USMA Overnight Visit

You guys are right. I do want the true West Point experience on the tour; I'll tour with a plebe.
 
I would see West Point with a plebe. My cadet had his overnight visit with the plebe who had given him his day tour earlier in the fall. They hit it off, stayed in touch, and my cadet requested him for his overnight. The plebe was very frank with him about Beast and his first year.......his struggles and successes. My cadet valued this honest information and it helped him tremendously when he started at WP.

My son was very good friends with a Cow at the time and even he recommended he do the overnight with a plebe in order to see what the first year is like.

Concur about staying with a Plebe.
It would benefit a candidate to see West Point through the eyes of a Plebe.
In addition to all of the good reasons other posters have stated, you will go to classes with the Plebe. This enables the candidate to see what classes will be like their first year. As a candidate, do you really want to go to class with a Firstie who is in the thick of his/her classes in their major?
As a candidate, I would rather see what Calculus, Chemistry, English etc. were like.

That being said, make sure to talk to upperclassmen as well. It also has it's benefits as they will have more insight on the full experience and a better perspective on things. It will let you take a look at the destination rather than the path.

While a Plebe will know more about the "suckier" parts of USMA such as duties and things like that, a firstie will be able to tell you the feeling of receiving your class ring, getting your branch, and being so close to getting your diploma and commissioning.
 
You'll get a pretty comprehensive schedule when you sign up and a list of what to bring, directions, stuff like that. I had a ton of fun on my visit. Echoing Jake, I feel like a visit closer to a weekend on say Thursday or Friday works out well because your son won't have to sit there while the cadet gets through homework, but would get to hang out with more people while also attending classes. Best of both worlds.

abeastlybeast, hopefully your visit isn't scheduled during spring break for the Corps or there will be no one around to stay with...

I have my overnight in early March. Have not heard anything about details (no email, etc). Should I have heard by now? I realize that I will likely have to call admissions for this, but just in case others are also interested...


That being said, make sure to talk to upperclassmen as well. It also has it's benefits as they will have more insight on the full experience and a better perspective on things. It will let you take a look at the destination rather than the path.

While a Plebe will know more about the "suckier" parts of USMA such as duties and things like that, a firstie will be able to tell you the feeling of receiving your class ring, getting your branch, and being so close to getting your diploma and commissioning.

I don't recall the option to request upperclassman vs plebe -- maybe that was something to do via the 'comments' section -- but I plan to accept whatever I get since i can see the benefits of both and will simply plan to seek out plebes if I am with a firstie, and vice versa.
 
I have my overnight in early March. Have not heard anything about details (no email, etc). Should I have heard by now? I realize that I will likely have to call admissions for this, but just in case others are also interested...




I don't recall the option to request upperclassman vs plebe -- maybe that was something to do via the 'comments' section -

To my knowledge the drags are nearly always yuks (sophomores). That may not be policy, but does seem to be practice.

DS's experience was that the company leadership wanted to meet him, introduced themselves, and the company commander scheduled time for a quick chat 1:1. It was the interactions with upperclassmen in leadership positions that cemented DS's choice of USMA over USNA. (He had a totally difference experience there on two different trips)

If you do not see your drag lining that up once you get there, I'd ask them to do so.
 
To my knowledge the drags are nearly always yuks (sophomores). That may not be policy, but does seem to be practice.

DS's experience was that the company leadership wanted to meet him, introduced themselves, and the company commander scheduled time for a quick chat 1:1. It was the interactions with upperclassmen in leadership positions that cemented DS's choice of USMA over USNA. (He had a totally difference experience there on two different trips)

If you do not see your drag lining that up once you get there, I'd ask them to do so.

Thanks for the quick response, @hawk. I will, indeed, make sure to have my drag set up time with company leadership & company commander if that does not appear to be in place when I get there.

