USNA vs. UPenn (Wharton) NROTC

LITS I am not saying it converts into 100K as an O3, but you'd be amazed at the amount of taxes people pay in NJ.
~RE taxes are on par with MD. My Mom owns a 1500 sqft home in Central Jersey (exit 8 A :shake:) on a postage stamp lot and she pays almost 2x as much as I pay for my 4500+ on 10 acres in No VA. My home is also valued @3x the amount of hers.

In essence, between taxes and the commute (no slugging there) their take home is way less than one may think. My guess would be maybe 60k off a 100k salary. That is my point. The OP is looking at the $ signs without looking deeper. Kind of funny if you think about it...they want to be a banker, but doesn't understand net vs gross. I would also point out that it is common knowledge companies like Merrill Lynch use and abuse new blood....they may say the workday is 8-5, but it is like the Pentagon, the real day is much longer. Remember working at the Pentagon....you were considered late for work if you were there after 7:15, and leaving early at 4:45. Sequestration was a big shocker in that building when the GSs actually worked 8 hr days.:eek: IE what do you mean you won't be at the meeting....it is only 4!

I also was deferring to you regarding the fact that you have been very open and honest regarding your job search when you left, and of course I see you as comparable since you have an SA undergrad and a G'town grad.
~ IE how long did it take, how did you survive financially without your military paycheck?

Nobody here has a crystal ball and can tell the OP what the economy will look like in 5 years let alone a decade from now...can we all say the housing meltdown? Does the OP have a clue what most financial analysts expect to be the next bubble to burst? It will involve banking/loans again...student loan defaults. If it comes to fruition do you think banks will be hiring, or firing again?

I still feel the military is not a match for them because of my signature line. SERVICE BEFORE SELF. I am not sure they are ready to live a life 24/7/365 days a yr. Living, going wherever the Navy says to go, whenever they say go. It is a hard enough when you want to be in, harder when you are on the fence deciding if you want to be serving. Remember, they have the final decision where you live, what your career field will be and how often you will deploy, on top of that the crystal ball comes into effect again. Do you think anyone that commissioned from an SA in 97 saw 9/11 on their radar? Yet, it happened and many got caught in the STOP/LOSS sphere.
 
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some thoughts

Ascothink,

I have a plebe at the naval academy. (In other words I'm just a mom here)
Here are my thoughts.

1. The number one trait that rich people have in common is a drive to "make bank" in essence, it wont matter too much where you chose to go in that sense. You will make or not make connections wherever you go. Some of the wealthiest Americans:
Warren Buffet went to Columbia, Bill Gates dropped out of college, Larry Ellison dropped out of U of Illinois, Shedlon Edelson dropped out of NY City College, Michale Bloomberg went to Harvard but Paul Allen dropped out of Washington State, Jeff Bezos went to Princeton but Harold Hamm didnt go to college, Larry Page went to Stanford but Jack Taylor dropped out of Washu. etc etc

So with regards to where you will make more money in the end, I would say that the Choices that you list are irrelevant.


2. According to my son MANY MANY kids go to usna for financial reasons. Why not? It is in the "marketing materials" and promoted heavily in the BGO/MOC gatherings. Its a HUGE incentive. Its listed by the academy as a top incentive.

3. What will happen to many of the mids there (in my opinion) is that they will drink the Blue and Gold Kool-aid (which I see as a positive NOT a negative) buy into the system, become more patriotic, begin to really WANT/NEED to serve. The school understands this, its practically built into the curriculum. I see this as most of the mids there (again, in my opinion)

4. What will happen to some of the mids there is they will find the entire thing BS, wont be able to stand the need to chop, sir sandwich, shirt stays, uniform races, Mole-ing your bed etc etc. The First Set will chew them up and spit them out. Some may chose to regroup for the Second Set, or they, most likely will Tango Out.

I fear, Ascothink, that you may be in the later group. I am not trying to disrespect you but you need to fully understand that going to USNA is not just a path to serve your country. Its not just a path for a free education it is a TOTALLY different experience for four years. It is completely Not-College. It may seem to be like regular college, after all there are excellent classes and excellent teachers, football games, and pretty decent food. However there is mandatory lights out, PT every single day, mandatory sports time, curfew, weigh ins, room inspection, you cant even chose your underwear. I mean seriously, this is how you go to lunch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIOXHn7Ylzc

I would think long and hard if this is really where you want to be...

Good Luck!
 
