US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23

[dtkdarnoc]

A Basic Cadet did that to himself on purpose the summer I worked BCT... his parents wouldn't let him come home if he just quit, but would still accept him if he was "injured" and medically turned back. Kid slammed his head on the wall/floor until he got a concussion and walked around with a huge grin on his face until the day he outprocessed.

Oh memories...

But they seriously banned situps in the hall?

That's what I was told by a BCT1 flight commander within the last month. Probably need to put padding and safety rails under the pullup bars in the stairwells just in case someone might twist an ankle and fall down the stairs.

but, somehow, they will survive - this may be another thing that goes in the "back when it was hard" pile after they graduate.

 

[Texasrocks]

Is this the same commandant that banned situps in the hall because a kid banged his head on the wall and got a concussion?

The cadets have little confidence that there is a way he will regulate the tradition to something that has any meaning to them at all.

Skiing, WWRafting should certainly be banned, and I believe they lost a grad 2 years ago during his 60 days that had his license and was flying on his own in Texas. The air force should certainly ban flying, it's just too darned dangerous!

....and what about BCT - many injuries there... and what about the mental abuse and yelling, isn't that considered "bullying" today.

Shut it all down; the application process was hard enough.

 

[buffalo]

Getting rid of traditions is the only tradition left.

There are some (actually a cadet is currently leading this charge) who want to make a Fire in the Hole a Cat IV...

USAFA is where traditions go to die.

 

[Boozebin]

Hey guys just a bit of advice the thread is getting a bit contentious eyes closely watching this thread you could almost feel the moderators fingers itching to type something and shutting down this thread. Just my two cents!

Polaris I see this as a pick and chose battle, this one is not worth trowing yourself on the grenade for. You're also not helping your cause by mentioning all the injuries/cost from football players post the academy and not asking for the stoppage of that as well.

And I'll close with this… as with anything like this it always ends up escalating to bigger and bigger things. The good thing is that these young men and women are taught recognize and readjust depending on the situation as good leaders. I trust the cadets to SELF (adjust with some direction); and if I don't trust them to do that why the hell should I trust them with the lives of the people they are assigned to lead. So in short yes this activity does teach them how to be good leaders.

You can now donate the 2 cents you all owe me to AFA!
Will

 

[USMCGrunt]

Traditions? All for them.

Brawl (as described in the Air Force Times)? Comical.
27 injured out of 4,000 tells me that this hardly a brawl or it speaks very poorly about our future Air Force Officers' fighting capability.

Commander's reaction? Really wouldn't have expected anything else (at least in the public eye)

I do take issue with an activity that celebrates a breach of the chain of command (albeit cadet squadron vs active duty).

 

[Mikeandcris]

Our only question in all of this is: why was this event and the ensuing injuries made public? Seems that it just gives parents another cause for concern for the safety of their "children". We would just as soon NOT know everything that goes on at the Academy - after all, we certainly didn't get reports on what went on in the dorms when our daughter was at State U. Our DS is first shirt in his squad this semester and seemed to enjoy the exhilaration of the "hall brawl". A welcome release since things lately have been pretty stressful. They were no worse for wear when it ended (in his squad anyway.)

We've also heard stories that there have been some injuries in the past during "run like hell" from the football field up to the stands at the beginning of home games. Is that next to go? It's sure fun to watch, so we hope not.

 

[Dad]

Hey guys just a bit of advice the thread is getting a bit contentious eyes closely watching this thread you could almost feel the moderators fingers itching to type something and shutting down this thread. Just my two cents!

Polaris I see this as a pick and chose battle, this one is not worth trowing yourself on the grenade for. You're also not helping your cause by mentioning all the injuries/cost from football players post the academy and not asking for the stoppage of that as well.

And I'll close with this… as with anything like this it always ends up escalating to bigger and bigger things. The good thing is that these young men and women are taught recognize and readjust depending on the situation as good leaders. I trust the cadets to SELF (adjust with some direction); and if I don't trust them to do that why the hell should I trust them with the lives of the people they are assigned to lead. So in short yes this activity does teach them how to be good leaders.

You can now donate the 2 cents you all owe me to AFA!
Will

So true.

 

[Stealth_81]

Hey guys just a bit of advice the thread is getting a bit contentious eyes closely watching this thread you could almost feel the moderators fingers itching to type something and shutting down this thread. Just my two cents!

I wouldn't say itching to shut it down, but I was definitely watching it. I wanted to chime in but didn't have time until now.