I am particularly interested in what your DS had for impressions of USNA and USMA that made him choose USMA. I myself am in the exact same situation, with nominations and appointments to both, and my up-close looks at both SAs have led me to USMA as the best choice for me. I'm just curious if your DS's impressions jibed with mine, especially in the nuances of leadership style that I saw at USNA vs what I believe I have seen at USMA. Especially with me as a mostly clueless high school senior trying to map all this together, I'd be interested in the perspective. How much did your DS's impressions end up being reality when he got there as a cadet?

@hawk: I can private message you if that's better, since I am fearful that that this line of questions could end up morphing this thread into a USNA bash thread, which is NOT my intentions, since I have way too much respect for those at USNA to have it go there.
 
I was in Annapolis over the weekend for the swim dive league meet. An employee of USNA came up to a group of parents after the meet, while we waiting for our kids (Navy won meet, btw). He said a young lady who is a family friend was heavily recruited by both USNA and USMA. He strongly encouraged her to USNA, obviously. She ended up choosing USMA because at West Point (said she) "it's all about team." At Navy, it seemed to her that it was all personal achievement, and not about the team, or the company, or the squad. The USNA employee went on to compliment our team on how they all cheered for each other and had great attitudes.

Have you noticed, West Point football players do not have their names on the jerseys?
 
@hawk: I can private message you if that's better, since I am fearful that that this line of questions could end up morphing this thread into a USNA bash thread, which is NOT my intentions, since I have way too much respect for those at USNA to have it go there.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a "bash Navy" thread in the West Point section. You have not been a member very long but that's just not how it's done in this part of the forum. West Point stands on its own merits, no need to deride another service academy.
 
I am particularly interested in what your DS had for impressions of USNA and USMA that made him choose USMA. I myself am in the exact same situation, with nominations and appointments to both, and my up-close looks at both SAs have led me to USMA as the best choice for me. I'm just curious if your DS's impressions jibed with mine, especially in the nuances of leadership style that I saw at USNA vs what I believe I have seen at USMA.

Caveat: This will be controversial no matter what, and opinions will vary.

But you asked, so here's the not so short version about overnite cadet experiences with upperclassmen:

- USNA underclass was afraid of Upperclassmen, did not respect them, nor desire to emulate them. And spent quite a bit of time essentially hiding from them. Yes, broad statement, but also is very much the impression DS was left with from multiple visits/overnights. Which was somewhat confirmed when my wife and I talked with middies (low & upper) on our visits.

- USMA cadet leadership was respected, and left the impression "I want to be like that future officer" after 1:1's. Again, confirmed by our impressions as parents.

Subjective? Absolutely. Sweeping generalization? For sure. Do we see a difference? Yep, based on exposure we had

The other was the overall vibe, which our whole family picked up on. USMA is pretty much totally focused on making the best officers for the Army they can. (Yes, we drank the Kool-aid) It surfaced in teacher/officer/staff attitudes, and we saw the counter example at USNA. Cadets are the focus. You don't see the posturing in USMA staff like you do at USNA (aviators, marines, squids, etc). They spend more time talking about that and emanating Tom Cruise than their mission.

Do I think USNA is a bad school? No, it's not. Do I consider it 2nd to USMA? In the leadership development area I do.

Some will laugh, but I believe some of this is due to proximity to DC, Brass, and the Yacht Club mindset at Annapolis. In comparison, at WP, the only reason to be there is the mission. George Washington stood there (etc), and the mission continued since. You don't get the transient brass as much. Yes, they rotate through, but it's not a pleasure visit from DC.

This is not intended as a "bash Navy" comment, just personal experiences addressing a specific question. And probably more just something that USMA does particularly well compared to the other academies.
 
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^^^ I'm not going to turn this thread into a discussion of USNA. I'm not going to turn this thread into a discussion of USNA. I'm not going to turn this thread into a discussion of USNA..... :rolleyes:
 
I think you would be hard pressed to find a "bash Navy" thread in the West Point section. You have not been a member very long but that's just not how it's done in this part of the forum. West Point stands on its own merits, no need to deride another service academy.

