US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23

Pima said:
I have to ask, do you really see this as hazing?

Did your kids never have a snowball fight?

Do I think they may need to tone it back? Yes, but I don't see it as hazing.

Sorry, but IMPO if this is too much and you want to fly, especially fighters, I suggest you don't partake in the tradition because IMPO the instructors will eat you alive as their daily snack during UPT, FTU and as the FNG for your 1st operational tour.

Do the math. For every 100 UPT students, 70 will wing, and 5-10% will get fighters...basically @5 out of the original 100 pool.

This is a way to grow a thick skin.
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Comparing this event to UPT and FTU makes no sense, completely non related. Lets be honest you need to be mentally and physically ready for UPT and FTU as compared to a snowball fight that has fallen into a brawl that requires no mental or physical challenges.
 
Okay Polaris,

Let me get this right.

Snowball fight bad! Taxpayer issue.

CRUD okay.

Did you not place into that equation the AF has now spent millions just to train each and every rated officer. Not even talking the pilot that accepted a bonus. SA is what 400K?

Are you also for killing the tradition of Crud? If not, why not?

No offense, but enough with Chesty...this is the AF, not the Marines. Sorry if I offended you, but I had to say it. The Marines have their traditions, and the AF doesn't bring up Doolittle or Robin Olds as a guidance for how the Marines should act.
 
Pima said:
Okay Polaris,

Let me get this right.

Snowball fight bad! Taxpayer issue.

CRUD okay.

Did you not place into that equation the AF has now spent millions just to train each and every rated officer. Not even talking the pilot that accepted a bonus. SA is what 400K?

Are you also for killing the tradition of Crud? If not, why not?

No offense, but enough with Chesty...this is the AF, not the Marines. Sorry if I offended you, but I had to say it. The Marines have their traditions, and the AF doesn't bring up Doolittle or Robin Olds as a guidance for how the Marines should act.
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CRUD is a ridiculous game however it has yet to produce 2 dozen injuries. Again there were 27 injuries involved at the AFA, 27 preventable injuries that shouldn't happen.
Now if you go back to the bubble wrap comment I will remind you the DOD and AF have tons of regulations on lifestyle.

Finally my comments about LTGEN Puller were intend to prove a point to another poster.
 
Polaris,

Let's call a spade for a spade.

You believe the tradition should be abolished and nothing I say will change your position.

I believe that the tradition should remain and nothing you say will change my opinion.

Have a great day!
 
Pima said:
Polaris,

Let's call a spade for a spade.

You believe the tradition should be abolished and nothing I say will change your position.

I believe that the tradition should remain and nothing you say will change my opinion.

Have a great day!
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That's where you are wrong and you need to read my posts! I said it's a fine tradition as long as it does not turn into a free for all brawl that causes a couple of dozen injuries.
 
Polaris said:
Second so you'd have no problem with a 4th class popping your son in the jaw and breaking it causing a set back due to this tradition?
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Methinks you misunderstand how the term "Hall Brawl" is applied at USAFA.
 
Polaris said:
Pima

You miss the point, by the way it wasnt a snowball fight that caused the injuries. However as a taxpayer where these injuries happen I find in unacceptable. Also to say that there will never be an injury due to this is naive, if it continues to get out of control it is possible to have happen. Again it's a fine tradition as long as it does not get out of hand. With regard to CRUD yeah grab Assiniboin around a pool table is real violent!
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It was obvious that it got a little out of hand. They need to dial it back a little. That's all.

It's been said that peoples strengths are also their weaknesses. I'm a firm believer in this statement. Highly competitive athletic people (who also like to compete academically) AND who sign up for an academy are going to error on overdoing it.

Re: the above "I'm a taxpayer statement". That cliche is overused. The brawl might have cost you a fraction of a penny. A broken leg in a academy football game also cost you a fraction of a penny.
 
Polaris said:
That's where you are wrong and you need to read my posts! I said it's a fine tradition as long as it does not turn into a free for all brawl that causes a couple of dozen injuries.
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If it was a free for all, there would have been 500 injuries. Over 4000 students participated. If you don't want to get hurt, just let the 2016 students place you in the snow. Problem solved!:biggrin:

I was impressed with one of the more creating upperclassman. He put vaseline gel all over his body. He was a bugger to catch!
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
It was obvious that it got a little out of hand. They need to dial it back a little. That's all.

It's been said that peoples strengths are also their weaknesses. I'm a firm believer in this statement. Highly competitive athletic people (who also like to compete academically) AND who sign up for an academy are going to error on overdoing it.

Re: the above "I'm a taxpayer statement". That cliche is overused. The brawl might have cost you a fraction of a penny. A broken leg in a academy football game also cost you a fraction of a penny.
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Taxpayer state a cliche? Hardly, especially since a 4 year education costs $400k.

By the way the over doing comment is an excuse for poor and unprofessional behavior. They are taught to be leaders and officers and as such know what is right and wrong.
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
My son played hockey till his senior year. He got 2 broken collar bones and broken arm (compound fracture) and countless close calls including a skate blade cutting his neck. He went back on the ice after he healed. He got a concussion snowboarding with a helmet as he likes to bomb the hill and yet he joined the snowboard club. He broke his arm in football and he broke his toe on the diving board doing flips. Now he is trying out for the USAFA boxing team and I expect he will be bloodied up and probably a pending broken nose.

