Update on disenrollment from NROTC

[Jcleppe]

After all these months of following gojira's predicament, I still have the same basic question:

why was I surprised about the magnitude of the payback obligation?

I think there are three reasons:

1) In ordinary college scholarships, when a student on scholarship fails to maintain the standards required (conduct, GPA), the scholarship is removed, but there is no obligation to pay back prior years of scholarship payment.

2) There was no discussion that I recall in the Scholarship Award letter that arrived to our house about the scholarship benefits needing to be repaid in full from Day 1 if the cadet were to be separated from ROTC in, say, year four.

3) The ROTC Scholarship Cadet Contract itself (perhaps there are other documents presented to a cadet upon signing the Contract) is not clear about the exact nature, the specifics, of the "obligation".

http://www.missouristate.edu/assets/milcsi/DA597_3_Scholarship_Cadet_Contract.pdf In 3 (c) is found what to me is a rather general phrase under Cadet Obligations. It says:

"I understand that I will incur an active duty and/or reimbursement obligation after the first day of my MSII year".

OK, that's fine, but where does it go on to explain that the cadet has no choice in whether the obligation is active duty or reimbursement? Where is reimbursement defined? If one is to assume that an ROTC scholarship is similar to other college scholarships, the reimbursement obligation would probably, likely, refer to scholarship dollars ONLY from the beginning of the Semester in which the student failed to meet the scholarship standards, not for all the prior years at that college when the student met the scholarship standards.

I hope that cadets are given supplementary materials to explain all the important aspects of the Form 597-3, and are clearly briefed on what "active duty and/or reimbursement obligation" means. Who goes over those details with the cadet when he/she arrives on campus, passes the APFT, and then signs the Scholarship Contract? Remember, these are by and large 18 or 19 year olds who have never signed an important contract in their lives, and may not be as cautious as their parents are to "read every word of the contract, and know what every word means". In this case, however, reading every word doesn't clearly paint the picture that the and/or isn't, and that reimbursement means all money received in arrears to day 1.

If find it interesting that in securing a home loan, there are about 75 pages of single space explanations that ensure that the borrower is clear about the obligations of repayment of the loan, and the rights of the lender if the repayments are not made. I find it interesting that these loans require, as I recall, at least 15 notazrized initials or signatures on key pages. Is there a similar procedure when a cadet takes out what is, at some schools, a $190,000 loan against future performance? Is the explanation clear and detailed when the cadet signs form 597-3?? I hope so, because neither parent nor cadet would expect such an "in-arrears" repayment obligation based solely upon the communications from Cadet Command to the Scholarship Awardee's home!

Whew! OK, I've vented. Now, move along folks, nothing to see here.

After reading your post I read over the contract you linked and my son's contract. It seems to state pretty clear in section 5e that it is their perogative to either require enlistment or repayment.

In section 5b it seems clear that the repayment is the amount from commencement of the contract to disenrollment.

Of course this is the AROTC Contract, I have no idea how it is worded for the Navy.

The whole issue with how the NROTC unit handled Gojira's son seems way off base, the late paperwork, the last minute signing of evals, and the apparent loss of the contract leaves a lot to be desired. I hope everyone thinking about or acceptin a scholarship reads these posts and understands how important it is to keep up with the paperwork.

I think the more the parents understand these issues the better, Many parents are accused of being Helo parents (I hate that word). In this case a little hovering is needed. the more parents understand this process the better we can advise our kids what to watch out for and what to stay on top of. This should have never happened.

Good luck Gojira, keep up the fight, and best of luck to your son.

 

[jiller59]

NROTC Scholarship Agreement

I re-read DS NROTC Scholarship Agreement which he submitted over the summer prior to starting the program - it does not mince words about the expections and ramifications:

"If I do not complete the NROTC Program, or if I complete the program but decline to accept a commission when offered, I may be ordered to active duty by the Secretary of the Navy to serve in an enlisted status for four (4) years or more, or for such lesser period as the Secretary may prescribe, or reimburse the government for any advanced educational assistance I received under this AGREEMENT. I understand this provision becomes binding on me upon entry into the second year of naval science, unless I entered the NROTC Program from active service. In this case, Title 10, United States Code, Section 516, governs my service obligation."

