USAFA Cadets Being Affected by Budget Cuts

Can anyone answer why the other Academies are not mentioning budget cuts? I have appointments to three of the Academies and am down to making my final decision. You are all so knowledgable about the AFA, are these budget issues concerning enough to re-consider AFA as my first choice?

As to your inquiry as to whether the other services are considering troop reductions in the face of budget cuts:

Interesting article in today's Early Bird:

http://ebird.osd.mil/ebfiles/e20110214805958.html

Looks like the spicket is already being turned down some, at least for the Army....
 
As to your inquiry as to whether the other services are considering troop reductions in the face of budget cuts:

Interesting article in today's Early Bird:

http://ebird.osd.mil/ebfiles/e20110214805958.html

Looks like the spicket is already being turned down some, at least for the Army....

Could you give a description of what the article says - the screen I get when using your link isn't allowing a non .mil access. Thanks.
 
Of course, to me, the question still comes down to the ROI. 400K is a big investment. 1000 cadets X 400K = 400,000,000 per class. That is a lot of money...sorry, but what if 50% bolted? Basically that would be 200,000,000 flushed away. As a tax payer before you hit my tax deductions, I would be mad to know we, as taxpayers gave a free education, while I have kids on student payment plans and loans.

Pima, it has been mentioned by some, but we need to clarify this math. This is not how it works. USAFA does not get funds based on each cadet (aka, we get 400K per cadet at USAFA). USAFA has a very large capital cost for the base, facilities, faculty, etc. As others have mentioned, the only additional cost per cadet is A) Direct costs of room/board/food/utilities and B) the indirect costs of instructor time (affects number of classes per instructor due to grading, but this really doesn't actually change much), and other indirect effects on staff time. Honestly, the actual per cadet price at USAFA is probably <100K for the entire four years. The 400K oft quoted is usually calculated by taking USAFA's funding for four years and dividing by wing strength (something along those lines). Is it really a true estimate when the 10th ABW is factored into that (as an example)? A cut of 200 cadets from the wing would be around ~ $20M or around 6% reduction in costs of the $342M budget they has FY2010. In contrast, USAFA had a 12% budget reduction for FY2011.

So, the marginal costs of cutting cadets is low in direct costs. In future costs as officers and RIFs, those are quite large and I imagine, as you mentioned, this is what they are trying to reduce as well as bringing the USAF to the appropriate, and legal, end-strength.
 
Per Ohio2015parent's request:

Army Times
February 21, 2011
Pg. 7

4,800 Officers Must Be Cut In Drawdown


The Army’s planned drawdown of 27,000 soldiers — slated for 2015 — must include 4,800 officers, a senior Army official said Feb. 11.

The official, speaking at TRADOC’s Unified Quest meeting in McLean, Va., said the instructions came from the Defense Department.

Last month, Defense Secretary Robert Gates ordered the Army to make two cuts over the next few years.

The first would be done by eliminating, by the end of 2013, 22,000 “temporary” jobs added in 2009 to help the Army cope with deployment needs.

The second would be a cut of 27,000, which will begin with a cut of 13,500 soldiers in 2015 and the same number the following year.

Cutting 4,800 officers would mean that about 17 percent of the cuts would be in the officer ranks, a figure somewhat equivalent to the percentage of soldiers who are officers.
 
I think he is asking if the other services have as many RIF's historically as the Air Force. This young person has an opportunity to attend any of the big three academies. I think this is a valid question.

I actually disagree. Unless said candidate has a desire to be as ordinary or low-achieving as possible, then it should be irrelevant. Those that will be force-shaped non-voluntarily are generally going to be the people performing the worst in their year group.

If the concern is cuts in a competitive career-field (ex: Intel or scientist for USAFA), the previous still applies. On the other hand, I understand the "best chances" argument which is why many take USAFA over AFROTC for pilot-opportunities. On that front, those career fields are usually going to be cut across all services, so it becomes a moot point for a particular SA.

