USNA Mids describe smooth transition from 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by Luigi59, May 20, 2012.

  1. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Anti-gay comments 'not cool ... anymore'
    May 19, 2012|By Matthew Hay Brown, The Baltimore Sun


    That last part was the key argument for so long against repealing the policy, and clearly those fears were unfounded.

    :cool:
     
  2. temp

    temp Member

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    This has largely been my experience. Among my peers I have developed closer bonds and better relationships as well as that fierce protection mentioned in the article. My assignment now is more among junior personnel, and while I have those same concerns about being among more senior ranking officers and their behavior, I've heard 10 good stories for every bad one for my other GLB friends in the military. However, there are still some communities within the service which are having more quiet struggles with adjusting due to the entrenched culture....the problem being the GLB officers in those fields are fearful of coming out, making the exposure, which is key to the culture change, difficult. Again though, overall I've had overwhelmingly positive experiences since repeal. My life is so much better now. :)
     
  3. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Any difficulties resulted from the Administration dropping it on the services without working the details.


    I wouldn't expect a bunch of kids in an academic setting feeling the less attractive transition issues though.
     
  4. SamAca10

    SamAca10 Ensign - DWO

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  5. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    Which difficulties?
     
  6. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Berthing for one. Benefits for another. You're gay and underway, congrats. Now can you and your partner receive the same benefits as straight couples?


    Not yet.


    I sat in on the DOD traveling advisory panel/working group with the Lt. Gen and SES who headed it up.... it was clear there was some frustration with the process. It was done with the concern being political. Now maybe they (the Administration) iron it out later, but there's more loose ends they need to tie, so it's not quite the CF it started out as...
     
  7. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    Got it....second and third order effects, I wasn't sure what you meant by difficulties. Yes, the repeal of DADT is only one part of the puzzle.
     
  8. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Berthing? Seriously? Pretty sure that falls into the "we made up a problem to fit our own prejudices" category.

    Benefits - do straight couples who are not married receive benefits? didn't think so.
     
  9. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Sigh. Seriously? Again, do you have ANY practical experience in dealing with military leadership?

    As to LITS's points, both are valid. Straight servicemembers have a right to be berthed in areas where they feel safe and unimposed upon by sexual practices of others. Do we allow gay servicemembers to bunk together? Do we not, and risk the issues of supposing that gay servicemembers will automatically engage in sex and thus ban them from berthing together? Lots of gray areas there.

    As to the second point, brilliant deduction. Unmarried straight couples don't get benefits. Now think past the surface. LITS was making the point that there are gay couples who are married. Do their spouses get benefits? Why not? That's one of the big problems of basing of basing federal benefits on a state institution (marriage), especially one that isn't uniformly adopted or recognized.

    Instead of assuming that everyone is a prejudiced homophobe, consider the fact that some folks have experience dealing with both the difficulties of making sure gay servicemembers are respected and treated equally without trampling on the sensibilities of heterosexual servicemembers, and from that experience they know what questions come up...
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    This subject of their rights has always been part of the firestorm. If we, as a nation do not recognize homosexual marriage, homosexual couples will not have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

    We can all pretend that this doesn't exist, but it does, worse yet, because we have left it up to the states to recognize homosexual unions, the military has a bigger problem.

    When a member enrolls their spouse, they do not show a 1040 tax return, they show a valid marriage certificate. Some members will not be eligible for base housing, medical, dental, commissary, etc., because their state does not recognize homosexual marriages. Now you will have some that can live on base in married housing and some that cannot. Some spouses will be able to see the base/post doc., and some will not even have Tri-Care at all.

    As scout stated this is not a homophobe issue, this is a logistical issue due to the unique military environment.

    JAM if you think berthing is a straw man's argument, than please defend why we shouldn't just berth women with men. What makes women special enough to be berthed with only women? Was it to remove the temptation of sexual conduct?
     
  11. SamAca10

    SamAca10 Ensign - DWO

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    I feel like this is going to be a bigger issue amongst the enlisted ranks than the officer corps. Especially due to issues like berthing.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    In the AF, when you get deployed you will share rooms as officers(2-4+) until you make a certain rank. The 4th FW has deployed every yr since the 90's for 4-6 month rotations every 18 months. Plus, they also do TDY's to Cope Thunder, Red Flag, etc.. On top of that they take the planes to safety for Hurricanes. The rules apply to all of those situations.