I have to say that the FS/FS tradition and other hall brawls were one of my son's favorite times at USAFA. His squadron's first shirt was a female (Her mom is on this forum). Son was a powerlifter for USAFA and also a high school running back, so he really enjoyed playing bodyguard for his first shirt. He is aggressive, as are most of the cadets. This is what they do, and they have fun. I think that this year it got a little out of hand and made it to the media. I would guess that the number of injuries wasn't much above average, people just heard about it this year. By the way, more reports concerning the 'human bite' injury are now saying it was more of an accidental contact between a cadet's teeth and a hand. Not necessarily an intentional bite.

This will hardly be the last time in their Air Force career that they will have situations like this. When Son was at IFS in Pueblo, their flight-against-flight volleyball games got so intense that two people (Son being one of them) ended up in the emergency room. Son missed two days of flying until the swelling went down enough for him to get a flight boot on. He survived and continued on. The rest of their flight training is an intense competition against each other. They will be highly competitive in everything that they do.

Although I have never heard that Son plays Crud, I can only imagine how he would do at it.

I know that in another year Son could have bad guys shooting missles at his jet, trying to make him really dead. I'm not too worried about if he is wrestling a little rough with his friends right now.

Stealth_81

 

[kdc246]

We've also heard stories that there have been some injuries in the past during "run like hell" from the football field up to the stands at the beginning of home games. Is that next to go? It's sure fun to watch, so we hope not.

They actually have toned that down too. They used to march all 40 squads on prior to the game. Starting this year it is 20 or less. Noticed it during PW and asked DD about it. Can't remember the full explanations, but it was per General Lengyel.

 

[buffalo]

They actually have toned that down too. They used to march all 40 squads on prior to the game. Starting this year it is 20 or less. Noticed it during PW and asked DD about it. Can't remember the full explanations, but it was per General Lengyel.

That may be part safety, but I think the change was also made because it is easier to get 20 squadrons quickly off the field than the entire cadet wing.

 

[Jason922]

Sigh... Sometimes traditions get out of hand.
A similar one would be at our school, Freshman get pies in their face on Valentines Day, early in the morning so they have to walk around like that all day. One guy had his nose broken when the pie container smashed into his face.

 

[RSR]

A USMA Plebe's thoughts

I have been following this tread and have to give you my 2 cents. My son called last night (a Plebe at USMA) and we talked about the snowball tradition at USAFA and the injuries that some of the cadets incurred. He thought that it sounded like a "blast", but he also and said he can't believe that they let it go public, then added "dad all of the SA's have their own traditions and it is hard for people to understand what they mean to us", (apparently he has learned a lot in a short time). I also mentioned to him that one poster suggested that it sounded like hazing, when he finally stopped laughing he said that when we hung up he was going to call up a few of his friends at the USAFA and tell them to read this thread, he figures that this would show them why they need to keep things in house.

 

[icarus]

Just like the "Gangnam style" videos of each Service Academies have captured attention and gone viral, the Information Age has ushered in "TMI" and over sharing at hyper speed with hardly any lag. Cadets post updates and comments on social media and divulge details of what used to be strictly privileged info.
The news is actually passé by the time you read about it.

 

[bruno]

Just like the "Gangnam style" videos of each Service Academies have captured attention and gone viral, the Information Age has ushered in "TMI" and over sharing at hyper speed with hardly any lag. Cadets post updates and comments on social media and divulge details of what used to be strictly privileged info.
The news is actually passé by the time you read about it.

Boy is that the truth. What used to be strictly an internal affair, which would in due course be handled appropriately by the people charged with doing so, and who had enough time to ascertain all of the facts and circumstances now is a rush to the web with everyone opining on what "needs to be done" , usually with little or no understanding of the entire picture. I'm sure that the Commandant will balance tradition with risk and discipline and will deal with this appropriately.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Sigh... Sometimes traditions get out of hand.
A similar one would be at our school, Freshman get pies in their face on Valentines Day, early in the morning so they have to walk around like that all day. One guy had his nose broken when the pie container smashed into his face.

Broken nose? Obviously the crust was baked too long. We live in a litigious world... Someone needs to sue that pie vendor so it never happens again.

 

[Blue&SilverBear]

I have been following this tread and have to give you my 2 cents. My son called last night (a Plebe at USMA) and we talked about the snowball tradition at USAFA and the injuries that some of the cadets incurred. He thought that it sounded like a "blast", but he also and said he can't believe that they let it go public, then added "dad all of the SA's have their own traditions and it is hard for people to understand what they mean to us", (apparently he has learned a lot in a short time). I also mentioned to him that one poster suggested that it sounded like hazing, when he finally stopped laughing he said that when we hung up he was going to call up a few of his friends at the USAFA and tell them to read this thread, he figures that this would show them why they need to keep things in house.