So, full circle on this. Choose the Academy for the service and life you want, not on the chances of RIF. They are a part of each service. Like anything else, you can be RIF-proof by being the best. Anyone who has a desire to be the best they can and to perform well has little to worry about with regards to RIF. Or, another way, I'd rather be an AF scientist and risk a RIP than an Army Infantry officer. Nothing against the field, but it's not my cup of tea and I'd rather like my job and risk the RIF (while still getting benefits if I am) than be in a job which is less likely to be cut, but where I won't be happy.
 
I actually disagree. Unless said candidate has a desire to be as ordinary or low-achieving as possible, then it should be irrelevant. Those that will be force-shaped non-voluntarily are generally going to be the people performing the worst in their year group.

If the concern is cuts in a competitive career-field (ex: Intel or scientist for USAFA), the previous still applies. On the other hand, I understand the "best chances" argument which is why many take USAFA over AFROTC for pilot-opportunities. On that front, those career fields are usually going to be cut across all services, so it becomes a moot point for a particular SA.

So, full circle on this. Choose the Academy for the service and life you want, not on the chances of RIF. They are a part of each service. Like anything else, you can be RIF-proof by being the best. Anyone who has a desire to be the best they can and to perform well has little to worry about with regards to RIF. Or, another way, I'd rather be an AF scientist and risk a RIP than an Army Infantry officer. Nothing against the field, but it's not my cup of tea and I'd rather like my job and risk the RIF (while still getting benefits if I am) than be in a job which is less likely to be cut, but where I won't be happy.

There are cadets/mids that stuggle thru their 4 years. They don't choose to be ordinary or last in the class. They work harder than most. This individual has an opportunity to attend any of the three service academies. If he went through the ordeal to apply to all three, and get an appointment to all three. IMO :confused:with his future ahead of him it is a valid question.
 
I'll sort of disagree from a different viewpoint.

1. Academically; ALL academies are roughly the same in level of difficulty. So; if they "Struggle" through one, there's a good chance they'll struggle through all.

2. No matter what career you choose from the academy, they are ALL subject to a RIF. I've seen it with pilots, comm officers, intel, scientists, engineers, etc.... None of the career fields are "Future Proof".

3. The military WILL get their 5 years minimum out of an academy cadet. So you're not going to be rif'd prior to that.

4. If you aren't currently at the academy, then you are talking about a very MINIMUM of 9 years from now, before you have to worry about even being considered for a RIF. 9 years!!! That's 3 more presidential elections. A guaranteed totally different economy.

So; I only consider thinking of future Rif's as a valid question, if the individual doesn't understand politics, economics, or international affairs. Economic cycles roll every 7-8 years. Been doing so since the great depression. In my 21 years in the military 1978-1999 there were varying degrees of Rif's, career restructuring, build ups (Where they paid you bonuses to stay in), etc...

In a nut shell; there isn't one possibly thing an individual can foresee about the military for 9 years into the future. It's just not possible. Hell, the Mayans could be right, and there's less than 2 years left anyway. Point is: You're talking about 9 years into the future. Anyone who thinks they can future proof their military career by deciding today which academy to attend, is actually doing themselves a major disservice. If they have the opportunity to choose which academy to accept an appointment from, then as hornet said, they need to pick the one they really want to serve in, for the job they want to do. Trying to "Count Cards" like you're in Vegas, is not a valid method.
 
CC, spot on, except one part. They will RIF prior to 5 years. Several USAFA grads from 2009 have already been dropped. Here's one for you: I was the best man for an '09 grad's wedding last May. He voluntarily dropped out of pilot training for airsickness. They had a board, decided that he was not worth retraining/retaining, and RIFed him in Dec. Also pinned him with a $110,000 bill for the remainder of his commitment that was unfulfilled. He wasn't the only one this happened to (and not all of them were due to training drops, usually they were deemed not good enough). He is now working as a Barista at Starbucks in MS and already has the same job lined up in Tucson when he and his wife move there for her post-training assignment to DMAFB.

But, to reiterate some of your points. If a career field is being cut at USAFA, it is probably being cut across the services (like scientist and intel). Your chances at non-service specific jobs (so not pilot, SWO, subs, infantry; so things like scientist, intel, engineer, comm) will likely be the same across the academies and the difficulty, as CC said, are about the same.
 
