USAFA Cheating Scandal

hornetguy said:
I'm glad for the leaders at USAFA and their judgment on honor than what some on here would feel so entitled to hand out in their cut and dry judgment. I wouldn't simply be sad these people wouldn't have completed USAFA but I would have mourned the USAF for having lost such competent, motivating, and exceptional leaders.
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+1000
 
Christcorp said:
Well; I'm glad there are honorable people like you who when you speed in your car or go through a red light, you find a police officer and tell him/her that you did it.

Your 2nd paragraph above states perfectly why it ISN'T so cut and dry. You said: "Honor is NOT cheating in the first place"..... However, but, maybe, perhaps, by chance, etc... you DO CHEAT; then it's honorable if you turn yourself in BEFORE getting caught. Is that like "Losing salvation, then regaining it"? So, if you don't cheat, you're honorable. If you DO cheat, you ARE NO LONGER honorable. HOWEVER: If you fess up prior to anyone catching you or turning you in, you can REGAIN your honor.

And you really think the honor code, every infraction, and every discipline action is that clear cut? The honor code for army and air force says: We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. "Variation for army". So; if a cadet did something illegal, but didn't include stealing or cheating; and No One asked him/her about it, so they didn't have to LIE; they would still be "Honorable" if they didn't confess or turn themselves in for the offense? If you can't see that "HONOR" is not as clear cut as you want to make it out to be, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Is it "Honorable" to slander a fellow cadet? Set another cadet up for failure? Abstain from helping out a fellow cadet? Is any of that "Honorable"? Yet, they didn't lie, steal, or cheat. I guess they are then honorable. Excellent team spirit. Sorry; but it's not that clear cut. Not the way you want it to be.
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After years on this forum and numerous discussions about the Academies' distinction between honor and discipline, I'm shocked you understand it so poorly.

Do people demonstrate a lack of judgment in matters of discipline? Yes. Is discipline linked to integrity? Yes.

We can debate ad nauseum the philosophical links between discipline and the honor code. But the bottom line remains. Cadets MUST be honorable. The ability to demonstrate that is paramount. They will still run red lights or sham on cleaning their rooms (though based on my experience at USAFA, that's a pandemic), but they will be people who, when faced with crucial military and moral decisions, will not lie, will not cheat, and will not steal. Someday those kids will be handed millions of dollars of aircraft and priceless lives. They cannot fail to make the right decision, and the demonstrated potential to make sound moral judgments in tough times will be their foundation.

Those times come. Sometimes it's as dire as reporting your best friend and mentor for firing without clearance, when his written debrief says he'd received clearance.

Are people who willingly break regs honorable? No, probably not to the level they should be. But that's not the code. It's a defined code with defined rules and known consequences. I doubt most parents would want their child's life in the hands of someone whose ability to face tough moral choices fails at the prospect of a poor grade on a college exam.

Tough standards? Yes. But they agreed to live by the code, didn't they?
 
Even though we have an honor concept at USCGA, command has been cracking down here. People who had received NJP and been retained early in the spring semester are getting called back and disenrolled. It's best to err on the side of caution.
 
marciemi said:
To me if they cheated and got caught - they should be gone. Period. But I guess that's the West Pointer of the 80's talking, not the kinder, gentler AF of the 2000's. Forget reasons and explanations - I can just imagine this at an honor board during my era:

Board: So you admit you were cheating?
Cadet: Yes, but let me explain why..
Board: NEXT!!

Seriously though I have to question what the honor code even means if a cut and dried case like this doesn't result in expulsion.
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Taking OFF my ALO hat here...

This '83 grad has LONG harbored the belief that the "Honor Code" at USAFA has been watered down for "politically correct" reasons.

I watched several friends "make a mistake" while we were at USAFA from 1979 - 1983. And they went to honor boards and they were disenrolled because they were guilty. We all agreed to live by the honor code, to uphold this very high standard, and we accepted the consequences of our actions.

Today??

Don't get me started.

Steve
USAFA '83
 
Usually I tend to lean toward the "black and white" view, but this has a couple red flags. If this was really a case where 90+ cadets independently violated academic instructions in the same way, it makes me wonder just what those instructions were, how they were delivered, and how that compared with previous instructions.

If the cadets truly understood the website was off-limits in its entirety for the test, then yes, they should get honor hits. If things were more ambiguous...

