Too True. I live in Naptown and work in DC a block from the White House....not very far away at all.
USNA Mid sentenced for stealing lab equipment
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Too True. I live in Naptown and work in DC a block from the White House....not very far away at all.
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One is in New York (Long Island), one is right between Boston and New York, and one is just north of NYC.
I would hardly call any of that "middle of no where".
I do however love the city of Annapolis, something I can't say about New London, Kings Point, West Point of Colorado Springs.
I would hardly call any of that "middle of no where".
I do however love the city of Annapolis, something I can't say about New London, Kings Point, West Point of Colorado Springs.
Luigi59
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That might have been the case in 1975, when a local cub reporter from the Daily Planet might have been the only one covering what was happening at West Point of Air Force, but this is the Age Of Information.
When/if drug busts, child porn, and theft cases happen at the other academies or SMCs they make the news just as they do in the small sleepy town of Annapolis.
(example - the QB of The Citadel was arrested yesterday for ARMED ROBBERY)
They just don't seem to happen as often as they have recently at USNA.
"right between" Boston and New York, but a couple of hours to each right? I used to drive from Maryland to Rhode Island a lot when I was a kid (have family near Providence), and USCGA isn't really the suburbia for Boston or NYC. I think we still had an hour to get to Providence at New London/Groton, and Boston is yet another hour or so north of that. I'll grant you that civilization isn't that far away.
WP maybe 45 mins or an hour north of NYC, but it is worlds away. I would agree with Kero that WP is in the middle of nowhere....just easier access to get to somewhere. I mean, people in Manhattan consider New Jersey the middle of nowhere, so it's all relative
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Annapolis isn't exactly close to DC. Takes me 45 mins to 1 hour to get to BWI from my house right off of I-495. Annapolis is beyond that...I would say 1.25 or 1.5 hours, including some of those I-295 choke points (that I hate and every time I drive to BWI assume I might just get by without traffic, but never do.)
I go from Annapolis to DC daily during the week. 20 mins on Route 50 and a 25 minute metro ride from New Carrollton.
"right between" Boston and New York, but a couple of hours to each right? I used to drive from Maryland to Rhode Island a lot when I was a kid (have family near Providence), and USCGA isn't really the suburbia for Boston or NYC. I think we still had an hour to get to Providence at New London/Groton, and Boston is yet another hour or so north of that. I'll grant you that civilization isn't that far away.
WP maybe 45 mins or an hour north of NYC, but it is worlds away. I would agree with Kero that WP is in the middle of nowhere....just easier access to get to somewhere. I mean, people in Manhattan consider New Jersey the middle of nowhere, so it's all relative
West Point gets its "middle of nowhere" title because Highland Falls is such a small town. I grew up 25 minutes away (Northern New Jersey) from West Point, and it happens to sit a couple of miles away from one of the largest metropolitan areas in America, 20+ million people in a 50 mile radius. A good friend of mine just retired from the NYPD and he commuted to Harlem, NYC daily, he lives in Cold Spring, NY, the town across the river from West Point. Oh and please don't say it's easier to get to NYC from the other side....
Another point to be made is: West Point is something like 18,000 acres, Annapolis sits on how many acres?
Back on topic, the USNA is having a slew of problems lately, facts are facts and I could waste time posting the individual cases here but, the only people that would argue, know well of those cases; it's been discussed here to the N'th degree....SSDD
Mom, I know I'm late on the reply, your "Snary comment but not really accurate. This was the result of a criminal investigation by NCIS. Out of Academy hands." response is more inaccurate.
I'm not sure what you mean, snary, but my comment remains accurate. Last time I heard, smoking marijuana is illegal and criminal in most states. Correct me if I'm off base here, but testing positive for drugs on the way in to the Academy is grounds for rejection, true? But as stated earlier and reinforced by the reported outcome, if you can carry a football a couple of yards per play, illegal and criminal activity becomes forgivable. Or, once you're in, testing positive is okay?
Whether your at a party and smoking something you didn't realize was pot, or your mother has fallen on hard times and you needed to steal to make ends meet, both responses to these situations are ILLEGAL AND CRIMINAL in most states including Maryland.
One gets a blind eye turned and the other gets a criminal record. I could be wrong again, but it gives an appearance of a double standard.
I'm not sure what you mean, snary, but my comment remains accurate. Last time I heard, smoking marijuana is illegal and criminal in most states. Correct me if I'm off base here, but testing positive for drugs on the way in to the Academy is grounds for rejection, true? But as stated earlier and reinforced by the reported outcome, if you can carry a football a couple of yards per play, illegal and criminal activity becomes forgivable. Or, once you're in, testing positive is okay?
