The Marines started as one thing: ship-borne riflemen/swordsmen for close-in fighting and only differentiated later into their myriad specialties they have now. Starting with a singular identity and diversifying carefully is easier and more effective than falling in on a differentiated model and trying to forge a singular identity. Combine those facts with the relative sizes/roles and you get two very different cultures.
We are, in many ways, slaves to our own history.
Overall, it's a big cultural difference. The USMC has the Marine Corps Museum. The Army has an Infantry Museum, the Patton Armor Museum, the Army Aviation Museum, etc. A lot of that, in my opinion, is a result of the fact that armies have been around much longer than marines. When the US Army came into existence, it drew on European traditions of the time, where soldiers had become specialized and thus differentiated from one another in dress for identification on the battlefield. This led to a very branch-centric identity. Artillerymen are still Redlegs and will defiantly wear red socks with their blues. Even our uniforms play into the branch culture, with the officers of each branch wearing the branch color on their epaulettes, sleeves, and cover (aviation has terrible colors, btw).
The Marines started as one thing: ship-borne riflemen/swordsmen for close-in fighting and only differentiated later into their myriad specialties they have now. Starting with a singular identity and diversifying carefully is easier and more effective than falling in on a differentiated model and trying to forge a singular identity. Combine those facts with the relative sizes/roles and you get two very different cultures.
We are, in many ways, slaves to our own history.
I don't think these soldiers would agree with your assessment:
The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight!
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26 January 1952
Why in hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can't they be like Marines.
Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918
I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!
General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur; Korea, 21 September 1950
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff
during the assault on Grenada, 1983
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
A Marine should be sworn to the patient endurance of hardships, like the ancient knights; and it is not the least of these necessary hardships to have to serve with sailors.
Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery
The Marine Corps has just been called by the New York Times, 'The elite of this country.' I think it is the elite of the world.
Admiral William Halsey, U.S. Navy
I can't say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like 'brilliant,' it would really be an under description of the absolutely superb job that they did in breaching the so-called 'impenetrable barrier.' It was a classic- absolutely classic- military breaching of a very very tough minefield, barbed wire, fire trenches-type barrier.
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U. S. ArmyCommander, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991
The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.
Gen. John "Black Jack" Pershing, U.S. Army
Commander of American Forces in World War I
Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army.
Orders given to Communist troops in the Korean War;
shortly afterward, the Marines were ordered
to not wear their khaki leggings.
The American Marines have it [pride], and benefit from it. They are tough, cocky, sure of themselves and their buddies. They can fight and they know it.
General Mark Clark, U.S. Army
Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary.
Gen. A. M. Gray, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps
If I had one more division like this First Marine Division I could win this war.
General of the Armies Douglas McArthur in Korea,
overheard and reported by Marine Staff Sergeant Bill Houghton, Weapons/2/5
There are some very accomplished soldiers quoted above. The Marine Corps has a long, bloody and glorious history. When our nation has called, Marines have responded.
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No denying Marines can certainly talk about themselves on and on and on.
Probably have more than their share of relationships ending before they even started for that very reason.
Probably have more than their share of relationships ending before they even started for that very reason.
No denying Marines can certainly talk about themselves on and on and on.
Probably have more than their share of relationships ending before they even started for that very reason.
It looks to me, from the quotes in my post above, that quite a few non-Marines talk about the USMC with admiration.
Is the Coast Guard still under the Department of Transportation?
If the MARPAT uniform is the best then let's give it to all the services. We should be giving all of our US servicemembers the best gear. Each service has its own way of making these uniforms "their own" with EGAs, rank insignia, covers, patches, boots, etc.
When I was at USNA I happened to take a class on the History of the USMC. "Do we need a Marine Corps?" was one of the first things we studied in this class. It created some great debate and discussion amongst a bunch of motivated Midshipmen within months of getting their EGAs. Do we really need a Marine Corps? I do not know, maybe, maybe not. I mean there are a million ways to argue this point? Do we need an Air Force? Why don't we just have the US Armed Forces with an Air Corps, Navy, and Ground Force? We have gotten to where we are today because each service has proven what they do works and at some point served as a vital asset to the US during wartime. When will the next amphibious raid be conducted? Who knows, but I am sure one day we will again. During the last decade we have gotten away from some of these specific service specialties to fight wars on two fronts and support a variety of other GWOT missions. The Navy and Air Force have been supporting alot of the ground missions, which is not in the "norm" for them. As we continue to downsize our forces, each service will more than ever be needed when the flag is raised to not only perform their own unique missions, but support the others.
