Update on disenrollment from NROTC

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Gojira, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Gojira

    Gojira Member

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    Lots of you have been there to listen and give advice over the last several months with regards to my son's disenrollment.

    We have appealed, gone through elected representatives and a lawyer. Lost primary appeals.

    The bill has now officially arrived from DFAS. They would like $4000 a month for three years.

    First payment due in one month.

    A word to those in ROTC on scholarship. Don't fall out of compliance. Ever. This could happen to you.

    Sorry to say, but applying for, and winning the ROTC scholarship was probably the worst path my kid could have taken. I wish that wasn't the case.
     
  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I am so sorry for what has happened to your son, and I wish him only the best.

    The one thing I would like to know is how in God's name do they expect a new college graduate to pay $4,000.00 per month over 3 years. I'm sure they would just say he needed to get an outside loan, but wouldn't they then just ask for the full amount up front.
     
  3. pointguard

    pointguard Member

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    Really, why?

    What did they do that was unexpected or not as advertised?
     
  4. Packer

    Packer Member

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    So sorry to hear this. That is a very heavy burden. There are not many jobs that I can think of that would allow a new graduate to handle that level of payments.
    Again, so sorry.
     
  5. Packer

    Packer Member

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    How the heck would he get an unsecured loan for that kind of money?
     
  6. ArielsMom

    ArielsMom Member

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    $4,000/Mo Payback - Warning to Others

    Gojira,

    Thank you again for sharing your painful experience with NROTC. (I've been checking back on this forum, waiting to hear your result. I'm sorry that you received no relief via the legal process.)

    As I told you in the Spring, you and Pima, prevented our family from making the same mistake with our daughter's AFROTC scholarship. She accepted her scholarship to the University that we could afford without the money. As it turned out, we found out five months after she accepted the scholarship that she would need to renounce her Canadian citizenship to contract. BTW, I saw the dual-citizenship issue on this forum and a forum moderator confirmed it. (Surprisingly, our DDs rep. at Maxwell AFB was not sure of the current regulation.) In the end, she turned down the AFROTC scholarship and took the one awarded by the University instead. If she had matriculated at one of her $50K/year options we would have been in a real bind.

    Also, I met a parent while visiting the Univ. of Waterloo in the Spring whose DS had been disenrolled from AFROTC right before commissioning too. His issue was also a trivial one (the mom thought they were looking for reasons to trim cadets). They have a lawyer and are trying to get the $100K+ that they owe trimmed. I suspect the outcome will be the same.

    Thank you again for sharing so others really think the possible outcomes through before they sign.
     
  7. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    In my opinion, which is only that, an opinion is this.

    The leadership at the NROTC unit could have been more on top of the situations of the Mids in their charge. They could have provided better counseling in regard to the weight minimums. Sure, they are posted for all to see, but to sit back and not make sure you have every Mid meeting those requirements long before the final date seems a bit lazy to me.

    I understand that each Mid needs to be responsible for their own issues, but to carry a Mid along for 4 years and then say...ooops, your 8lbs over weight seems like a breakdown in leadership.

    I'm not sure how the Navy works but in my son's AROTC battalion they check height and weight monthly, if there are any issues the Cadre and leadership works with the cadet to get to where they need to be and stay there.

    From the discussions and meetings my sons had with both NROTC and AROTC, it seems to me that this NROTC unit sure didn't do what was advertised to both my sons.
     
  8. Gojira

    Gojira Member

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    Three weeks before graduating and commissioning he was disenrolled for a being out of weight standards. He could have been put on a leave of absence, but was not.

    It is simply surprising that the unit would invest this time and energy to educate and train a midshipman only to wash them out so late in the game, and expect them to pay such an exorbitant sum over three years. Student loans are a heavy burden for most graduates, but this is exponentially bigger and to be paid back at a quicker rate.

    They can and did. It is a learning experience and a costly one for my son, and hopefully one for others.
     
  9. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Jcleppe: Thank you for your post. I agree with you.

    Maintaining personal standards is truly an individual's responsibility however, anytime someone in a leader's command fails it is the leader's failure also. No excuses, no exceptions. In my mind, it was a failure of the entire chain of command.

    Gojira, thank you for sharing your family's experience so others can benefit. You didn't have to do this, but you did. Future reader's have your experiences to learn from.
     
  10. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    As with the others, thank you for continuing to share the details of what is probably the most stressful experience you could have imagined your son starting his career with.

