Uniform Dispute : Petty or Justified?

[USMCGrunt]

I don't really remember if there were classes on Marine Corps history after Basic Training.

Hey Devil Dog: There may not have been classes, but don't forget about the reminders all around you (base names, street names, etc) and the annual celebration of the USMC Birthday. These and probably many more things I am forgetting reinforce the history lessons you had in boot camp on a daily basis.

 

[DevilDog]

Hey Devil Dog: There may not have been classes, but don't forget about the reminders all around you (base names, street names, etc) and the annual celebration of the USMC Birthday. These and probably many more things I am forgetting reinforce the history lessons you had in boot camp on a daily basis.

I agree with you. We definitely were indoctrinated on the history of our glorious Corps. I remember the street signs at PI some were named after the Pacific Islands.

I seem to think there may have been some classes after Basic with my unit, not on a regular basis, maybe monthly. It has been a long time.

I watched a movie the other night which Val Kilmer played a DI, that movie brought back a lot of memories of boot camp.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I would guess that's how must services name their streets, buildings and units.

While I was at CGHQ I was the secretary of the naming board. Streets and spaces were at the discretion of.... either unit or district commanders. Buildings and cutters were voted on by the naming board and approved by the Commandant.

The streets I've seen (and there aren't that many streets on Coast Guard bases) are named after ships or aircraft or people.

I would venture to guess that the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force have something similar.

No doubt the Marine Corps knows its own history. I don't think that makes it a better fighting force, but I do think it could help with retention, if not morale.

 

[USMCGrunt]

I am not surprised that most services name streets after famous historical events, etc. Makes sense.

Just seems that we were constantly going over history - What the "blood stripe" on the trousers was for, the quatrefoil on the covers, the name of the swords, etc. In the fogginess of my memory, I remember quizzing Marines during inspections, guard duty, meritorious boards, etc.

USMC history seems to have been present in just about everything we did.

Now about the USMC Birthday: Marines celebrate the birthday across the globe in every clime and place. Warzones, remote stations, aboard ship etc. It is a ceremony filled with historical reference.

Do the other services celebrate their birthdays as consistantly and universally? I have never heard other service members mention it.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I am not surprised that most services name streets after famous historical events, etc. Makes sense.

Just seems that we were constantly going over history - What the "blood stripe" on the trousers was for, the quatrefoil on the covers, the name of the swords, etc. In the fogginess of my memory, I remember quizzing Marines during inspections, guard duty, meritorious boards, etc.

USMC history seems to have been present in just about everything we did.

Now about the USMC Birthday: Marines celebrate the birthday across the globe in every clime and place. Warzones, remote stations, aboard ship etc. It is a ceremony filled with historical reference.

Do the other services celebrate their birthdays as consistantly and universally? I have never heard other service members mention it.

I don't think other services focus on it as much, no. Did we celebrate the Coast Guard's birthday on Aug. 4? Sure. Did we celebrate with 250 Cuban migrants on board that were angry and near revolt? No. I'm sure we found more pressing issues at the time.

I'm all for celebrating, and I thought it was fun to see my Marine classmates at the Defense Information School celebrating, but I'm not sure if that fact makes the Marine Corps a better suited organization. I'm not sure if "knowing our history" justifies our existance.

I would venture to guess there are many many organizations out there, with either longer histories, or just as effective existances that couldn't give two S&%$ what their history is.

Is a Coast Guard rescue swimmer any less effective if he doesn't know some blip in a history book from 200 years ago? No. Does he feel less connected with the "long blue line" before him? Maybe, but I'm not sure that really matters.

History is fun, but it's history. While it presents a baseline for all new rescruits to start from, their success if built in the here and the now, no matter what Chesty Puller did.

 

[DevilDog]

I don't think other services focus on it as much, no. Did we celebrate the Coast Guard's birthday on Aug. 4? Sure. Did we celebrate with 250 Cuban migrants on board that were angry and near revolt? No. I'm sure we found more pressing issues at the time.