Understood Dixieland. You're right I am a relatively new member, and I have noticed that the percentage of fact-based and resepctful discussion here is definitely far higher than in the typical internet forum. I just thought it better safe than sorry. :smile:
 
Caveat: This will be controversial no matter what, and opinions will vary.

But you asked, so here's the not so short version about overnite cadet experiences with upperclassmen:

- USNA underclass was afraid of Upperclassmen, did not respect them, nor desire to emulate them. And spent quite a bit of time essentially hiding from them. Yes, broad statement, but also is very much the impression DS was left with from multiple visits/overnights. Which was somewhat confirmed when my wife and I talked with middies (low & upper) on our visits.

- USMA cadet leadership was respected, and left the impression "I want to be like that future officer" after 1:1's. Again, confirmed by our impressions as parents.

Subjective? Absolutely. Sweeping generalization? For sure. Do we see a difference? Yep, based on exposure we had

The other was the overall vibe, which our whole family picked up on. USMA is pretty much totally focused on making the best officers for the Army they can. (Yes, we drank the Kool-aid) It surfaced in teacher/officer/staff attitudes, and we saw the counter example at USNA. Cadets are the focus. You don't see the posturing in USMA staff like you do at USNA (aviators, marines, squids, etc). They spend more time talking about that and emanating Tom Cruise than their mission.

Do I think USNA is a bad school? No, it's not. Do I consider it 2nd to USMA? In the leadership development area I do.

Some will laugh, but I believe some of this is due to proximity to DC, Brass, and the Yacht Club mindset at Annapolis. In comparison, at WP, the only reason to be there is the mission. George Washington stood there (etc), and the mission continued since. You don't get the transient brass as much. Yes, they rotate through, but it's not a pleasure visit from DC.

This is not intended as a "bash Navy" comment, just personal experiences addressing a specific question. And probably more just something that USMA does particularly well compared to the other academies.

Thank you for sharing that, hawk. After my CVW at USNA, I actually did not pick up on a lot of what you relayed about the general environment , probably because I wasn't in tune with the wider location in which USNA sits, although I did pick up on the caste system being very strong at USNA.... my host midshipman said that you wanted to "stay off the upperclassmen's radar" during your plebe year, but I assumed this was likely the case at any SA. He said that it was a lot like being a pledge at a fraternity, with the initiation stuff, and he and his rommate also said there was a certain feeling that once they got out of plebe year they would look forward to messing with plebes. Again, my impression is that this is probably the case everywhere but I got the impression it was pretty unpleasant to my host on a day to day basis as a plebe. My older brother and older sister both go to top / elite colleges (one Ivy, one a top school outside Boston), and I've gotten into those and a few others in addition to USMA and USNA, and clearly the all-around caliber of the students at both SAs is more impressive to me than the majority of the kids I've met on overnights at my siblings' schools. Thanks again, hawk.
 
Any advice on convincing parents regarding an overnight visit? I have visited usna and usafa (summer seminars) but did not visit usma, and I would really,really like to see and feel the campus before reporting on July 2nd.

I guess my predicament is that I am a west coaster, and attempting to travel there in one day, and make it back the next would be a major problem..

Any advice would be appreciated. Congratulations on your dd,ds appointments!
 
I have my overnight in early March. Have not heard anything about details (no email, etc). Should I have heard by now? I realize that I will likely have to call admissions for this, but just in case others are also interested...




I don't recall the option to request upperclassman vs plebe -- maybe that was something to do via the 'comments' section -- but I plan to accept whatever I get since i can see the benefits of both and will simply plan to seek out plebes if I am with a firstie, and vice versa.

Plebes are given by default as candidate escorts while Yearlings escort parents giving them a tour and Cows conduct briefs before the tour to candidates and their parents.