    Look at Stealth's DS. LAFB did not have enough Q's for his DS's UPT class. AF decided to take 4 guys and place them into a base house as their quarters. UPT is @ 1 yr long.
     
  13. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Under the "Full Faith And Credit Clause" of the Constitution (Article IV, Section I), any state's marriage license (surely a public act, record, and judicial proceeding, right?) cannot be denied by another state.

    Any other interpretation (including the DOMA) is (and will be found to be when challenged) unconstitutional.

    Not to mention the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, which is also is being violated when equal protection isn't given to gay married couples.
     
  14. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    As much as I enjoy barracks lawyering myself, if I recall, the full faith and credit clause does not universally apply. Concealed carry permits are a good example. Not all states have reciprocity.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  15. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Luigi - yep the marriage issue will be solved within the next few years.


    Berthing - just another *excuse* as to why change cannot occur. Gays and lesbians currently berth with straight people of their own sex. No reason for this to change.
    However, I can see where eventually there may be co-ed berthing in some cases. Not a big deal at all. Many college have co-ed rooms in co-ed dorms with co-ed bathrooms. I have two kids running around Europe right now sleeping in *horrors* co-ed dorms in hostels.
    The problem is the military culture- one that is resistant to change and insistent on maintaining the status quo - one that encourages and enables a homophobic and misogynistic culture.

    Those in military leadership - the operative word here being LEADERSHIP - should start leading and stop making up problems where none occur. Scoutpilot.
     
  16. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    ...she said, with her vast knowledge of military culture and years of leadership. :rolleyes:

    Wow, they have coed rooms in college? I don't know why I didn't equate what works at college into what would work in a military environment. How did we miss this?

    If it works at college, it'll certainly work in the military. I'll be sure to engage in that leadership you mentioned right after I get done picking up the Jaegermeister shot machine and decide which girls are going to serve liquor dressed in their bras and panties. I mean, hey, it works on college campuses, it'll work in the military, right? They're practically interchangeable.

    Honestly, I think you have some serious beef with the military and I'm not sure why. You do have a child in the military, correct?
     
  17. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Out of curiosity how do you see that happening. President Obama has stated he supports gay marriage, but will leave it up to the state's decision to recognize it.

    NC just a few weeks ago sent a resounding NO WAY will that happen in our state. I think the tally was 65% voted against gay marriage. If I recall that made them the 30th state in the nation to vote against it. NC is a huge military installation state. The closest state you could get married in is MD. Most of these states not only ban marriage, but also some types of same sex unions.

    Unless we make it federal it can't be solved. I am pro homosexual marriage. There was a court case that recently made news in VA. The couple was married in a state where it was recognized(CA before it banned it again), but when they decided to divorce they lived in VA, the courts did not recognize the marriage. The problem came around because of custodial issues and spousal support. In the end one partner lost big time.

    Most of the leadership now are not the way you are perceiving the resistance to change. They all acknowledge there have always been homosexuals and they are not homophobic. They couldn't care one iota who lays in bed next to their brethren at night, just as long when bullets start flying they are there ready to defend.

    The change issue is not and never will be about sex, it is about logistics in the military environment that is not tied to the duty day, but tied to the benefits that ALL military members receive. Medical, housing, Pay (PCS, and BAH), TMO shipments, life insurance, etc.

    Every yr. each and every military AD member receives a lovely form letter illustrating what their salary would be equivalent to in the corporate world. Guess what? The items I just listed are line items on the form letter with dollar signs assigned to each item. It comes up to not a few hundred bucks, but thousands for single members, and tens of thousands for married.