I've heard of early separations prior to commitment. However; I've never heard of the air force slapping a bill on the individual for repayment. Not unless the individual simply was a screw up. But that is definitely interesting.
 
I've heard of early separations prior to commitment. However; I've never heard of the air force slapping a bill on the individual for repayment. Not unless the individual simply was a screw up. But that is definitely interesting.

I heard a rumor to that affect back in the 80s. USAFA grad pissed off people at UPT because he came across strongly as though he was 'owed' wings for putting up with the AFA instead of something easier like ROTC and was a nuisance with a mal attitude. Anyway, hooked rides, eventually booted out and supposedly was 'billed' for good measure. I think it's always depended on the circumstance.
 
The key word in Hornet's post was "VOLUNTARY", he was not FEB due to medical or academic, but he decided to leave on his own request.

I have heard of about 3 stories, not only AFA, AFROTC, but also AFAD where they were required to payback.

Usually, it is a wash...in this case he may owe 100K, however, since he was RIF'd they probably said no RIF pay for you.

Our DS's friend who attended SFT this summer, came back and said this is not for me. The AF told him you owe us 70K for the scholarship. His folks had to take loans to pay back the AF. It was his decision to leave, not theirs.

This is business, they invested in an asset. In these economic times they will try to re-coup their losses.

The AF maybe hard arses on this manner, but the fact is they have a financial investment and can't have everyone say thanks, but I am outta of here.

When economic times are hard they are like you or I, we squeeze every penny coming out of our wallet. Economic times are hard and they need every penny.

I think as a parent, IMPO, I would say if RIF is your fear, it is unfounded for a 17/18 yr old re: the AFA. The ones that are in fear are already in the system, be it cadet or newly minted O1.

I would say to my kid, the Army and Navy would make me fearful, because they are showing the signs that they are following the AF, and now you maybe in the target zone.

The signs are there...AROTC is drastically cutting scholarships for 15. Usually they are the 1st hit. Can't get enough of them out, they start attacking other options, such as OCS and SA.

History can be a predictor of the future.

The Army will be drawing down out of the sandbox. These AD members owe time. The Army is like the AF and Navy. There is a ratio of officer to enlisted, and Field to Company in the officer rank. The Army can be faced with the same fact...too many company officers in the pipeline, so what will they do? Where will they place all of these officers stateside when the drawdown occurs

They will do the exact same thing as the AF.

Again history is a predictor...can we all say RIF 92-94? The AF was done by the end of 92/early 93...the Army ended in 94.
 
CC, spot on, except one part. They will RIF prior to 5 years. Several USAFA grads from 2009 have already been dropped. Here's one for you: I was the best man for an '09 grad's wedding last May. He voluntarily dropped out of pilot training for airsickness. They had a board, decided that he was not worth retraining/retaining, and RIFed him in Dec. Also pinned him with a $110,000 bill for the remainder of his commitment that was unfulfilled. He wasn't the only one this happened to (and not all of them were due to training drops, usually they were deemed not good enough). He is now working as a Barista at Starbucks in MS and already has the same job lined up in Tucson when he and his wife move there for her post-training assignment to DMAFB.

But, to reiterate some of your points. If a career field is being cut at USAFA, it is probably being cut across the services (like scientist and intel). Your chances at non-service specific jobs (so not pilot, SWO, subs, infantry; so things like scientist, intel, engineer, comm) will likely be the same across the academies and the difficulty, as CC said, are about the same.

That is a major drag.

The dude quit because he was puking in the airplane, and they billed him? I suppose if he had been forced out of pilot training, that would not be the case. I would think someone should have counseled him to seek medical treatment first, and let the physicians decide if he was fit to continue in training. I can understand him being physically miserable in the plane, which is why, if it was me, I'd have gone to the flight doc first before I handed in my resignation. Had it been me, I'd have preferred to have them kick me out (seems like it would be easier to get a new AFSC that way). I had several missileers with me at Minot who were booted from UPT/UNT for puking, although I can't remember if we had anyone who had quit. This was several years ago, though. I understand it's different for everyone.

