USNA vs. UPenn (Wharton) NROTC

I don't really have a problem with having the OP as a class mate, though you may have worded your initial posts rather abrasively (to some). I think that plenty of people leave the service after their 5 year commitment, and I guarantee that some of those people were the kids that went in "with their heart set on being a Navy/USMC officer." I'd be willing to bet that there are also a few "I want to get out ASAP" kids at USNA that end up being Admirals or Generals. You really can't tell what you're going to think a decade from now when your initial commitment is up.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with looking at all the options with a decision like college.
 
@LongAgoPlebe
I understand that promotions don't happen all the time, but isn't the pay during active duty as an officer good? USNA advertises it as if it is good. I think I read that USNA's average starting salary as an officer is 77k?
& I did two CVW's at USNA, but yet to do an overnight at Penn NROTC. I will definitely look into that.

Ha! You definitely won't make bank as an Ensign. Base pay for a newly minted Ensign is $2905.00 per month. That's just under $35K per year. See a full chart here: http://www.navycs.com/charts/2014-military-pay-chart.html#officer-pay-chart
 
ascothink - The pay is not "fabulous." Here's a 2014 pay table. Note that it's base salary. Most new grads do pretty well on that salary, and you get a pretty decent bump after two years when you make O-2.

None the less, it's not going to be the 150K that many 22-year-olds think they're going to earn!
 
ascothink - The pay is not "fabulous." Here's a 2014 pay table. Note that it's base salary. Most new grads do pretty well on that salary, and you get a pretty decent bump after two years when you make O-2.

None the less, it's not going to be the 150K that many 22-year-olds think they're going to earn!

You won't be making anything close to $77K until you're 5-10 years in. Yes, some of your salary isn't taxed, so you may SEE more than you would expect for that kind of money... but if you're looking for making big bucks while you're serving, you'll have a few dacades to wait.

Also note, most 22 year olds aren't making $150K. In fact, most 52 year olds aren't making $150K.

In all honesty, this isn't the 1960s and 1970s, where guys like Lou Ranieri are joinging firms out of high school, and then working from the back rooms to eventually become partners of firms. MAYBE there are some exceptions to that, but it's certainly not the norm.

In general, a bachelor's degree won't be enough. Wall Street is littered with service academy graduates. Maybe they aren't the norm (hint: being a service academy grad will never put you "in the norm"), but the opportunities exist.

The "stepping stone" to those more lucrative jobs these days are MBAs (or pushing through crap before a bubble pops... but that's risky).

I don't have an MBA. I have an MPS. For what I do, I didn't really need a master's, but, eh, what the heck, it can only help, and I did enjoy it. So, considering I DO like my master's, most would agree that an MBA is the most useful master's degree out there.

But, as the demand for MBAs has gone up, so has the supply. It also matters, in many cases, where your MBA is from. Top 10 programs like Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Warton, Chicago... etc. give you a better MBA leg to stand on than other business schools.

Once you graduate from a service academy, and do some time serving, that bachelor's program can present some doors, but you have to open them.

And then, there are of course other options, besides banking.... such being a lawyer on Wall Street.

The financial community is VAST... not just bankers (and don't forget, there are different kinds).... analysts, accountants, auditors, lawyers, and on and on.

There are many service academy graduates who make their way into this community, or related communities, or business in general.
 
I wonder, what was it that you wrote in your admissions essays? What did you say in your interviews? I'm sure at some point you've been asked why the academy over some other route. Did you own up to the fact that you think it would look more impressive on your resume, that you're using it to get ahead in life after you finish your commitment? If you did, so be it, but if that's the case I'm a little shocked you got in. And that is the fault of the admissions process.

Here's the honest to god opinion for someone who has been here for a year and a half. Based on your post, I do not think you would do well here. The impression I got from it was not positive and frankly it left a foul taste in my mouth. People with attitudes like yours get eaten alive here. You will come off as thinking you're better than your peers, and no one will want to work with you. And trust me, you CANNOT get through this place on your own. If you do come here, your detailers WILL ask you why you're here. Of course you could make up some motivated sounding answer, but if you tell them your true intentions like an honorable person would, you WILL become your company's **** screener. I can tell you that right now.

I want to make myself clear. I have no problem with people who intend on the five and dive. A career is certainly not for everyone. I do have a problem with people who want to use the academy to to achieve their own selfish goal. And yes, I do think if someone's main goal in life is to "make bank" it's a bit selfish.