As for the system in general, I definitely saw some cases where someone appeared to have been given much more leniency than many thought appropriate. However, I would be inclined to give someone a second chance in a few situations as well. Let's say a student used an unauthorized resource in a minor way on a test, goes back to their room and thinks on it for an hour, then goes back to their instructor and admits to their mistake. I would be inclined to say they made a terrible decision, but not automatically say they are unfit to lead anyone in the future. That is where some judgement is needed.
 
scoutpilot said:
As parents of young men and women in uniform, try to view it not from the angle of your kids committing an honor offense, but from the angle of whether or not you'd want the life of your child entrusted to the care of a superior who cannot be trusted to do the right thing when no one is looking. Would you want the life you created to be in the hands of someone whose discriminator between right and wrong is whether or not they'll get caught?
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Within the confines of your argument, of course no one would find it acceptable. But this may not be the instance here, yet over and over again people continue to make statements as if they know the totality of the truth in all of these cases.

If you believe in a system and believe in the frame work of the system, you must also accept the decisions that are made within the framework of the system. You cannot have it both ways. In this instance the leadership at USAFA and the Cadet Honor boards have chosen to deal with this situation and it appears to be case by case, if most are retained or not retained, I have to believe that good people, acting in good faith are doing the right things.
 
falconfamily said:
Within the confines of your argument, of course no one would find it acceptable. But this may not be the instance here, yet over and over again people continue to make statements as if they know the totality of the truth in all of these cases.

If you believe in a system and believe in the frame work of the system, you must also accept the decisions that are made within the framework of the system. You cannot have it both ways. In this instance the leadership at USAFA and the Cadet Honor boards have chosen to deal with this situation and it appears to be case by case, if most are retained or not retained, I have to believe that good people, acting in good faith are doing the right things.
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I never said I believe in USAFA's system. In fact, I said it was weak.

Flieger83, glad to hear from a grad.
 
I am saddened to read of this. My DS also commented that the cadets KNEW what they were doing by using the site that was off-limits, and are now going thru/playing the system.
It strikes me as odd that 'those who normally do well on tests, failed' and hence the investigation. I'd suspect cheaters would be receiving unusually high grades. Something is amiss.
Is there any hint of being 'soft' on these cadets because they are in an already reduced class size? I doubt USAFA would want to see an attrition increase for 2015.
I'm disheartened a cadet-run-honor-system may allow these DS's and DD's to remain after being so (apparently) obvious.
 
Christcorp said:
Well; I'm glad there are honorable people like you who when you speed in your car or go through a red light, you find a police officer and tell him/her that you did it.

Your 2nd paragraph above states perfectly why it ISN'T so cut and dry. You said: "Honor is NOT cheating in the first place"..... However, but, maybe, perhaps, by chance, etc... you DO CHEAT; then it's honorable if you turn yourself in BEFORE getting caught. Is that like "Losing salvation, then regaining it"? So, if you don't cheat, you're honorable. If you DO cheat, you ARE NO LONGER honorable. HOWEVER: If you fess up prior to anyone catching you or turning you in, you can REGAIN your honor.

And you really think the honor code, every infraction, and every discipline action is that clear cut? The honor code for army and air force says: We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. "Variation for army". So; if a cadet did something illegal, but didn't include stealing or cheating; and No One asked him/her about it, so they didn't have to LIE; they would still be "Honorable" if they didn't confess or turn themselves in for the offense? If you can't see that "HONOR" is not as clear cut as you want to make it out to be, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Is it "Honorable" to slander a fellow cadet? Set another cadet up for failure? Abstain from helping out a fellow cadet? Is any of that "Honorable"? Yet, they didn't lie, steal, or cheat. I guess they are then honorable. Excellent team spirit. Sorry; but it's not that clear cut. Not the way you want it to be.
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Is it only murder after you get caught?
 
Casey said:
Its not on the professor in the slightest to cater to not helping you break the code, nor should it be.
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You know why different sections of the same course have different WPRs, right?

To those who are demanding the guillotine (or gallows, or firing squad, pick your metaphor): at least in the case of the USMA honor system, cadets are expected to GROW into a self-policing honorable person. Plebes are expected to follow the code, firsties are expected to have internalized it. It is quite logical to be less "fatal" when it comes to punishing plebes (which is what most of the cadets who cheated on the math test were), although naturally this depends on the specific offense.