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I would also point out that it is common knowledge companies like Merrill Lynch use and abuse new blood....they may say the workday is 8-5, but it is like the Pentagon, the real day is much longer. Remember working at the Pentagon....you were considered late for work if you were there after 7:15, and leaving early at 4:45.

I also was deferring to you regarding the fact that you have been very open and honest regarding your job search when you left, and of course I see you as comparable since you have an SA undergrad and a G'town grad.
~ IE how long did it take, how did you survive financially without your military paycheck?

Ohhhhh, I think the Pentagon must have been going soft by the time I arrived, because 4:30 - 5ish p.m. there was a pretty steady rush out the doors to the Metro and buses, with the start between 8-9 a.m. I wasn't there every day, but when I was, it was usually lunch to closing time... and closing time seemed to be dictated by general D.C. traffic and Metro hours.

I wasn't a G'town grad, I went to GW.

I left in 2011. My terminal leave seems to coincide with a federal hiring freeze. My captain (O-6) told me a GS-13 position was going to open up in the office, and that he would let me know, so I could apply.... but then, with the hiring freeze, it wasn't filled.

I survived six months on savings. My first day as a civilian again was July 1, 2011. I got a job Jan. 17, 2012. I had the offer in December for that job, but it required some DHS clearance, so there was a tiny hold up (despite having a top secret clearance for a DHS component agency.... go figure). I went from something like $55K to $67,500... and I saw less of that than the $55K. That was a combination of changing my legal residence from TN (no state income tax) and not having a BAH.

I didn't like where I ended up, but an opportunity arrose for significantly more money, working for a person I knew, in an industry I had an interest in, at the perfect time.

So I made another move, after about 5 months at the firm. I make more than I would have in the Coast Guard for some time. BUT, I think I was very lucky. Things "lined up" and that's generally not the rule.

$125K looks good in a lot of cities. In New York, this isn't going to go as far as you would expect. I have a broker friend maybe making somewhere between $250K and $500K (I'm guessing, I haven't asked) and she lives in a pretty small place (but not in the worst area) in Manhattan.

But then you come to a place like D.C., and some staffer pulling down $60K has some "power" (yes, it's assumed power, and may not be reality). So much depends on your location and your industry.
 
LITS,

That is what I was referring to regarding transition. GW, G'Town both are amazing schools.

My point was/is SAs/military have a great networking aspect, but you pay the price too. Don't assume that the network will work for you when you want to bolt, especially in the banking industry in NYC.
IE the O6 didn't pan out for you and you were able to do the Beltway speak!