Not that you have to say, but was the medical reason the only reason the guy didn't want to keep on with UPT?
 
I'll sort of disagree from a different viewpoint.

1. Academically; ALL academies are roughly the same in level of difficulty. So; if they "Struggle" through one, there's a good chance they'll struggle through all.

2. No matter what career you choose from the academy, they are ALL subject to a RIF. I've seen it with pilots, comm officers, intel, scientists, engineers, etc.... None of the career fields are "Future Proof".

3. The military WILL get their 5 years minimum out of an academy cadet. So you're not going to be rif'd prior to that.

4. If you aren't currently at the academy, then you are talking about a very MINIMUM of 9 years from now, before you have to worry about even being considered for a RIF. 9 years!!! That's 3 more presidential elections. A guaranteed totally different economy.

So; I only consider thinking of future Rif's as a valid question, if the individual doesn't understand politics, economics, or international affairs. Economic cycles roll every 7-8 years. Been doing so since the great depression. In my 21 years in the military 1978-1999 there were varying degrees of Rif's, career restructuring, build ups (Where they paid you bonuses to stay in), etc...

In a nut shell; there isn't one possibly thing an individual can foresee about the military for 9 years into the future. It's just not possible. Hell, the Mayans could be right, and there's less than 2 years left anyway. Point is: You're talking about 9 years into the future. Anyone who thinks they can future proof their military career by deciding today which academy to attend, is actually doing themselves a major disservice. If they have the opportunity to choose which academy to accept an appointment from, then as hornet said, they need to pick the one they really want to serve in, for the job they want to do. Trying to "Count Cards" like you're in Vegas, is not a valid method.

The one thing I can appreciate about the Air Force is it honesty. They have informed all airmen and potential airmen of their future plans. Now it is up to each individual on how they want to proceed.
 
I would think someone should have counseled him to seek medical treatment first, and let the physicians decide if he was fit to continue in training. I can understand him being physically miserable in the plane, which is why, if it was me, I'd have gone to the flight doc first before I handed in my resignation.

Fliers would rather have their appendages broken one by one before they see a flight doc and acknowledge anything.:rolleyes:

The AD member would never seek counsel or treatment because that would open them up to being completely med dq.

I would suspect that they were rolling dice, hoping to change career paths without exposing a medical issue.

Ask Bullet his toes and fingers are mis-shaped because instead of going to a flight doc he re-set them himself.

Flight docs are great, but many times they are seen as the enemy.

People in the know, know that by acknowledging air sickness would have caused and immediate referral for medical reasons. That would have created a long form physical.

Was it smart, probably not, but is understandable coming from the flying community of why he opted not to acknowledge it to the docs...yes.

Again, you'd be amazed how guarded fliers are regarding the medical world. They will send their family the 1st sign of a sniffle, yet for them, they will crawl out of bed with a fever and say "I am good to go".

In 20 yrs of Bullet's career, I can say that between him and other fliers I would only use 2 hands for the amount of times they saw a flight doc due to illness. Okay that is an exaggeration, my hands and feet would be the realistic number:eek:

Flieger, in your 25 yrs, what did it take for you to visit a flight doc on your own free will when you had an issue?

101 temp?
 
That is a major drag.

The dude quit because he was puking in the airplane, and they billed him? I suppose if he had been forced out of pilot training, that would not be the case. I would think someone should have counseled him to seek medical treatment first, and let the physicians decide if he was fit to continue in training. I can understand him being physically miserable in the plane, which is why, if it was me, I'd have gone to the flight doc first before I handed in my resignation. Had it been me, I'd have preferred to have them kick me out (seems like it would be easier to get a new AFSC that way). I had several missileers with me at Minot who were booted from UPT/UNT for puking, although I can't remember if we had anyone who had quit. This was several years ago, though. I understand it's different for everyone.

Not that you have to say, but was the medical reason the only reason the guy didn't want to keep on with UPT?