When I was at USNA I happened to take a class on the History of the USMC. "Do we need a Marine Corps?" was one of the first things we studied in this class. It created some great debate and discussion amongst a bunch of motivated Midshipmen within months of getting their EGAs. Do we really need a Marine Corps? I do not know, maybe, maybe not. I mean there are a million ways to argue this point? Do we need an Air Force? Why don't we just have the US Armed Forces with an Air Corps, Navy, and Ground Force? We have gotten to where we are today because each service has proven what they do works and at some point served as a vital asset to the US during wartime. When will the next amphibious raid be conducted? Who knows, but I am sure one day we will again. During the last decade we have gotten away from some of these specific service specialties to fight wars on two fronts and support a variety of other GWOT missions. The Navy and Air Force have been supporting alot of the ground missions, which is not in the "norm" for them. As we continue to downsize our forces, each service will more than ever be needed when the flag is raised to not only perform their own unique missions, but support the others.
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Noooo... have someone who can read and write google it for you.
Of course, sometime Marines even talk about others....
Noooo... have someone who can read and write google it for you.
Of course, sometime Marines even talk about others....
It is obvious that you are the one that can't read. I posted quotes directly attributed to senior Army leaders. You responded by saying that Marines know how to talk about themselves.
I respect all the branches of the service, and never denegrate one unless it is good natured ribbing with friends.
Does the Marine Corps train it's people to believe that they are the world's greatest fighting force? Absolutely. The pride in the Marine Corps is instilled from the morning a recruit gets off the bus at San Diego or Parris Island, and Marine Corps history is taught every single day. That is why you see Marine emblems and bumper stickers on more cars than any of the other branches combined. Pretty amazing considering the USMC is the smallest branch.
Regarding your picture, thanks.
scoutpilot
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My questions to you:
1. Do you ever think critically about the veracity of quotes found on the Internet? Those quotes are attributed to those senior leaders, most often by Marines.
2. Do you think that some other services have failed to answer the nation's call?
3. Do you really know what has actually been said about the Marines, and by whom?
As much as I respect the Gyrenes as a fighting force, they are masters at making up their lore. Take, for example, your username. Did you know that the Germans never called the Marines "Teufel Hünden," from whence your Devil Dog moniker comes? True story. The legend of German imperial soldiers at Belleau Wood calling Marines by that name is a fabrication, the result of a Marine recruiting sergeant, believed to be in the Chicago area, though sometimes attributed to a war correspondent named Floyd Gibbons.
Teufel Hünden is not only grammatically incorrect (the correct form would be Teufelshünde), it is also not a word in the German language. An actual German, had he intended to call the Marines "Devil Dogs" would have used the known word "Höllenhünde." In fact, no German source can be found at all for the term, or it's application to the Marines. Lastly, the legend of the Bulldog Fountain is also taken to be apocryphal, as the Marines only fought in the woods. Belleau itself was taken by the Army.
As my grandfather, who was a veteran of 1st Ranger Company (Airborne) in Korea, and a member of the Ranger Hall of Fame, used to say:
"Of course you always hear about the Marines in Korea. They put a g****mn camera on every hilltop."
Don't give in to the pettiness this article was discussing. You're better than that. The USCG remark? Petty. Even I, just some Army guy, have spent enough time with waves licking at the skids in poor weather to know it takes a brass pair to steam or fly to the rescue of those in peril, or to interdict those doing wrong, or to drive Marines and Soldiers to the beach. It wouldn't matter if they were under the Forestry Service. When called, they respond.
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No disrepsect to folks quoted or Marines that served during that time, but what's important is the present and the future. The United States Army has a long, bloody and glorious history ALSO. When our nation has called, Army have responded ALSO.
As stated before I am not disrepecting the Marine Corps. As stated, the follow up discussions shows why the uniform issue is pettty. If we assume that the Marines are superior fighting force, my reply is that so what as it is not big enough to meet all of our defense need. I have no doubt in my mind that the Army Rangers is superior, but it only makes up a tiny percentage of the Army. As someone posted, serious discussions should be based on facts, not emotion.
Luigi59
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It is? Since when is 200,000 smaller than 42,000?
One more thing, nothing glorious about dying or killing for your country.
It has to be done and that's why humans been doing it for a long time.