If you want an honest opinion, here you go. Please, do not come to my school.
 
@BCHuff09
Thanks for understanding me man. I think a lot people at some point in their life will regret an important decision they made when they were younger. I'm just considering all my options.
 
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Here's what I think.

You seem very self-aware. You also seem very honest - almost to a fault. You have said some things in your original post that you had to know would raise the hackles of many in this forum. Having any reservations about attending the Naval Academy or indicating, in any way, that you have some goal other than being a career naval officer is always going to get you a fair share of "hate mail". :)

Nonetheless, you strike me as somebody who can adapt and excel. I think you'll do well whatever you decide to do.

Plenty of people attend the Naval Academy for less than the purist of reasons (as you've indicated). I know - because I was one of those kids! During my four years at the Naval Academy I matured, adapted and ended up embracing the experience. Although I probably entered for all the wrong reasons, I stayed and served for all the right reasons. As it turned out, the Naval Academy was the perfect school for me. Who knew? I didn't! But, apparently, the admissions department did. Sometimes the Naval Academy sees something in a candidate that the candidate does not see in themselves.

I just had twin sons who recently graduated from USNA. I do not think they were all that gung-ho in attending. They, too, adapted and excelled. The Naval Academy has a way of doing that to young people.

Choose whichever one you want. My guess is that you will do well, either way. The school is not going to make you successful or cause you to reach your goals - it's going to be you.
 
@LineInTheSand
Thank you, that was very informative and helpful. Do you know if NROTC at an Ivy League has the same (or better) effect?
 
And yes, I do think if someone's main goal in life is to "make bank" it's a bit selfish.

Please, do not come to my school.

And yet, alumni associations will love you if you made bank. And cadets and midshipmen have gained far more from "banked" alumni than "didn't make ****" alumni.

That said, if going to an academy is just a point of a resume for you, classmates and others will "smell" it. And it will make things more difficult for you.

To Pleber, I recommend ridding yourself of the "my school" line, early. I understand it. I used to think it. But at some point I realized it wasn't "my" academy and more than it was my swabs or their swabs or their swabs. It wasn't any less my school than it was my cadre or their cadre or their cadre. It wasn't my "right" to say "you should or shouldn't be here." It was my job to challenge them, sure, and sometimes that challenge had folks reassess their motivations or interests. You "rent" your time there, and in the process, you gain a family. You leave, and it's someone else's to screw up or build or whatever else. It makes it easier, now, to stop thinking about it as "your school" and that you are the final gate keeper. You will see too many people you respect or looked up to fail there to think, in the end, you knew who should or shouldn't be there, or who would or wouldn't make a good officer.
 
@LineInTheSand
Thank you, that was very informative and helpful. Do you know if NROTC at an Ivy League has the same (or better) effect?

I don't think it's the NROTC AT the Ivy League that's having the effect, as much as the Ivy League association itself.
 
@pleber16
Yeah actually I did. I told them of my initial goals, and about how I wanted to five and dive. I was perfectly honest in my essays/interviews.
If I attend USNA, I can guarantee to you that I will excel. I know you may think I'm obnoxious and can only work on my own, but that is completely relative to the situation and will not be true if I attend USNA.
I admire your honor and integrity. You will lead in our country's Navy as a great officer.
Just a tip: don't be so bitter. Great leaders are good at understanding.
 
@LineInTheSand
Would you consider the effect better than USNA in the business world?
 
@Memphis9489
Thank you so much for your input. I too believe that I will adapt well wherever I go. If that happens to be USNA, I know that I will adapt well there and grow to love the school. If I may ask: what is the response from your surrounding community when you tell them you graduated from USNA? Would the response in the business world be positive?
 
@pleber16
Yeah actually I did. I told them of my initial goals, and about how I wanted to five and dive. I was perfectly honest in my essays/interviews.
If I attend USNA, I can guarantee to you that I will excel. I know you may think I'm obnoxious and can only work on my own, but that is completely relative to the situation and will not be true if I attend USNA.
I admire your honor and integrity. You will lead in our country's Navy as a great officer.
Just a tip: don't be so bitter. Great leaders are good at understanding.

