Upper Classmen

Luigi: I may rise to your bait on this one, if you start a separate thread on it - we could argue we've already strayed from the original intent/subject of this this question or thread going to the "how would you teach effective leadership.." question ail be it arguable.

That said how do you think the USCGA Forum regular posters would react to me posting a similar question on their forum: "Why not close the USCGA and fund a Criminal Science Major at USNA and add 900 billets there to supply the needs of the USCG with ~300 Service Academy Trained O-1's a year? After all wouldn't that be the easiest way to address issues raised by Congress such as Chairman Cummings' desire to require Congressional Nominations, etc? - Discuss"

I'm not afraid to discuss the positives and negatives of such a proposal. That being said, unless the USCG, which is a military service, a branch of the armed forces, was formally merged into the Dept of the Navy ala the USMC, it probably wouldn't work. However, eliminating the USCGA and adding 250 USCG slots per year at USNA (ala USMC slots) IMHO would work if the USCG was a part of the USN.

However, Kings Point is quite different as the Merchant Marine is not a military service nor is the USMMA a military academy.

It seems that much of the argument in this thread revolves around the regimental aspects of a maritime education. You stress the latter in all of your posts as THE most important aspect, while (correctly IMHO) castigating the military aspects of KP training as an intrusion on the necessary training important to a KP graduate who is going to sea in the US merchant fleet.

My "Devil's Advocate" proposal is not an original one of my own, in fact, I have heard it more and more from others who question the need for the USMMA today, arguing that the State Maritime academies are producing essentially the same "product" and the students are paying for it themselves. Funding an "ROTC-like" program at those academies, maintaining the same KP graduation standards, may address some of your misgivings about the need for regimented military system in the KP maritime training requirements.
 
Hmmm...didn't know USCG was a "Military Service":cool:. I thought USCG fell under the Department of Homeland Security which actually makes it a Federal Public Safety type organization. So...now...with that being said, let's do away with the USCG Academy and send KP grads to FLETC to learn the Public Safety side of things. I mean, at least our grads have the proper paperwork to run and operate the ships directly out of college where USCGA grads have another year before they get licensed. Oh...and I see FLETC already offers the courses! There you go….:eek:

Luigi59...just messing with you man. My brother-in-law did 20 and retired a Master Cheif on C-130's. I appreciate the mission of the Coast Guard!:shake:
 
STOP! I wise man once told me to never questions a man's desire to serve his country. This is vering in that direction. Service is service. These academies and other programs are in place to seperate the wheat from the chaff. We are counting on them to produce leaders that can guide us in the direction of national prosperity.
 
Okay Luigi - I've got no problem participating in such a discussion on a separate thread. Further I think you are being obtuse re: your own Alma Mater and Service - the USCG has 7 Missions only one of which is tied to National Defense. In peacetime as far as I know they have NEVER been under the DoD - they are only transferred to the DoD in times of war.

Ironic isn't it that the only Federal Service Academy with a Battle Standard is USMMA and the service with the highest mortality rates during the Vietnam Era was the USCG - neither of which are solely or arguably primarily "military" services. That said at least USMMA grads, except those who transfer to the USCG and serve out their active duty there are eligible to join the Navy Federal Credit Union even after graduation:thumbdown:

In the meantime my personal vote is we keep this thread on only two of the subjects it's been covering/addressing:

1) Answering and discussing the original subject directly: What can and can't upper classmen do in the enforcement of Class Rates over P/Cs at USMMA. As well as the related point/question what and how would a P/C go about raising an issue if they feel they have been improperly disciplined/corrected by an upper classman or if they have been "hazed"

2) On the related point of what and how people might feel/or believe "effective leadership principles" be taught at the USMMA either as part and parcel to the Regimental System of otherwise.

I believe if we add this third topic to mix the thread will be quite messy.... further since it's not clearly related to the original point/posted topic - doesn't adding it violate the protocols of the forum?
 
Offtopic, and these may not be related, but hands down the BEST leaders I had my plebe year had extensive time spent at the waterfront on various teams or clubs. Maybe it has something to do with the experience of being responsible for a million dollar race boat and 20 peers under your command that teaches you EFFECTIVE leadership without 'smoke sesssions' and screaming.

My CTO was a hard-core hoorah marine corp type and held a leadership postion in the Marine Ops program. He never cursed, screamed, or ITed us except for one or two morning PT sessions and his leadership style was very effective and professional. However, I would say he was in the .002% and definitly not the norm around here.
 
Wake,

I think it might have more to do with the personality type of the person who is drawn to the waterfront and what is generally felt as "good" leadership amongst the regiment.