I'm all for celebrating, and I thought it was fun to see my Marine classmates at the Defense Information School celebrating, but I'm not sure if that fact makes the Marine Corps a better suited organization. I'm not sure if "knowing our history" justifies our existance.

I would venture to guess there are many many organizations out there, with either longer histories, or just as effective existances that couldn't give two S&%$ what their history is.

Is a Coast Guard rescue swimmer any less effective if he doesn't know some blip in a history book from 200 years ago? No. Does he feel less connected with the "long blue line" before him? Maybe, but I'm not sure that really matters.

History is fun, but it's history. While it presents a baseline for all new rescruits to start from, their success if built in the here and the now, no matter what Chesty Puller did.

I think it is the common thread that links all generations of Marines. Every Marine knows where it was founded, woh the first Commandant was, where the first battle was fought, how many Navy Crosses Chesty Puller earned, etc. I could pull a recruit out of formation at Parris Island and ask him any of those questions and he would know the answer. It also instills a pride in our Corps.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I agree. Beyond that pride, operationally what does that knowledge do for them.


If I grabbed an FBI special agent and I said "You've done this and this and this.... but had you known the FBI's in-depth history you could have done....." What? What would that knowledge had added to the overall performance of that agent?

 

[DevilDog]

I agree. Beyond that pride, operationally what does that knowledge do for them.


If I grabbed an FBI special agent and I said "You've done this and this and this.... but had you known the FBI's in-depth history you could have done....." What? What would that knowledge had added to the overall performance of that agent?

It gives Marines others to look up to and exemplify. We all want to be like John Bassilone, Chesty Puller, Dan Daily, Smedley Butler, and the list goes on. The Marine Corps is definitely rich in tradition and it is important. If you don't see the value, many before you and after you do.

 

[LineInTheSand]

It gives Marines others to look up to and exemplify. We all want to be like John Bassilone, Chesty Puller, Dan Daily, Smedley Butler, and the list goes on. The Marine Corps is definitely rich in tradition and it is important. If you don't see the value, many before you and after you do.

I understand what you're getting it. I just doubt that makes them better killers, pilots or boat drivers.

I think it helps with retention, and likely morale (at least early). It probably helps with identity, but I think when the rubber hits the road, Bassilone, Puller Daily and Butler hit the road and it's about the guys they serve with; supporting and protecting them (and that is not unique to the Marine Corps, or even the military in general).

We're well off on the tanget. I appreciate a Marine's knowledge of his or her service, as he or she has been taught. I think it helps with organizational identity.

But, I don't think that that knowledge makes them any better at what they do than if they didn't have that knowledge anymore than my knowing what Douglas Munro (who you should know), Hell Roarin' Mike Healy or the crew of the Cutter Taney, helped me during my time in the Coast Guard.

 

[Boozebin]

Been following this thread for a bit now and didn't want to chime in because the Air Force doesn't have the long history as the other service but we were taught our history in basic. Not anything after basic but I didn't look to Hap Arnold as someone I wanted to be. I found someone much closer and in my chain of command. Col Hatcher my group commander at the time gave me my road map of how I wanted to be as a leader. To this day I would "take a bullet" for that man. We even work for the same DoD contracting company for a while and he tried to convince me to call him Tom and I refused to.

So to LITS' point, does it make a solider/sailor/airman more effective? I don't know but I personally found that in a great leader that made me want to follow him not someone that was put in charge of the Air Force in 1947.

Now you guys can start cracking the jokes telling the AF guy to hush up!

 

[USMCGrunt]

LITS: Feels like you think we are on opposite sides. We are not. My comments were only relative to perceived differences between the various services regarding the "in- bedding" of history and culture in their organizations.

I am quite certain that "knowing our history" does not justify any branch's existance.

I am also quite certain that success matters in the here and now in spite of any glorious historical record (ask any Notre Dame football fan).

But history does matter as does a knowledge of history. The USMC approach has proven to work in building esprit and a sense of belonging. Its part of our ethos.

You seem to feel this isn't important in mission accomplishment - I happen to think it is.