Just a tip: don't be so arrogant, I'm sure that attitude won't carry you very far (especially with people who may be in charge of you one day).
 
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A lot of good advice here. If your goal (at least initially) is not to be the best Naval (or USMC) officer you can be, go to Penn or some other civilian university. You don't have to stay in the Service forever, but you need the right mindset going in or you will be miserable.

As a BGO, I have never held it against any candidate if they tell the truth that they don't know if they want a career. There are plenty of very good graduates that serve five years, make their mark as a Naval Officer and contribute to the service, then move on to other pursuits. However, all I ask is that they keep an open mind, and have a firm committment to do the best they can at USNA and in the Service.

Like several above, I was initially taken back by the statement of your life objective being "to make bank." If that is your true ambition, go somewhere else. USNA and the Naval Service involves a lot of sacrifice, and you will never make bank while serving.

A little about my perspective -- I went to USNA in the 80's, with the ambition of a military career. I did well at USNA, and along the way met my wife. A few deployments , the changing nature of the Navy (a whole nother topic) , led me to change direction and I got out and went to law school. I have done relatively well, live comfortably and have used the leadership skills that I developed in the Navy to establish a sound practice as well as participate and lead a number of community non-profit organizations. I look back at my Navy days and recognize that alot of what I have accomplished would not have been possible without USNA and my time in the Navy, and I also recognize that some of the best times of my life were while I was in the Navy. I wasn't "making bank", and was often away from home, but I enjoyed what I was doing, enjoyed working with some of the best people I have ever worked with , and knew that I was contributing to defense of the country. To me, those factors were more important than "making bank".
 
I would probably change that from "real" to "ideal." I get what you're saying, but the reality of the situation, for some, is different.

Yes, that's a better word. I understand reality is different for some, but if that's the only reason you're going, I don't put much stock into success. Unfortunately, that means someone else who is more committed didn't get to go. Not saying that this is the case of the original poster! I'm only making a general comment.

In my DD's case, I wanted to ensure she understood what it meant to go to an SA. Very happy to say that she fully understands and is completely committed to pursuing this.
 
Yes, that's a better word. I understand reality is different for some, but if that's the only reason you're going, I don't put much stock into success. Unfortunately, that means someone else who is more committed didn't get to go. Not saying that this is the case of the original poster! I'm only making a general comment.

In my DD's case, I wanted to ensure she understood what it meant to go to an SA. Very happy to say that she fully understands and is completely committed to pursuing this.

The other thing I try to remember is, some really good officers were procuded from those "free education" numbers. Some people end up liking it and making a career out of it. And some people gun-ho don't. Once they enter the gates, all bets are off! :biggrin:
 
I might get some flak for this, buuuttttt.....
ascothink, do what you want bud. It's your appointment, you earned it and it was legally and fairly awarded to you. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a millionaire or five and diving. I don't see how that invalidates your contract at all. Personally, I think the USNA undergrad degree will be alot more influential when it comes to having your say-so listened to, both on a graduate school application and in your meeting with a CEO/COO that'll get you a 7 million dollar+ check deposited in your account.
Sure, you'll have some sensitive, superpatriot classmates that'll think you're a selfish, arrogant jackass. It'll be your responsibility to see their point of view and try to get along with them, and hope they're open minded enough to see and respect your perspective.
I go to school with alot of kids that come from Charleston, Atlanta, and Birmingham old money that attended The Citadel only for networking and a solid undergraduate degree. Others came solely because we were an SMC and wanted to serve. They are 2 very different camps, and while some folks in one will never understand those in the other, we get along fairly well when it comes to all the cadet stuff. Just pull your weight and I'm sure you'll be fine. In reality it's your character that matters a whole lot more than just what you want to be when you grow up, and to be honest, I'd say its a safe bet to assume that the average USNA midshipman is smart and pragmatic enough to respect your perspective and how it does its own good for society.
Military service isn't the holy, ethereal high calling alot of people make it out to be. An academy appointment or an ROTC scholarship doesn't put one in the running for sainthood. Not saying they're not honorable, they sure are given the sacrifices you have to make, but it won't make you a living guardian angel like so many perceive it to be. It's a contract: School in exchange for service. Your character means so much more in terms of what kind of individual you are, and you don't have to be military. And your character is what will determine what kind of classmate you'll be, not your goals, fyi.
I think USNA is the better choice.
 
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