"REIMBURSEMENT REQUIREMENT FOR PROGRAM INCOMPLETION
a. As a condition of receiving advanced educational assistance hereunder, I further agree that:
(1) If I fail to complete the educational requirements identified in paragraphs 2c(1) and 2c(2), at the discretion of the Secretary of the Navy, I will either serve on active duty as specified in paragraph 2c(3), or reimburse the government for the educational costs expended on my behalf.
(2) If I fail to complete the active duty specified in paragraph 2c(3) due to misconduct or due to circumstances surrounding an administrative separation, I will reimburse the government for educational assistance provided to me in proportion to the amount of obligation service unserved.
b. I understand that I must remain qualified for military service as an officer during my participation in the NROTC Program. If I become ineligible for military service as an officer while participating in the NROTC Program and am disenrolled for any reason (including medical or physical disqualification, "matters of conscience," or any other reason), I may be required to reimburse the government for all educational assistance that I have received. I also understand that recoupment of educational funds is at the sole discretion of the Secretary of the Navy."

" OTHER TERMS AND CONDITIONS
a. I understand the Secretary of the Navy may release me from my obligation under this AGREEMENT and that I may be separated from the NROTC Program at any time if, in the opinion of the Secretary, the interests of the Navy would thereby be served."

 

[Packer]

b. I understand that I must remain qualified for military service as an officer during my participation in the NROTC Program. If I become ineligible for military service as an officer while participating in the NROTC Program and am disenrolled for any reason (including medical or physical disqualification, "matters of conscience," or any other reason), I may be required to reimburse the government for all educational assistance that I have received. I also understand that recoupment of educational funds is at the sole discretion of the Secretary of the Navy."

This part is bothersome. If one is in an accident that makes them non-commissionable they may get a bill.

 

[Jcleppe]

This part is bothersome. If one is in an accident that makes them non-commissionable they may get a bill.

Yep, that one seems a little scary. That's one I did not see in the AROTC contract.

 

[dunninla]

After reading your post I read over the contract you linked and my son's contract. It seems to state pretty clear in section 5e that it is their perogative to either require enlistment or repayment.

In section 5b it seems clear that the repayment is the amount from commencement of the contract to disenrollment.

Good point jcleppe, I stand corrected.

It seems then that the cadet, if they read carefully the entire contract rather than simply signing it on good faith, would be completely aware that if they aren't given the opportunity to serve enlisted for 4 years, they would then owe the government a ton of money.

Now, the only issue is whether the cadet, upon signing the Contract, sends a copy home to the parents, so the parents know what the risks are. I am certain that a great majority, let's say 75%+, don't understand that if Chris gets dropped from the Program in the Senior year, there could be a bill coming for as much as $180,000 in the case of a Private school. Even through the student is a legal adult, Ivery few are financially independent. What affects the student financially also affects the parents, most of whom, if my instincts are correct, have not carefully reviewed what their son/daughter signed.

 

[Gojira]

You should worry about this part, too:

a. I understand the Secretary of the Navy may release me from my obligation under this AGREEMENT and that I may be separated from the NROTC Program at any time if, in the opinion of the Secretary, the interests of the Navy would thereby be served."

They could have too many in the ROTC program on a national basis and cut you from program, even if within standards. Could they revoke a student's scholarship a multiple year scholarship if they realize they have too much manpower and not enough budget?

 

[nick4060]

They could have too many in the ROTC program on a national basis and cut you from program, even if within standards. Could they revoke a student's scholarship a multiple year scholarship if they realize they have too much manpower and not enough budget?

Yes. This has happened in AFROTC over the last few years. But the cadets were not forced to repay any $$$ since they were meeting standards

 

[dunninla]

^ gojira, I took that to mean they could separate a mid but that the mid wouldn't have any obligation of enlisted service or reimbursement. I understand this happens in AFROTC, where some cadets don't qualify for SFT, and are dropped from the program at the end of their sophomore year, even though they are within standard on all counts. I interpret your paragraph above in the same way... no money owed back, but no scholarship, book, or stipend money to help stay at the school going forward.

I a CERTAIN that AFROTC cadet parents have no clue at the time of Scholarship acceptance that there is a 10%, 20%, 30%, or even 40%+ chance, as was the case in Spring 2011, that their son/daughter will lose all those benefits at the end of their sophomore year at college. If, for example, an AFROTC scholarship Awardee also received an AROTC Award, or was Accepted to one of the Academies, that information would be useful in weighing the benefits vs. risks of going AFROTC vs. AROTC vs. Academy.