Whether your at a party and smoking something you didn't realize was pot, or your mother has fallen on hard times and you needed to steal to make ends meet, both responses to these situations are ILLEGAL AND CRIMINAL in most states including Maryland.
One gets a blind eye turned and the other gets a criminal record. I could be wrong again, but it gives an appearance of a double standard.
Just_A_Mom
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Snarky. Your comment was snarky (I thought) and directed, obviously at the "other scandal". Perhaps, however, you are giving the Academy too much credit.
There was a CRIMINAL investigation into the theft.
Once the crime was reported the investigation was out of the Academy's hands and into the jurisdiction of NCIS. I guess, you could say this was out of the Academy's hands from the get-go.
Popping positive is not a criminal investigation - although I can quickly become one if the administration conducts a health and safety inspection as a result and finds the goods.
Folks have a tendency to confuse Honor violations, conduct violations and crimes. They are indeed all handled differently by the Academy and the military.
There was a CRIMINAL investigation into the theft.
Once the crime was reported the investigation was out of the Academy's hands and into the jurisdiction of NCIS. I guess, you could say this was out of the Academy's hands from the get-go.
Popping positive is not a criminal investigation - although I can quickly become one if the administration conducts a health and safety inspection as a result and finds the goods.
Folks have a tendency to confuse Honor violations, conduct violations and crimes. They are indeed all handled differently by the Academy and the military.
Pima
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AM I understanding you correctly, you are saying testing positive does not initiate a criminal investigation unless they find the substance?
From what I know of within the military, the minute that test comes back positive you will be investigated by the military police, and they are the ones that determine whether or not it moves forward, not the Supe or in the military the Wing King.
When Bullet was at Leavenworth, they give all PME students a tour of the prison. The most popular reason for being there...DRUGS and yes, there were cadets at the prison!
FYI for future AF officers every base has what they call the "crack house". You arrive at work one morning and they tell you to report over at this address. You fail it, and the SPs are there to start the interview process right away. Your med records are also there, so they can quickly rule out if you have a false positive due to medication. Military officers who take this seriously are known never to eat anything with Poppy Seeds because their number might be called. Fliers won't even take Nyquil, because of the fear that they might get a false positive and then be hit with self medicating which puts them in a bad position.
In the end of the day you can't split hairs when it comes to the military. You signed on the dotted line, you answered your security questionaire, you are smart enough to get in, then you shouldn't be so dumb to put yourself in that situation. I have absolutely no pity. This is not only an honor code violation, but also a military law violation. If they don't have the strength to remain solid and true to those principles, then what kind of leader will they be? Not a leader I would like to see for the future military.
From what I know of within the military, the minute that test comes back positive you will be investigated by the military police, and they are the ones that determine whether or not it moves forward, not the Supe or in the military the Wing King.
When Bullet was at Leavenworth, they give all PME students a tour of the prison. The most popular reason for being there...DRUGS and yes, there were cadets at the prison!
FYI for future AF officers every base has what they call the "crack house". You arrive at work one morning and they tell you to report over at this address. You fail it, and the SPs are there to start the interview process right away. Your med records are also there, so they can quickly rule out if you have a false positive due to medication. Military officers who take this seriously are known never to eat anything with Poppy Seeds because their number might be called. Fliers won't even take Nyquil, because of the fear that they might get a false positive and then be hit with self medicating which puts them in a bad position.
In the end of the day you can't split hairs when it comes to the military. You signed on the dotted line, you answered your security questionaire, you are smart enough to get in, then you shouldn't be so dumb to put yourself in that situation. I have absolutely no pity. This is not only an honor code violation, but also a military law violation. If they don't have the strength to remain solid and true to those principles, then what kind of leader will they be? Not a leader I would like to see for the future military.
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yes it was snarky for sure and directed at that other incident obsolutely. I didn't try to veil that at all.
I still think there is a lot of confusion when one thinks illegal activity somehow only warrants an 'honor violation'. It only adds confusion for those still trying to figure out what real honor is all about.
So Mom is the lesson learned here, 'if a crime isn't reported, then it didn't take place'? Personally, and I repeat, personally, I think that's a road taken less honorably.
Pima, I don't believe there's a difference when a person is 'at the service academy' as apposed to being 'in the service' either? Is there?
I still think there is a lot of confusion when one thinks illegal activity somehow only warrants an 'honor violation'. It only adds confusion for those still trying to figure out what real honor is all about.
So Mom is the lesson learned here, 'if a crime isn't reported, then it didn't take place'? Personally, and I repeat, personally, I think that's a road taken less honorably.
Pima, I don't believe there's a difference when a person is 'at the service academy' as apposed to being 'in the service' either? Is there?