I haven't killed anyone for our country. If I have to, I will. But, I don't find it "glorious." If I get killed while serving, I am okay with it. But, I don't find it "glorious" for myself nor my family.
It has to be done and that's why humans been doing it for a long time.
I haven't killed anyone for our country. If I have to, I will. But, I don't find it "glorious." If I get killed while serving, I am okay with it. But, I don't find it "glorious" for myself nor my family.
My questions to you:
1. Do you ever think critically about the veracity of quotes found on the Internet? Those quotes are attributed to those senior leaders, most often by Marines.
2. Do you think that some other services have failed to answer the nation's call?
3. Do you really know what has actually been said about the Marines, and by whom?
As much as I respect the Gyrenes as a fighting force, they are masters at making up their lore. Take, for example, your username. Did you know that the Germans never called the Marines "Teufel Hünden," from whence your Devil Dog moniker comes? True story. The legend of German imperial soldiers at Belleau Wood calling Marines by that name is a fabrication, the result of a Marine recruiting sergeant, believed to be in the Chicago area, though sometimes attributed to a war correspondent named Floyd Gibbons.
Teufel Hünden is not only grammatically incorrect (the correct form would be Teufelshünde), it is also not a word in the German language. An actual German, had he intended to call the Marines "Devil Dogs" would have used the known word "Höllenhünde." In fact, no German source can be found at all for the term, or it's application to the Marines. Lastly, the legend of the Bulldog Fountain is also taken to be apocryphal, as the Marines only fought in the woods. Belleau itself was taken by the Army.
As my grandfather, who was a veteran of 1st Ranger Company (Airborne) in Korea, and a member of the Ranger Hall of Fame, used to say:
"Of course you always hear about the Marines in Korea. They put a g****mn camera on every hilltop."
Don't give in to the pettiness this article was discussing. You're better than that. The USCG remark? Petty. Even, just some Army guy, have spent enough time with waves licking at the skids in poor weather to know it takes a brass pair to steam or fly to the rescue of those in peril, or to interdict those doing wrong, or to drive Marines and Soldiers to the beach. It wouldn't matter if they were under the Forestry Service. When called, they respond.
That Department of Transportation remark still gets the Coasties all riled up. Amazing, I have not asked a Coastie that in more than 30 years. I can't believe the reaction. Of course I know the Coast Guard is under the Department of Homeland Security. I think the Coast Guard has a wonderful mission. I even encouraged my son to consider the Coast Guard Academy. He went there on a recruiting visit and the moron Football coach made a really stupid comment that made his decision easier between USNA and USAFA.
As for Devil Dog, I was not there so I can not refute it.
As for your Grandfather's comment about cameras on every hill, I have heard the same comment from Army and Navy friends of mine forever. When the ---- hits the fan, who gets called first?
Does the Marine Corps use propoganda? Of course. How else would you get people to enlist in a branch of the service that is first to hit the beaches, and has an extremely high casualty rate?
Sorry ScoutPilot, I misread the posty and thought it was a LITS post. I have no problem with any branch of the service. They all have their mission.
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Marine Corps is no where near the smallest branch.
I have not disrespected the Army and would never do that. I know they have a long illustrious history. But, by you saying that the Marine Corps should be folded or however you termed it, you are disrespecting the USMC.
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To tell you the truth, at the end of my time in the Coast Guard, I would have MUCH preferred to be back in DOT over DHS. DHS is a miserable organization. The money is better (or was at least) for the Coast Guard under DHS, but there have been some serious growing pains.
At least the Secretary of Transportation showed up for the Secretary's Cup. Apparently J. Nap's too busy.
Whether it be 1790-1967 in Treasury, 1967-2003 in Transportation or 2003-present, the Coast Guard has kept it's own identity or personality.
Of course, when the USCG was still in DOT, I felt like I had some connection with the Tennessee DOT trucks I saw on the shoulders of TN interstates.
Now, I just associate DHS with frowns (or dirty sailor words).
At least the Secretary of Transportation showed up for the Secretary's Cup. Apparently J. Nap's too busy.
Whether it be 1790-1967 in Treasury, 1967-2003 in Transportation or 2003-present, the Coast Guard has kept it's own identity or personality.
Of course, when the USCG was still in DOT, I felt like I had some connection with the Tennessee DOT trucks I saw on the shoulders of TN interstates.
Now, I just associate DHS with frowns (or dirty sailor words).