 

[Gojira]

Most of us with kids in college have advised them about their college choices based on cost and financial aid considerations.

It was quite the surprise to us when weeks after son started freshman year that the full sticker price of tuition was put in son's account. We had filled out FAFSA like most parents, and like most parents were trying to let adult son navigate the process like a young adult. I didn't think much of it. If we had seen that contract at the beginning, I know we would have gone through it and looked at the small print.

That should have been a red flag about the tuition billing, but it was never explained to us in any handbook, letter or memo that you could, theoretically be a zero or low EFC student who wouldn't have significant college expenses on a normal college track and get significant financial aid, but if you leave program by your choice or by the choice of your service branch, that they would bill you at full price.

There is that year long grace period where they don't bill you if you leave before second year. However, they are charging my kid for that first year, so that kind of doesn't make sense.

 

[Gojira]

That makes more sense, nick and dunning about not incurring a payback if within standards.

It definitely would be a shock if they lose scholarship and then have to figure out how to pay next year's tuition!

 

[Jcleppe]

Good point jcleppe, I stand corrected.

It seems then that the cadet, if they read carefully the entire contract rather than simply signing it on good faith, would be completely aware that if they aren't given the opportunity to serve enlisted for 4 years, they would then owe the government a ton of money.

Now, the only issue is whether the cadet, upon signing the Contract, sends a copy home to the parents, so the parents know what the risks are. I am certain that a great majority, let's say 75%+, don't understand that if Chris gets dropped from the Program in the Senior year, there could be a bill coming for as much as $180,000 in the case of a Private school. Even through the student is a legal adult, Ivery few are financially independent. What affects the student financially also affects the parents, most of whom, if my instincts are correct, have not carefully reviewed what their son/daughter signed.

I guess we a were lucky, the battalion both my son's went to sent us a boiler plate copy of the contract to review for both sons before they arrived at school. I was not at the school when my older son signed his contract, at that time they gave him a copy to take and read over and advised him to have his parents counsel him before signing. My son called and we went over it together before he signed the document.

I happened to be at school when my younger son signed his contract. The HRA that was providing him with all the paperwork asked that I come in the office since I was there and look it over with my son before he signed.

I know these kids are adults and it seems to be a trend on these forums that we let them do this on there own, some even refer to it as being "Locked Out" by the cadre. My view is that when an adult is given a contract to sign they are often advised to have an attorny review the documents before signing. It is no different in my mind then having a parent of a new 18 year old review this contract before it is signed.

I'm not sure if other battalions or units operate this way, we are thankful our son's did. It is clear that Gojira's unit did not.

I would be the first to advise every parent review the contract prior to signing, the battalion or unit should have no issue with this, I would be skeptical if they did, if nothing else, find a copy online and review every word.

 

[dunninla]

It was quite the surprise to us when weeks after son started freshman year that the full sticker price of tuition was put in son's account. We had filled out FAFSA like most parents, and like most parents were trying to let adult son navigate the process like a young adult.
.

Oh man, I see what you mean!

Take for example a Private University that would look like this:

Cost of Attendance: $58,000 (Tuition $42k, R&B $12.5k, misc. $3.5k)
EFC (From FAFSA): $21,000
Financial Aid award (without Work Study or Loans) $29,000
Work Study + Loan $8,000 (declined both)
Remaining Owed by Family: $29,000 per year vs. the $58,000 full price.

But, because the student accepts an AROTC 4 Yr. or NROTC 4 Yr. scholarship, the $29,000 Financial Aid award disappears.

So, instead of the NROTC mid who is disenrolled owing the Private University 7 semesters of $14,500 in reimbursement ($29,000 owed by family after FA Award/2 semesters), it is 7 semesters at $21,000 full tuition reimbursement ($42,000 tuition/2).

gojira -- is it possible to go back to the University Financial Aid office to ask if you might accept their Financial Aid offer from 2007, and for the University to return to the Navy the difference between what the Navy paid, and what you would have paid under their Financial Aid award? That would knock off twenty or more thousand from what gojira's son owed back to the Navy. Of course at this late date the University has already collected and banked FULL tuition, so it would be a tough sell. But it is worth a try.