The link below has some good information on what USMA calls "discretion" (and note that discretion has been around for a LONG time) :

http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE02/Beers02.html
 
So, let me get this straight, if you're going to cheat on a test a cadet should make sure he/she gets 299 (or thereabouts) other cadets to cheat on the same test. That way you have strength in numbers. No way will the system toss out all 300. Instead, remediation will be offered as a means to maintaining the integrity of the class size so there are enough C2Cs and C1Cs in 2 years to train-up the new 4-digs. Makes perfect sense now!
 
DHinNH said:
You know why different sections of the same course have different WPRs, right?

To those who are demanding the guillotine (or gallows, or firing squad, pick your metaphor): at least in the case of the USMA honor system, cadets are expected to GROW into a self-policing honorable person. Plebes are expected to follow the code, firsties are expected to have internalized it. It is quite logical to be less "fatal" when it comes to punishing plebes (which is what most of the cadets who cheated on the math test were), although naturally this depends on the specific offense.

The link below has some good information on what USMA calls "discretion" (and note that discretion has been around for a LONG time) :

http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE02/Beers02.html
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Good point, HOWEVER, there are still honor violations for which plebes are separated. A system that allows growth does not mean a system that allows plebes a "freebie" for any and all honor violations. There are many violations that are so simply wrong and understandable that plebes are expected not to commit them. Cheating on a test has been wrong since kindergarten. That isn't beyond the realm of understanding for a plebe, and it will get one separated.
 
It's most definitely not my place to say anything. It's probably not wise for me to take part in this discussion, either. I apologize in advance for anything taken the wrong way.

Freshmen have spent less than a year in an Air Force environment. Some of those freshmen are probably high school students who are used to getting away with things like that on a regular basis back in their hometown. Now, the remediation, negative spotlight in the news, and the accusations are probably a big kick-in-the-teeth/eye-opener for them. I know I would be scared to death if the threat of expulsion was hanging over my head. Instead of kicking XX number of 4*s, they could be remediated and taught that bad actions have bad consequences. Even good officers make mistakes, but its up to the leadership to decide whether they get a chance to learn from them or not.

Just the point of view from someone about to enter the Academy.

Edit* Just to clarify, I have absolutely no intention of cheating, lol.
 
Shurstell said:
It's most definitely not my place to say anything. It's probably not wise for me to take part in this discussion, either. I apologize in advance for anything taken the wrong way.

Freshmen have spent less than a year in an Air Force environment. Some of those freshmen are probably high school students who are used to getting away with things like that on a regular basis back in their hometown. Now, the remediation, negative spotlight in the news, and the accusations are probably a big kick-in-the-teeth/eye-opener for them. I know I would be scared to death if the threat of expulsion was hanging over my head. Instead of kicking XX number of 4*s, they could be remediated and taught that bad actions have bad consequences. Even good officers make mistakes, but its up to the leadership to decide whether they get a chance to learn from them or not.

Just the point of view from someone about to enter the Academy.

Edit* Just to clarify, I have absolutely no intention of cheating, lol.
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Just to clarify, your point is that they were used to getting away with cheating in high school, so they should get a break for doing it at USAFA?
 
My point is that they are not as experienced in working in a military environment being that its their first year. Putting them on remediation for admitting to a mistake seems more fitting than expelling them.
 
Shurstell said:
My point is that they are not as experienced in working in a military environment being that its their first year. Putting them on remediation for admitting to a mistake seems more fitting than expelling them.
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Because not cheating on a test is a unique military skill...
 
scoutpilot said:
Because not cheating on a test is a unique military skill...
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True. I'm sure he/she will figure it out when they arrive at USAFA.

One of my classmates received NJP midway in the spring semester and was retained for cheating. He had completed all of his punishment for the offense, but a couple of weeks ago command decided to overturn his case and recall him from leave in order to disenroll him.

I bring this up because it's always important to maintain your honor and not let it drop for a second. It's in those small moments where you get comfortable that smart people end up making stupid decisions.
 
SamAca10 said:
One of my classmates received NJP midway in the spring semester and was retained for cheating. He had completed all of his punishment for the offense, but a couple of weeks ago command decided to overturn his case and recall him from leave in order to disenroll him.
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"Get back here so we can make you leave!" :confused:
 
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