AF6872
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PIMA is one hundred and ten percent correct. Back in the day when "Operation Golden Flow" was first initiated, around June 1971, a group of us were scheduled for rotation to CONUS. We all went to base medical for a newly initiated urine test before our Freedom Bird home. Two days later Captain X gets a call from base medical. Captain, we screwed up your test and we need a new sample. Please return to medical for a new test. Captain X gets a driver jumps in the jeep and returns to base hospital. Captain X returns to compound about ten hours later. Captain X says it was the worst ten hours of his life. Captain X was told, sorry for the inconvenience and step into the next room and they would get with him right away. The next room was an MP convention. He was questioned for ten hours as to why he tested positive, where he got the drugs and how long he had been using while directing aircraft in a combat environment?
As the smallest units on base our officers roomed with the doctors assigned to base hospital. Captain X had a cold, flu or maybe NSU "Officers get that it is not an enlisted condition". Doctor roommate had given him some pills. The medication was not on his medical records. Doctor was called in for questioning and finally they believed everyone involved. This was not kicked to his Squadron Commander or even the Base Commander. It was treated as a criminal offense not an Article 15 hearing.
As the smallest units on base our officers roomed with the doctors assigned to base hospital. Captain X had a cold, flu or maybe NSU "Officers get that it is not an enlisted condition". Doctor roommate had given him some pills. The medication was not on his medical records. Doctor was called in for questioning and finally they believed everyone involved. This was not kicked to his Squadron Commander or even the Base Commander. It was treated as a criminal offense not an Article 15 hearing.
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Questioned by who?
Just_A_Mom
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What's the rest of the story? What did he test positive for? Were criminal charges pressed against him?
was he convicted? sent to the brig?
What was the medication - did he take his buddys Tylenol with codeine (a controlled narcotic)? Or his buddy's penicillin?
Unless there is more compelling evidence that surfaces - such as possession when they find the goods - I have never heard of a prosecution based solely on a urine test.
Maybe it's worth looking for some legal presidence.
What many folks fail to understand - not just related to this case but others as well is that there are distinct differences between a honor violation, conduct offence and a criminal act.
My whole point was a theft was reported. Once that report was made and NCIS stepped in it was out of the Academy's hands. Charges were pressed, the mid received legal counsel while the case proceeded. The Academy administration had no control over this.
was he convicted? sent to the brig?
What was the medication - did he take his buddys Tylenol with codeine (a controlled narcotic)? Or his buddy's penicillin?
Unless there is more compelling evidence that surfaces - such as possession when they find the goods - I have never heard of a prosecution based solely on a urine test.
Maybe it's worth looking for some legal presidence.
What many folks fail to understand - not just related to this case but others as well is that there are distinct differences between a honor violation, conduct offence and a criminal act.
Please explain, I don't know how you came to that conclusion or specifically what you mean.
My whole point was a theft was reported. Once that report was made and NCIS stepped in it was out of the Academy's hands. Charges were pressed, the mid received legal counsel while the case proceeded. The Academy administration had no control over this.
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What many others fail to grasp as well, the Superintendant of an academy is a commanding officer of a unit.
The Superintendant of the Coast Guard Academy reports to the Coast Guard Chief of Staff. He is not only head of an educational institution, but he is also a commanding officer. The Coast Guard Academy has CGIS agents attached to it. Because it is "criminal" does not mean it just jumps out of the hands of the commanding officer.
Just a reminder, as many fail to remember those dual hats, and the power vested in a commanding officer, especially one wearing anywhere between one and three stars.
The Superintendant of the Coast Guard Academy reports to the Coast Guard Chief of Staff. He is not only head of an educational institution, but he is also a commanding officer. The Coast Guard Academy has CGIS agents attached to it. Because it is "criminal" does not mean it just jumps out of the hands of the commanding officer.
Just a reminder, as many fail to remember those dual hats, and the power vested in a commanding officer, especially one wearing anywhere between one and three stars.
Pima
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Very true LITS, not only for any SA, but for every post or base. Just because the police have gotten involved does not mean that it is now only on their desk and the commander has wiped their hands clean of it,
I have seen commanders sweep crap under the rug, because they don't want that mark on their watch, and I have seen them go full barrels to make a POINT out of the military member. They are the commander and the police report to them!
As far as the narcotics, JAM you are correct, nobody has ever been prosecuted, but that does not mean they just stop looking or building a case. These cases can be left open for a very long time, and even if you are found innocent without charges ever being brought, that mark will follow you forever!
Officers will receive OERs in specific intervals, that cloud will be reflected in your OER, your job at your squadron may be affected, a PCS may not occur. It is not just about facing a trial. There is a lot of gray areas regarding the military.
I have seen commanders sweep crap under the rug, because they don't want that mark on their watch, and I have seen them go full barrels to make a POINT out of the military member. They are the commander and the police report to them!