 

[Hewson]

Was your son given repayment options? We are in a similar situation with my son voluntarily disenrolling and owing the gov't 96000. He was on an Army ROTC scholarship and about to finish his 3 rd year. He waived his right to a board. PMS is recommending repayment in lieu of service.

I am in a panic. He has no means at this point to repay. He plans on finishing his degree which will mean more loans.

Any advice would be helpful.

 

[Pima]

I am assuming you are asking Gojiira. Gojira very rarely posts here anymore.

I know her on another site and that is how she found her way over here in the beginning.

Last I knew which was about 6 months ago. Her DS was handed the 143K bill spread over 10 yrs. I believe he has to repay with interest. Their situation is different than yours because he was 6 weeks from graduation and they hired an attorney to fight it, thus, by the time it was settled he was graduated already. I won't swear by it, but if I recall he was given a 6 month grace period from graduation to start the repayment; sim. to a college loan.

I know with our DS's friend who opted out fall of his 300 yr (MSIII equiv) for AFROTC voluntarily was offered the option to enlist or payback. He took the payback and they wanted the money right than in FULL. For him it was 40K, and they immediately took out student loans to pay it.

The point is I think you can't apply broad brush strokes. It is not only the branch, but it may also be the cadet. Our DS's friend was computers and had already interned as NASA Goddard for 2 yrs. His skill set and experience was worth them offering the option.

Has your DS asked his PMS if that means ante up now? It could be he will be like Gojira's DS. 6 months after and for the next 10 yrs. 10 yrs at 96K is hard to pay, but it is better than 5 yrs at 96K.

Sorry to hear about this happening, but in the end, if he didn't want to serve, and loves his college, it is better to call it a day now, and not 1 more yr from now, when it would be 130K.

It is something many posters that have been here for a long time advise scholarship recipients when choosing that high end college.

I am sure he will find a great job, and look back at this as the biggest lesson he ever learned in life.

 

[Jcleppe]

Was your son given repayment options? We are in a similar situation with my son voluntarily disenrolling and owing the gov't 96000. He was on an Army ROTC scholarship and about to finish his 3 rd year. He waived his right to a board. PMS is recommending repayment in lieu of service.

I am in a panic. He has no means at this point to repay. He plans on finishing his degree which will mean more loans.

Any advice would be helpful.

DFAS will most likely come up with a payment plan, the issue will be whether they will defer the payments until he finishes his degree. If your son has no means to make the payments the issue will be handed over to the IRS which will attach future wages and refunds. Interest will accrue, and repayment will become more difficult. Getting a private loan on his own will be nearly impossible. It may be wise to look into a re-finance on your part to allow him to set up a payment plan with you that will be something he can handle. Your son will not want to let this compound, it will only get worse.

Is there absolutely no chance of a review and re-instatement, and has enlistment been taken off the table for good.

The last person, the OP of this thread, was given a payment period of 3 years, your son will probably have something close to that. The payments will be steep with a 3 year payback, around $2600.00 per month. You will know more when DFAS sends you the final paperwork.

 

[Pima]

Jcleppe,

Unless something has changed for Gojira, last I knew back this early fall was they allowed him to pay it back over 10 yrs., not 3 yrs.

Still, as you stated interest is accruing, and a 143K loan is a hefty debt as a 22 yr old, especially in this job market.

He is still looking at @1300 a month.

Hewson,

JMPO, but I would search for a financial adviser. Not one that will sell him Whole Life Insurance or a ROTH IRA, but someone that can direct him on how this will impact his credit rating.

My guess is they will defer the repayment to 6 months after graduation like FAFSA student loans. Maybe it will be 3, 5 or 10 yrs. repayment schedule. The point is from a credit score perspective he will have the 96K (AROTC) and the 32K+ student loan for his sr. yr.

That is a lot of debt, and now the question becomes getting a car loan, an apt, etc.

There are rule of thumb numbers in the credit world. I.E. as a Realtor it is 34% gross, 28-31% net for the home.

Financial advisers, tax attorneys, etc. can help him navigate this path.

If his birthday is coming up, give it as a gift. He will probably resent you now for doing it, instead of that new Xbox game, but in 15 months from now when he wants to buy a car, he will appreciate the gift.