For comparison, First Shirt First Snow is far more tame than the annual Plebe Pillow* Fight at USMA.

*Kevlar required. Lock boxes may or may not end up in pillow cases.

 

[Dad]

Just a quote that was posted on facebook by a USAFA cadet. I think it makes the point that the SAs are NOT like a typical university and should not be treated as such.


"Midshipmen and cadets remain stronger and more aggressive than their male counterparts at civilian schools. They eagerly play sports such as rugby, boxing, karate, lacrosse, and football. They drive fast cars, usually sports cars. They play hard. They drink hard. They are physical, often abusive among each other. They are not trying to prove their manhood they are celebrating their masculinity. They are competitive, often vulgar, and tough, and every citizen who may someday send a friend or relative into war should rejoice, because combat is competitive, vulgar, and tough, and they will be leading men in combat."
-Senator James Webb, USNA Class of 1968

 

[Polaris]

Just a quote that was posted on facebook by a USAFA cadet. I think it makes the point that the SAs are NOT like a typical university and should not be treated as such.


"Midshipmen and cadets remain stronger and more aggressive than their male counterparts at civilian schools. They eagerly play sports such as rugby, boxing, karate, lacrosse, and football. They drive fast cars, usually sports cars. They play hard. They drink hard. They are physical, often abusive among each other. They are not trying to prove their manhood they are celebrating their masculinity. They are competitive, often vulgar, and tough, and every citizen who may someday send a friend or relative into war should rejoice, because combat is competitive, vulgar, and tough, and they will be leading men in combat."
-Senator James Webb, USNA Class of 1968

That statement is shameful and embarrassing. I expect a litany of responses to this post. The Academies are institutions that train the best and brightest of Americans to be professional officers and leaders in the military and American society. The graduates are supposed to represent the best of american society and ideals. There is on excuse for such behavior regardless of what the end result is ie Combat. We don't tolerate such behavior in the civilian sector and we should tolerate it less in the military. To tolerate anything else is unacceptable.

 

[Dad]

That statement is shameful and embarrassing. I expect a litany of responses to this post. The Academies are institutions that train the best and brightest of Americans to be professional officers and leaders in the military and American society. The graduates are supposed to represent the best of american society and ideals. There is on excuse for such behavior regardless of what the end result is ie Combat. We don't tolerate such behavior in the civilian sector and we should tolerate it less in the military. To tolerate anything else is unacceptable.

I respectfully disagree with you. We are training these young men and women in the profession of arms. Do not compare a traditional college experience with the Academy experience. It is not the parents' place to have input or intervention into the operations of this military community. The Air Force is handling the situation by working through the chain of command to eliminate or reduce injuries like the ones that occurred last week. It was a problem. They are dealing with it. End of story. What is it that you are trying to say?

 

[Christcorp]

That statement is shameful and embarrassing. I expect a litany of responses to this post. The Academies are institutions that train the best and brightest of Americans to be professional officers and leaders in the military and American society. The graduates are supposed to represent the best of american society and ideals. There is on excuse for such behavior regardless of what the end result is ie Combat. We don't tolerate such behavior in the civilian sector and we should tolerate it less in the military. To tolerate anything else is unacceptable.

The "Statement" is neither shameful nor embarrassing. For the "Politically Correct", certain "Words" may be offensive. That's due to the "Kinder and Gentler" military and society that we have come to expect. But the "MEANING" and "CONTEXT" of the statement is totally true. There is a camaraderie, brother/sisterhood, family, bond, etc... found in the military and academies that is unlike most of the civilian world. As time goes on, maybe the individuals aren't drinking as much, smoking cigarettes, whore chasing, fighting, etc... as much. Maybe it's different activities. But the "CONCEPT" is still the same. There are societal changes in the military just like anyplace else. When I joined in the 70's, tattoos were going out of phase and things like ear rings were coming into vogue. Over time, ear rings are gone and tattoos seem to be coming back into fad. The quote of actions in the "60's" may not be in play today, but the "Concept" most certainly is. And you need to accept that.

The academies and the military are NOT traditional society. The people are different. Perspective is different among the people. Sense of importance and a look at a much less selfish and bigger picture is part of the norm. And realizing that at any moment, you could be asked to DIE. So no, the statement is neither shameful or embarrassing. You simply don't understand the contextual meaning of the statement. Once you understand it, you'll realize that it is totally true.