Generally those who are drawn to the waterfront are considered to be fairly laid back. This transcends into their leadership style as someone with that type of personality is much less likely to "lead by screaming" than your "super Type A" personality that is much more likely to be found in Marine Ops or similar programs. Yes, I realize marine ops and waterfront are not mutually exclusive, but these are broad generalizations.

You will find the same amongst those who play intercollegiate athletics. I don't ever remember having someone that was an athlete who was one of the "yellers." (Wait I take that back, one of my platoon commanders plebe year was a bit rough).

These are broad generalizations, I know, but I think the leadership style exhibited by 1st classmen within the regiment has much less to do with if they played a sport or were waterfront and much more to do with their personality. Sure some might change a bit, but you can pretty much tell by Christmas of plebe year who in your class is going to be which type.
 
Sure some might change a bit, but you can pretty much tell by Christmas of plebe year who in your class is going to be which type.

Wakefreak/KP2001:

Interesting points/thoughts. As you probably know in my case it's been a long, long time since I was a midshipmen, that said I'm pretty sure I can think back and remember the "leadership styles" of the those Midshipmen Officers in the Class of '79 when I was a Plebe and my own classmates when I a Firstclassman in the Class of 1982. I don't recall ANY members of the Class of 1979 in my chain of command who as Midshipmen Officers were "yellers" after Indoctrination. As far as the Class of 1982, I can only think on one guy in our class who as a Midshipmen Officer "yelled/screamed" at anybody more than once after Indoc. He was a BX, that said I'm pretty confident that his loud efforts, etc did NOT include profanity and I am absolutely sure they did NOT include repeated profane statements. Back in that era, as I recall, by the time we returned to campus for First Class Year, we just didn't feel that such behavior was what a leader did, in fact we all pretty much felt that if you thought you needed to do that to lead you probably weren't a very good leader at all...

Also even during INDOC in those days the only time you heard a first classman yell was the RTO (Regimental Training Officer) on Barney Square when he was teaching us all Close Order Drill, etc. Even the Upper Class "pushers" - that's what we called the DI's back then didn't spend all their time yelling at us, except of course during the evening "plebe beats" when they'd line us up the barracks and grill us on our Plebe Knowledge, etc. while we had to "brace" against the walls.... However, after indoctrination that ended... It was a rare, rare First Classman and/or even Second Classman who enjoyed acting that way or felt it was how to learn/practice leadrship.... Of course it was a long time ago and maybe I'm just not remembering things all that clearly....
 
Jasper,

agree with you. I can only recall a few at most in my class that acted this way beyond Indoc. I vividly recall the RTOA my plebe year being one of these types. (He got in a bit of trouble for some of his antics a bit later) and one of my DI's was released from his duties for similar actions.

I think these types of individuals are few and far between. Seems so far I've only heard of one in the current 1st class who apparently is being dealt with.

I should have used a better choice of words because "yellers" probably doesn't reflect well what I was thinking....I think you can tell by christmas of plebe year who the "tools" are going to be. (An endearing term for those who have nothing better to do than stick their own classmates or take the regiment a bit too serious). These tend to be non-athlete, non-waterfront types in my opinion.
 
Off topic here: who are the CO's and CTO's? Not students? My DS keeps referring to them as adults and different pay grades.
 
Off topic here: who are the CO's and CTO's? Not students? My DS keeps referring to them as adults and different pay grades.

COs (Company Officers) are commissioned officers, usually USMS, who are in charge of running the companies. some micromanage (ahem), some are almost entirely hands-off. they are not students, but work closely with the midshipman officers in the big picture (or, again, in some cases the detailed, everyday) management of the company.

CTOs (Company Training Officers) are 1/c midshipmen LTjgs who are in charge of the training and disciplinarian aspects of each company. they are the ones that the P/Cs will learn to love or hate:biggrin: almost everything that has to do with the regiment as it relates to plebes comes down through the RTO (Regimental Training Officer) to the CTOs, until recognition. after that, regimental affairs come down from the CCs (Company Commanders, 1/c M/N LTs), the same as for the rest of the midshipmen in the company.
 
Do they keep the same CTO through out their Plebe year? Or does this change with trimesters?
 
As a side note

One thing worth mentioning. All companies have a CAO (Company Academic Officer) and there is also a RAO (Regimental Academic Officer). I mention this only because some plebes are not aware of this position [for whatever reason] and this is probably someone that 75% should get to know in their company.

The CAO is the one who will monitor the academic status of a Plebe. Parents, if your plebe is struggling with any class, please make sure they know to go to their CAO. :thumb:
 
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