    This is not a straw man argument. It is fact. Tuesday USNA graduates, and some of those mids will get married this week. MD recognizes same sex marriage. They will be entitled minute one to base housing because all you do is show the marriage license as proof. Great for them, and I mean that, but ERAU is a huge NROTC unit, along with TAMU, PSU, UND, etc. not one of those mids will be able to get base housing, or joint assignments unless they go and get married in 1 of the 8 states that recognize the marriage. Are you starting to see how morale can be impacted if we do what our President wants to do, which is leave it up to the states? Can you imagine working in the personnel office and having to pull up the states to see if it the state is allowing marriage, or is it a union...2 different things for each and everyone. Yes, that is trivalizing the issue regarding more work, but the point is, unless they state any and every homosexual should have every and all rights as a heterosexual it is going to be a problem.

    OBTW, I am only speaking for the AF right now, but they are no way misogynistic.

    Col. Jeannie Flynn
    http://articles.latimes.com/1994-02-16/news/mn-23582_1_air-force
    I linked that so you can see the date...it is almost 2 decades ago. Jeannie is now the Wing Queen at SJAFB (F-15E). BG select.

    Lt.Col Nicole Malachowski aka Fifi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Malachowski
    That perception left the building decades ago in the AF. If you do the math, Fifi was about 30 when she was selected for the Thunderbirds. Like anything in the flying community, there is a lot of training, and before you get that Number position you come in as a narrator. Fifi, is a great pilot and deserved it, but if it was misogynistic world, they would have never given her the assignment 1st shot out. There are many who apply yr after yr.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  19. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    It is going to take a Federal Court case (and likely the SCOTUS) to invalidate DOMA.

    I rarely state my opinions on these forums, but it is going to be very challenging for me, as a leader, to look into a homosexual Sailor's eyes when deployment or a long underway period rolls around, knowing that that Sailor's significant other is going to have complications in being taken care of, in contrast to heterosexuals. The LAST THING I think anyone in our military wants is to have an individual lose focus on the task (mission) at hand; this normally happens when there are "family issues" at home that cannot be readily taken care of and the DOMA law is another wrench in this complicated matter. I realize that homosexuals have been living like this for many years, but in an institution that values honor and integrity, as ADM Mullen explained it in his DADT viewpoint, it seems like treating one group of servicemembers (and their families) differently based solely on sexual orientation isn't an honorable thing to do. I know that one of the lines in my job description is to ensure the wellness and readiness of those under my charge.
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree with you jadler.

    I know when Bullet did his Army tours as an AF officer they have a great communication chain. When Bullet was with the 82nd, I was given an "official" tree list to send messages down with, and Bullet gave me an "unofficial" list too. They were the S.O., GF, and fiances.

    It is hard because that is left to the discretion of the ranking officer regarding disseminating the information.

    However, as you stated this is a problem from an AD perspective. Spouses will be briefed,at least for the AF, typically they round them up like cattle and give a mass briefing of things such as, where to go for pay issues, family problems etc. S.O.'s will not be invited to this and they must rely on 2nd hand information. This creates the telephone game like when we were kids. It creates more problems than anyone can imagine. Worse when it is no-notice deployments. As a spouse that was a FC, ADO wife in the AF, my phone rang off the wall non-stop, because some spouse told a SO their version of what was stated and now they were in fear.

    Finally, we haven't even touched on one of the big issues...joint assignments. In the AD world, they will try their hardest to post married military members in the same theater.

    Think about it this way.
    2 homosexual Army officers meet at Ft. Hood Tx, day 1 of their 3 yr assignment. One is from FL., 1 is from Wyoming. They fall in love, 2 yrs later both are up for PCS. Decide to get married so they can get a jt assignment. The closest state they can do this in is 1000's of miles away. This also causes an issue because they need to check with the state and the personnel office to see if it is doable.

    The heterosexual couple in this same scenario would be able to marry in Fl, Wy, and Tx.

    It is great to live in Utopia, but the military is not a state of Utopia.

    Do I want to see it changed? Yes, but it is not the job of the military to force the govt to do the right thing.

    I give Obama credit for supporting homosexual marriage, but he loses points fo placing the burden on the states. I did not vote for Obama in 08, and I am not a Mitt fan, but if Obama had come out and stated gay marriage on a federal platform, I would have an Obama sign in my front yard yesterday. This inaction on a federal level has created more problems IMPO from an AD military perspective.
     

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