As far as the narcotics, JAM you are correct, nobody has ever been prosecuted, but that does not mean they just stop looking or building a case. These cases can be left open for a very long time, and even if you are found innocent without charges ever being brought, that mark will follow you forever!
Officers will receive OERs in specific intervals, that cloud will be reflected in your OER, your job at your squadron may be affected, a PCS may not occur. It is not just about facing a trial. There is a lot of gray areas regarding the military.
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Okay, I think I've missed something here...I've re-read all the posts...but I'm missing something.
But, the point of my comment, was this statement: "...Unless there is more compelling evidence that surfaces - such as possession when they find the goods - I have never heard of a prosecution based solely on a urine test. Maybe it's worth looking for some legal presidence."
In my career I have sat on 12 courts martial. MOST were for drugs, and if memory serves, ALL were detected during a "random" test procedure; commonly referred to as "Golden Flow."
I remember several of these VERY well because of the pleas of family members, friends, etc., that he/she would NEVER use drugs, the AF was too big a part of their life, etc...etc...
And NONE of these folks (no, ONE did) had possession, etc., when arrested, and then charged. They were all identified by urine testing alone.
And they were all convicted.
Why?
Because you sit through the most detailed briefing, typically by a DOD PhD from the testing facility, that goes into great detail explaining the testing procedures, the "chain of custody" requirements, the levels of the various drugs that MUST be present to signal a positive result, etc...etc... They go into great detail about GC/MS (Gas Chromatography, Mass Spectroscopy) and how the metabolites of the drugs are read in the system, etc.
One of the more interesting things to me was at what level the positive was set at. I don't remember precisely but say the cocaine level was 100.0 nanograms. The initial test of the urine says "potential positive" so its segregated and then tested more precisely, and that says "potential positive" so then it goes to the GC/MS for analysis.
The GC/MS reads the actual metabolite (formed in the tissues, you have to have ingested the drug for this to show) and it reads 99.9987989 nanograms.
THAT IS A NEGATIVE AND IS DESTROYED. Why? Because it didn't reach 100.0
And then they go through the "folks are concerned about poppy seeds and the positive read" and they explain that the GC/MS will determine poppy seeds vs illicit drugs. I came away from all this convinced that a false positive really isn't a player once it reaches the GC/MS test.
Is it perfectly flawless and impossible of error? I suppose not because I know of nothing that is. But it convinced me and I started eating poppyseed bagels again and I have been tested TOO many times in my career. Never been positive.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
But, the point of my comment, was this statement: "...Unless there is more compelling evidence that surfaces - such as possession when they find the goods - I have never heard of a prosecution based solely on a urine test. Maybe it's worth looking for some legal presidence."
In my career I have sat on 12 courts martial. MOST were for drugs, and if memory serves, ALL were detected during a "random" test procedure; commonly referred to as "Golden Flow."
I remember several of these VERY well because of the pleas of family members, friends, etc., that he/she would NEVER use drugs, the AF was too big a part of their life, etc...etc...
And NONE of these folks (no, ONE did) had possession, etc., when arrested, and then charged. They were all identified by urine testing alone.
And they were all convicted.
Why?
Because you sit through the most detailed briefing, typically by a DOD PhD from the testing facility, that goes into great detail explaining the testing procedures, the "chain of custody" requirements, the levels of the various drugs that MUST be present to signal a positive result, etc...etc... They go into great detail about GC/MS (Gas Chromatography, Mass Spectroscopy) and how the metabolites of the drugs are read in the system, etc.
One of the more interesting things to me was at what level the positive was set at. I don't remember precisely but say the cocaine level was 100.0 nanograms. The initial test of the urine says "potential positive" so its segregated and then tested more precisely, and that says "potential positive" so then it goes to the GC/MS for analysis.
The GC/MS reads the actual metabolite (formed in the tissues, you have to have ingested the drug for this to show) and it reads 99.9987989 nanograms.
THAT IS A NEGATIVE AND IS DESTROYED. Why? Because it didn't reach 100.0
And then they go through the "folks are concerned about poppy seeds and the positive read" and they explain that the GC/MS will determine poppy seeds vs illicit drugs. I came away from all this convinced that a false positive really isn't a player once it reaches the GC/MS test.
Is it perfectly flawless and impossible of error? I suppose not because I know of nothing that is. But it convinced me and I started eating poppyseed bagels again and I have been tested TOO many times in my career. Never been positive.
Steve
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Yep. I've taken that route many times while getting out to National Airport.
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Actually, it did.
It did NOT, however, reach 100.000.
Proper rounding is a pet peave of mine after losing too many points on too many quizzes and tests for it.