    What I can't figure out is why is the debt structured over 3 years, when it took 4 years for him to dig that hole? Not that $3K/mo for 4 years is much easier, but the logic here still escapes me...
     
  11. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    ROTC standards and rules are confusing and ever changing at best. Often counselings are not done and the extent of a cadet's peril is not fully known until discharge happens. With that being said I have seen guys repeatedly fail tape all the way up to commissioning and still get their bars. In the scholarship realm I have seen a nursing cadet fail to get into nursing school and the following year get handed a line scholarship that was probably destined for someone else because he/she's fafter was a high ranking officer. Nepotism at its finest.

    My rambling just echoes what Gojira said, cover your ***, be aware of the what ifs and try to be on top of everything even if your command isn't.
     
  12. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    I never realized that babysitting was part of their job description.
     
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    It is when they pin the bars on your shoulder.

    Tell that to the new 2ndLT when he gets his butt chewed out by his Captain because his platoon did not meet the APFT Goals.

    Tell that to the command (I should say former command) of an Iraqi prison when it comes out that the guards under thier command violated the rules.

    It's not babysitting, it's leadership, or in this case, a lack of it.

    Anyone in a leadership position that thinks they can just sit back and everyone under their command will follow every rule and meet every mission goal on their own, won't be in that leadership position for very long.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  14. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Babysitting? Yes.

    Mother, father, counsellor, confidant, disciplinarian, motivator, life coach, challenger, encourager, teacher, leader, and a host of other roles.

    Roll them all up under "Officer"
     
  15. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    I don't think that was the intent here. The Cadre is supposed to be on top of the "measurables" of the unit - how many commissions are expected, how are the cadets doing on their fitness, qualifications, medical, etc. They are also supposed to provide guidance to the senior unit leadership as to what needs to improve. I would expect that they knew about Gojira's son's weight long (years) before they chose to dis-enroll him. If there is a clear directive that they will have no overweight commissions that is communicated regularly and every year to the senior leadership when they see the first person exceeding standards, then there should be no surprise when these situations arise. It sounds like this is what was lacking in the cadre in this unit.

    This cadre did no ROTC units in ANY branch a favor by waiting until the bitter end to dis-enroll Gojira's son. Where some folks think that fear of arbitrary rules generates compliance, I find the uncertain environment that goes with fear (knowledge is the perfect antidote for fear) only generates disrespect for those who perpetuate the environment where fear exists. Nobody likes working for the boss who nitpicks rules seemingly randomly at inopportune times. Why should we expect otherwise from military leaders?
     
  16. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Great examples for leading young enlisted. Fourth year Officers (to be) are not in the same category.
     
  17. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Fourth year officers to be are just that, they are not even in the Military yet, unless they are at a SA in which I would imagine they have a much stricter policy for these things.

    These cadets are still under the charge of the senior NCO's and commissioned cadre until they graduate.

    Just curious what category these 4th year cadets would be in.
     
  18. hokiesfan

    hokiesfan Member

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    I'm so very sorry to hear the outcome of your son's appeal, Gojira. You have been very generous in sharing your son's situation with the board and I hope that anyone who takes a scholarship reads your posts before signing on the dotted line.

    Quite frankly, my son could easily have found himself in the very same position. Looking back, I wish I knew at the beginning of the application process what I know now. I wish my son had investigated his detachments more thoroughly, and I wish we had been more informed so we could have asked better questions before he started the program. Sheer dumb luck and our stumbling across this forum seems to have kept our son from ending up in the same situation as Gojira's. I'm grateful that he made it through, but it scares me to think how easily he might not have.
     
  19. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Don't denigrate ROTC too much in an attempt to prove your point. Fourth year cadets are charged with leadership of the underclassmen. How can they enforce standards when they cannot abide by them themselves?
     
  20. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I don't think we need to debate this aspect of the issue on this thread, especially as we will not change anyone's opinion.

    It seems to me the point to take away here is that there are potentially huge financial risks with being dropped or quitting the program. Further, its the service's choice as to whether you pay them back the dollars or enlist, not yours. In these times where the military has an excess of manpower and a shortage of dollars, they will always opt for the financial payback. So, go in with your eyes open and consider going to a school that is affordable without the scholarship instead of that dream, expensive, private school.

    Gojira, thanks for sharing your painful story so that others may benefit. I wish only good things for your son and your family and will keep you all in my prayers.
     

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