If you're going to try and be a pilot, I'd start off eating 'Dramamine". Then ween myself off of them. One thing I noticed about motion sickness; and this is coming from an individual who ALWAYS gets sick. Sea, Car, planes, etc... When I'm DRIVING. i NEVER get sick. If I'm a passenger, all bets are off. (That's when Dramamine comes in. But if i'm driving, steering the boat, etc... motion sickness is never an issue.

Thus, a SIDE NOTE: Would the air force frown on someone taking dramamine during UPT when they're the passenger, centrifuge, etc...?
 
That is a major drag.

The dude quit because he was puking in the airplane, and they billed him? I suppose if he had been forced out of pilot training, that would not be the case. I would think someone should have counseled him to seek medical treatment first, and let the physicians decide if he was fit to continue in training. I can understand him being physically miserable in the plane, which is why, if it was me, I'd have gone to the flight doc first before I handed in my resignation. Had it been me, I'd have preferred to have them kick me out (seems like it would be easier to get a new AFSC that way). I had several missileers with me at Minot who were booted from UPT/UNT for puking, although I can't remember if we had anyone who had quit. This was several years ago, though. I understand it's different for everyone.

Not that you have to say, but was the medical reason the only reason the guy didn't want to keep on with UPT?

Every time you get airsick at UPT they would make you go to the hospital after the flight, if I remember right. It gets 'officially' logged and you can only do it so many times before they raise the fitness flag. A lot of guys get airsick when they start flying and most people stop getting airsick after a few flights. I am not sure they'd allow you to solo until you had been 'clean' for a while from consistent airsickness. You don't get to take hardly anything w/o flight surgeon approval, obviously. Don't remember if dramamine was on the approved list but probably NOT. Pretty sure AF still wants pilots that never need dramamine.
 
Fliers would rather have their appendages broken one by one before they see a flight doc and acknowledge anything.:rolleyes:

The AD member would never seek counsel or treatment because that would open them up to being completely med dq.

?

I'll preface that this is all speculation, and I in no way wish to cast any clouds over hornetguy's friend.

In response to Pima-

I can understand not disclosing a medical condition because you don't want to be removed from UPT (I wouldn't condone it, but I can understand it); however, in quitting, this individual apparantly no longer wished to be a pilot. I would think it would have behooved him to disclose his medical condition at the point he realized he was physically miserable when flying (and didn't wish to continue training), even if there was a risk of separation. Looks like he was separated anyway, and if he had been medically boarded out of the service, I would think he would likely not have a $110,000 bill. That is a hefty bill which would take about 120 years of Starbucks employment to pay off.

If he didn't disclose his medical condition, did he give a reason for not wanting to continue training? Is that even required, or can you just quit without telling anyone why? I have to imagine there is some sort of counseling involved.
 
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Every time you get airsick at UPT they would make you go to the hospital after the flight, if I remember right. It gets 'officially' logged and you can only do it so many times before they raise the fitness flag. A lot of guys get airsick when they start flying and most people stop getting airsick after a few flights. I am not sure they'd allow you to solo until you had been 'clean' for a while from consistent airsickness. You don't get to take hardly anything w/o flight surgeon approval, obviously. Don't remember if dramamine was on the approved list but probably NOT. Pretty sure AF still wants pilots that never need dramamine.

We had something similar in the missile community because of PRP. Different reasons, but there were only a few OTC things you could take without going to aersospace medicine for approval.

Seems to me that the medical issue of motion sickness would be well-documented. Thus, it seems very strange to give the guy a bill once he was separated. Really sucks!
 
Flieger, in your 25 yrs, what did it take for you to visit a flight doc on your own free will when you had an issue?

101 temp?


Hmm...

I'm a bad person to ask because my father was a flight surgeon for 30+ years and he taught me well what I could and could NOT take and "get away with it." :rolleyes:

That being said...yes, a high fever would do it...or uncontrollable anything (chills/shaking, vomiting, etc.)

But that was about it...I basically use the position of: "if going to fly might be worse than seeing the doc..."

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
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