You have the option of requesting any cadet individually to give you a tour. I highly suggest shadowing a Plebe but also to interact with all classes and ask questions to the upperclassmen about their hindsight on the whole experience.
 
Plebes are given by default as candidate escorts while Yearlings escort parents giving them a tour and Cows conduct briefs before the tour to candidates and their parents.

You have the option of requesting any cadet individually to give you a tour. I highly suggest shadowing a Plebe but also to interact with all classes and ask questions to the upperclassmen about their hindsight on the whole experience.

Thanks AF. I will follow your advice here. One side concern: Do I in any way expose my plebe host to issues if I seek out upperclassmen or ask him to do so on my behalf? I know there are 'fraternization' limits, but I assume that Overnights work like any EC where such restrictions are set aside. I'll ask my drag/host directly, but would appreciate your take on it.

Edit: Just realized that maybe fraternization does not apply to execution of duties, and hosting me counts as that, so my concerns there are unwarranted.
 
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Do I in any way expose my plebe host to issues if I seek out upperclassmen or ask him to do so on my behalf?

Simpleman,

From what my son tells me, one of the pluses for the plebes who host candidates is that they are released from a lot of the plebe rules (not talking, cupping hands, etc.). So I think it's actually nice for them and relieves pressure rather than creating more.
 
Stephanie,

You might invite one or both parents to accompany you and make a little vacation out of it. You definitely can't plan on flying out one day and back the next- you'll need at least 1 more day in there as the visit begins at 8 a.m. and no airport is super close to the campus. Your parents may be concerned about transportation, hotel stay etc. by yourself- if they come they need not worry.

West Point is a beautiful place with lots for them to do while you are occupied. And speaking as a parent, nothing got me on board with my son's ambitions more powerfully than being on post and seeing the cadets in action.

I hope you (and maybe them) can make the visit- keep us posted!
 
Thanks AF. I will follow your advice here. One side concern: Do I in any way expose my plebe host to issues if I seek out upperclassmen or ask him to do so on my behalf? I know there are 'fraternization' limits, but I assume that Overnights work like any EC where such restrictions are set aside. I'll ask my drag/host directly, but would appreciate your take on it.

Edit: Just realized that maybe fraternization does not apply to execution of duties, and hosting me counts as that, so my concerns there are unwarranted.

By no means go door to door asking questions but if any upperclassmen are nearby such as during lunch or formations then by all means ask them. If you talk to your host and tell them what you're looking for (ie. someone from Texas, someone in the fencing team, someone majoring in Psychology, etc) they will be more than happy to find them for you and introduce you to them to start off a conversation.

They are there to help you learn as much about West Point as possible. Speak to teachers, plebes, upperclassmen, and even other candidates you may come accross to learn as much as possible. Your Plebe won't get in trouble and if you're ever in doubt just ask them if something is acceptable.

PS: While not expected, snacks or some kind of treat for your host is always greatly appreciated. :wink:
 
Something to keep in mind when visiting this time of year . . . my son visited late March and was completely shaken by th experience. He really liked the plebe who hosted him, but he felt like all the plebes he talked to were incredibly negative and cynical. (His host actually emailed him afterward to apologize for being so negative about WP.) Several told him that if they had to do it all over again, they would have gone to a civilian college. When he came back from his visit, he was really torn about what to do(and he had been 100% committed to West Point before th visit). At the time, I even sought advice here about how we should proceed. Here's the thread: http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=5647

Fast forward-- he is now a cow and happy as can be. He has said-- with the benefit of experience-- that his visit had been at the worst possible time– when everyone was sick of the cold, gray weather and sick of being plebes.

Just a thought . . .
 
PS: While not expected, snacks or some kind of treat for your host is always greatly appreciated. :wink:

:thumb: Little did I know that buying lots of Easter candy as a thank-you to my cadet's overnight host was my first experience with Boodle!
 
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