To answer your earlier question, if my DS got hurt he would be participate in this tradition the following year.:thumb: Should he lock himself in the room next year so he doesn't get hurt?
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For LITS:

Nearly broke my back after a check from behind into the board my freshman year at CGA. -Hockey

Sustained a concussion at a "fight club" like thing we did during summer school at CGA. -Boxing

Sustained a lebral (or is it labrel?) tear in my shoulder playing hockey while stationed at my first unit. Hard surgery to repair 3 years later. -Hockey

Broke a rib last year. -Hockey


Maybe half the fun is knowing if you don't keep your head up and don't pay attention, you could get hurt.


It's not apples to oranges, because I can promise you more people die playing hockey or football than throwing upperclassmen into the snow (although, no biting in hockey).
 
LineInTheSand said:
For LITS:

Nearly broke my back after a check from behind into the board my freshman year at CGA. -Hockey

Sustained a concussion at a "fight club" like thing we did during summer school at CGA. -Boxing

Sustained a lebral (or is it labrel?) tear in my shoulder playing hockey while stationed at my first unit. Hard surgery to repair 3 years later. -Hockey

Broke a rib last year. -Hockey


Maybe half the fun is knowing if you don't keep your head up and don't pay attention, you could get hurt.


It's not apples to oranges, because I can promise you more people die playing hockey or football than throwing upperclassmen into the snow (although, no biting in hockey).
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It is apples to oranges because one is sanctioned by the academy and the other isn't. One is part of the professional development of officers the other isn't.
 
xposted with you

Polaris said:
CRUD is a ridiculous game however it has yet to produce 2 dozen injuries.
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Yes you are right they have yet to produce 2 dozen injuries because AD fliers have it pounded in their craniums to suck it up and not visit the doc. Come Sunday the players have bruises on their hips. thighs and even their ribs. They suck it in! Flight Doc is not their friend as far as they are concerned.

Bullet broke his little toe multiple times, and re-set it himself because he would be damned if he would be DNIF for a broken toe! Same with the flu, sinus issues, etc. His philosophy was Aspirin.

Finally, a typical Crud game is 6-8 people. How many AFA cadets were in this snowball fight? You wouldn't get 24 injured because the fact is maybe 50 play the entire night, which could be 6 hrs+ (6 pm to midnight). Was it 50% of the cadets injured?
 
Polaris said:
It is apples to oranges because one is sanctioned by the academy and the other isn't. One is part of the professional development of officers the other isn't.
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I'm guessing there are a lot of sanctioned events that you don't know about.


On a side note, as a cadet, they let us shoot REAL bullets! AHHHH! I know, I know, we should have practiced on Duck Hunt on old Nintendo, but they were intent on not babying us, so somehow, we were allowed to shoot real bullets with real pistols. CRAZY!
 
Pima said:
xposted with you


Yes you are right they have yet to produce 2 dozen injuries because AD fliers have it pounded in their craniums to suck it up and not visit the doc. Come Sunday the players have bruises on their hips. thighs and even their ribs. They suck it in! Flight Doc is not their friend as far as they are concerned.

Bullet broke his little toe multiple times, and re-set it himself because he would be damned if he would be DNIF for a broken toe! Same with the flu, sinus issues, etc. His philosophy was Aspirin.

Finally, a typical Crud game is 6-8 people. How many AFA cadets were in this snowball fight? You wouldn't get 24 injured because the fact is maybe 50 play the entire night, which could be 6 hrs+ (6 pm to midnight). Was it 50% of the cadets injured?
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You know what cadets shouldn't be doing jail house medicine, they are government property and as such know that they should see the doc.
Second the tradition is fine as long as it doesn't get out of hand which it obviously did. Finally we are training officers and leaders and the tradtion falling into something were people get hurt like this isn't appropriate to their training.
 
Polaris said:
You know what cadets shouldn't be doing jail house medicine, they are government property and as such know that they should see the doc.
Second the tradition is fine as long as it doesn't get out of hand which it obviously did. Finally we are training officers and leaders and the tradtion falling into something were people get hurt like this isn't appropriate to their training.
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Uh oh, the reality of post Academy life would REALLY shock you then.

And yet somehow, over hundreds of years (at other academies, which all have similar physical traditions), great officers have been produced... some with far less delicate traditions.
 
Polaris said:
Finally we are training officers and leaders and the tradtion falling into something were people get hurt like this isn't appropriate to their training.
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Sorry, but I have to ask... are you an Academy (any of the 5) graduate?
 
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LineInTheSand said:
I'm guessing there are a lot of sanctioned events that you don't know about.


On a side note, as a cadet, they let us shoot REAL bullets! AHHHH! I know, I know, we should have practiced on Duck Hunt on old Nintendo, but they were intent on not babying us, so somehow, we were allowed to shoot real bullets with real pistols. CRAZY!
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I know about a lot of non sanctioned events more than you would know, I also know what it's like to have 14 years of commissioned service.

I will say this I've know a lot of WPers who played football and due to injuries were only able to branch CSS. With that being said most ended up need surgery after surgey, ending up in some desk job because they couldn't do anything else and finally getting medically retired.

Yeah that's a great way to spend an army career let alone the cost and expense to train, educate and finally take care of an individual.
 
Polaris said:
I know about a lot of non sanctioned events more than you would know, I also know what it's like to have 14 years of commissioned service.
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And where did that commission come from? And which service. That might be telling.

After 14 years, why not stick it out to 20?
 
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