History, present day leadership, training, belief in a cause - these are all components of success. Some services and service members place higher value on these components; others place less.

 

[Boozebin]

History, present day leadership, training, belief in a cause - these are all components of success. Some services and service members place higher value on these components; others place less.

And to expand on this each individual has different weighting for each of those.

 

[Hurricane12]

Just seems that we were constantly going over history - What the "blood stripe" on the trousers was for, the quatrefoil on the covers, the name of the swords, etc. In the fogginess of my memory, I remember quizzing Marines during inspections, guard duty, meritorious boards, etc.

USMC history seems to have been present in just about everything we did.
.

Devil's advocate: most of those stories (the uniform related ones and the "teufelhunden" story in particular), while they sound cool, are just apocryphal.

 

[USMCGrunt]

OK Hurricane12. Fair enough.

But "history is written by the victors." All of history is contextual and therefore of questionable authenticity.

I am not questioning your point - you are right. But these stories live on despite historians expert debunking because the masses want to believe them; need to believe them.

In the end, these stories serve the purpose.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

Your grandfather is an incredible man, thank you for sharing that.

hear, hear!!

 

[bruno]

Here is some more information Scout:

http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/hot-topic.staff.ride.material.chipyong.ni.jipyeong.ri.480

The last I have heard the area has not changed much. There is a Veteran of the battle in my area. I met him during a fund raising event for a Korean War Memorial locally.

He attended the 60th anniversary event sponsored by the US Army there in 2011. He had multiple photos of the area and he said that it “hadn’t changed a bit.” He is a neat man to talk too. From what I can recall of our conversation, he really thought he was going to die there when they were told to dig in. However he said they had the time to prepare and they were ready. As a result of that preparedness, he said casualties in his company were rather light. However they expanded a great deal of ammunition and made it a bad day for a lot of “china men. “

That is about all I really know of the battle.

Scout - You have a heritage to be proud of. I can also tell you that there is a certain feeling you get when you walk a battlefield that your Grandfather fought on. It is rather indescribable. I can recall when I first arrived on Okinawa in 1977, 42 years after my Grandfather had fought there, how amazed I was to see the grounds he help take. There is a personal connection to it. At first, I wanted to explore every bit of the ground and I did. Knowing from our conversations, I knew where his unit was and I used to picture him being “right there.” After a while, it became very emotional. Especially after I met some Okinawans who had survived and listened to their stories about the carnage and bloodshed, it was then that I became very grateful that he was able to share his thoughts and how lucky I was to still have him.

TPG- that's a great link- thanks for finding that.
Scoutpilot- that is a tremendous heritage that you have with your Grandfather- he was a real warrior, one of those guys that you stand in awe of.

 

[bruno]

Geez... my brain is not functioning very well today.

I said it was 42 years after....well 1977 - 1945 is only 32 years!

On my way to get another cup of coffee now

TPG- if you really want to put the passage of time in perspective- consider that we are farther from 1977 than you were from the battle of Okinawa in 1977! WW2 was a whole different universe to the Bruno of 1977- but 1977 seems like just a short blip ago. Lord we are getting old!

If you have the connections- that phenomenon makes history not so ancient though- and things that in a book seem ancient can be connected to you fairly quickly. My grandfather went to see on a sailing ship carrying coal in the Baltic in 1920 (he was 13). The era of sailing ships seems like aeons ago- but my grandfather was an active part of my life. On the other side of the family- My great grandmother was born 2 years before the Franco-Prussian War, which again is an event form the history books- but I spent a lot of time at my great grandmothers house and I was almost 16 when she died. History and historical events don't seem so remote when you realize that there are only a few generations that separate us from some really huge events. Putting it into perspective: for you Marines since we talking about the USMC imbuing their people with a sense of history- Chesty Puller is not that far removed from you- he died in 1971 and his son in law- Col Bill Dabney just passed away-. The guys who were Cadets under him at VMI are just now making O6. Scoutpilot's granfather's actions are the kind of things that Soldiers should feel very close to in some ways because in the scheme of things- they were not all that long ago.