Best thoughts, hopes, and wishes.

As much as your world is upside down, it is for the best, and you will see that in a yr or two when this debt means nothing and he loves the career he has.

 

[Hewson]

Thank you for the advice.

Yes world turned upside down to say the least. Getting a financial advisor may be the way to go.

Calling lawyer and seeing if we can meet with PMS. I spoke with him on phone and he said there was no options at this point. Paperwork was signed and submitted. Our son did not tell us or a week.

Tough lesson to be sure. Do you let him fail or do you help him out? We have another in college and one entering private high school.

In this economy, there is no guarantee that he will get a job upon graduation. And if he does, what kind of earning potential will he have? His degree is in exercise science

Thanks again

 

[goaliedad]

Thank you for the advice.

Yes world turned upside down to say the least. Getting a financial advisor may be the way to go.

Calling lawyer and seeing if we can meet with PMS. I spoke with him on phone and he said there was no options at this point. Paperwork was signed and submitted. Our son did not tell us or a week.

Tough lesson to be sure. Do you let him fail or do you help him out? We have another in college and one entering private high school.

In this economy, there is no guarantee that he will get a job upon graduation. And if he does, what kind of earning potential will he have? His degree is in exercise science

Thanks again

Difficult question. My thoughts...

ROTC is about teaching responsibility for ones actions. Ultimately, he needs to take charge of what is to become of his life going forward. I don't think it is your place to "offer" financial help in digging out of the hole that he made.

If he does approach you about money AND you have the financial whereabouts and willingness to contribute, it should be in payments based upon YOUR approval of how he is managing HIS life. He obviously messed up pretty badly and showed poor judgement in hiding it from you until the paperwork was completed. You are owed a lot more accountability for YOUR money than he gave the military for their money, given this track record.

Yes, with his degree he will struggle to make the minimum payments. He will be dejected. You need to make him take pride in doing as much as he can about fixing the mess HE got himself into. This is the only way he will learn the lessons he (and possibly you) are paying for. Doing right by your commitments. That is the lesson he needs to learn to move forward with his life during and after the payments are done.

My condolences on your situation. It will just a little more time (and money) to help this one finally grow up.

 

[Hewson]

Thanks goalie dad. I remember your posts when we were awaiting the scholarship decision in 2010.

We are in total agreement that he is accountable or his actions and responsible going further. I know he does not understand the magnitude of the intuition he is in, but we certainly do. He says he accepts responsibility and plans on paying the money back. But the numbers just do not add up. It will be a very difficult almost impossible hole to dig out of for a recent grad.

Thanks gain.

 

[Pima]

Please understand your DS is over the age of 18. He is legally an adult. The PMS is right, your DS signed the paperwork. Honestly, I would not obtain an attorney. I think it is a waste of money. DS is at least 20. he signed the paperwork, he was advised of the risks, and he opted out.

Sorry, if that hurts, but attorneys that specialize in the military code are not a dime a dozen, they are specialty. I am betting they sill say the same thing. DS left on his free will...rang the bell. He knew for at least 2 yrs the penalties of ringing the bell.

Hard to create a defense. Gojira's DS had a case, he was 8 lbs overweight when the dis-enrolled him 6 weeks before commissioning. He could have done the South Beach diet, lived at the gym and dropped 10 lbs in a month. He didn't ask to leave. Your DS asked to leave, and unfortunately for you he didn't tell you.

Two different worlds...I am not trying to be mean, I am saying they had a defense that an attorney could fight, he didn't ask to leave, Your DS dud abd is not fighting the disenrollment.

JMPO, but you are better off spending that money contacting a financial adviser and asking how he will get over this debt as a 22 yr old.

When it comes to the question do you let him fail?

Yes and no.

Give him a roof with a specific time frame to leave...18/24/30 months after graduation.

If I read your post correctly he made the decision to quit AROTC without talking to you. If that is so,his actions were those of an adult, and he must pay the price as an adult. This is his debt now. You have 2 more kids, is it fair to them that because their sibling did this they pay the price to dig him out of debt?

Exercise Science, I don't know the earnings or employment opportunities. Maybe you are near a big time college like UCLA or major league sports.

My heart goes out to you. This is not an easy decision as a parent. You have 3 children, and you love them all equally, but I think you are like most of us, limited resources...which child pays the price?