Yes, I believe in the military networking aspect, but I also believe it is not as broad based as it reads on this forum.
~ Want to fly commercial, heck yes.... Our best friend with SWA is always giving references.
~ Want to go Defense, heck yes. Bullet retired because he had a job offer 1 year out. In the end word got out he was retiring and was offered 3 jobs from 3 different defense contract companies. His terminal leave ended Sept 30th, he was at his desk Oct. 1st.
~~~~ Understand he had 20 years in, and very unique attributes. Pentagon experience, joint experience, fighter experience, command experience, Masters and PME in residence. Basically every square was filled.

The OP will have 5 yrs.in. He could be stationed in Washington state as the Accounting and Finance officer. Others in the banking world with an SA can chime in, but are they going to take the guy that is in charge of 15 people processing travel vouchers over the guy that has been with the company for the last 5 yrs. that knows their system just because they have an USNA degree over the UPenn grad?

Can the OP afford to fly back to NY for every interview? It could be 3 or 4 times in a 3 month period.

What if they are at sea in the Pacific?

This is my point when I say they should go UPenn. I just don't believe they have a real clue when it comes to the AD Navy.

I think that reading their background, USNA appears to be financially a better option since UPenn is 60K to attend annually. They have stated that they have a Likely letter, but not if they know whether or not they will get the "free education" like USNA.

JMPO, but that is how I read it. I read it as this is more about paying for college. Sorry.
 
Please join me in reality

I too am thinking the OP is perhaps a troll, and certainly a broken record, at this point. But this thread does bring up a point. For those of you who think the only ‘correct’ reason to attend a service academy is service before self or any other pure-as-the-driven-snow feel-good platitude, please join me in reality where there are lots of folks attending the academies for all the ‘wrong’ reasons. If you are an appointee (or parent of) who is heading to an academy this summer, steel yourself for meeting these individuals, because it sounds like some of you are in for a shock.

Five and divers used to make me mad. Sounds like many of you presently feel this way. I always recall a quote in the excellent Rolling Stone article about USMA many years ago. A grad CPT who was stationed at West Point said something akin to “This places gives you so much and asks for so little in return. I think the payback should be 20 years.” I feel this is true. However, the fact is that the government is only asking for a five year commitment in return. NOW I realize that the five and divers are the smartest ones out there! They realize the amazing opportunity that is being laid out before them. They are already making their plans for law school, Ivy MBAs, etc. for when they get out at the five year mark. They are much more astute than I was at age 18! And good on them for being so.

Let’s not pretend that tons of academy grads aren’t on Wall Street right now making bank. Let’s not pretend that there aren’t numerous ‘captains of industry’ out there that are grads. Let’s not pretend that each academy’s alumni association doesn’t have an amazing network of those in business that you can easily get hooked up with. Let’s not pretend that there aren’t job fairs out there like SACC (Service Academy Career Conferences) where ONLY grads are admitted, because the private sector loves these people to death. Let’s not pretend that having an academy degree doesn’t instantly establish a known pedigree and can open many doors in big business.

People have used the term ‘stepping stone’ in this thread in a negative manner. Please join me in reality where an academy education IS a stepping stone. At some point the grads will leave the service and will then have to provide for themselves and their family. I know lots of academy graduates, and absolutely none of them are on the breadline. Quite the opposite in fact.

Well, by now you know that I am old and jaded. But I live in reality and have been around the system a long time. Having said all that…….to the OP: just go to UPenn already.
 
This Five and Diver agrees.

Have to wonder why the West Pointer said "20 years".... wonder if that 50% retirement was somewhere in his mind or if 20 years was simply a self-less number.

I too am thinking the OP is perhaps a troll, and certainly a broken record, at this point. But this thread does bring up a point. For those of you who think the only ‘correct’ reason to attend a service academy is service before self or any other pure-as-the-driven-snow feel-good platitude, please join me in reality where there are lots of folks attending the academies for all the ‘wrong’ reasons. If you are an appointee (or parent of) who is heading to an academy this summer, steel yourself for meeting these individuals, because it sounds like some of you are in for a shock.

Five and divers used to make me mad. Sounds like many of you presently feel this way. I always recall a quote in the excellent Rolling Stone article about USMA many years ago. A grad CPT who was stationed at West Point said something akin to “This places gives you so much and asks for so little in return. I think the payback should be 20 years.” I feel this is true. However, the fact is that the government is only asking for a five year commitment in return. NOW I realize that the five and divers are the smartest ones out there! They realize the amazing opportunity that is being laid out before them. They are already making their plans for law school, Ivy MBAs, etc. for when they get out at the five year mark. They are much more astute than I was at age 18! And good on them for being so.

Let’s not pretend that tons of academy grads aren’t on Wall Street right now making bank. Let’s not pretend that there aren’t numerous ‘captains of industry’ out there that are grads. Let’s not pretend that each academy’s alumni association doesn’t have an amazing network of those in business that you can easily get hooked up with. Let’s not pretend that there aren’t job fairs out there like SACC (Service Academy Career Conferences) where ONLY grads are admitted, because the private sector loves these people to death. Let’s not pretend that having an academy degree doesn’t instantly establish a known pedigree and can open many doors in big business.

People have used the term ‘stepping stone’ in this thread in a negative manner. Please join me in reality where an academy education IS a stepping stone. At some point the grads will leave the service and will then have to provide for themselves and their family. I know lots of academy graduates, and absolutely none of them are on the breadline. Quite the opposite in fact.

Well, by now you know that I am old and jaded. But I live in reality and have been around the system a long time. Having said all that…….to the OP: just go to UPenn already.
 
I don't think many disagree with you.

Please see my post regarding my husband, Bullet. He was fortunate. As a matter of fact we laughed when his job was converted to GS due to our President's policy. Due to EEO regs it had to be published. Little did those applicants know the position was filled and all this was for them was a futile exercise in submitting a resume. That is the GS system here in DC.

I work for a national company, and they are grooming me for a promotion. Will the job be advertised? Yes, but I am on the inside, and if my credentials are equal to the other candidates, I will feel confident that I am the one offered the job because I am coming in from within the ranks. I know their business. Yes, I have a grad degree, so from an educational perspective I will be on the same footing.....just like the OP will be when he exits the military, except he is the outsider.

Now down to the dirty basics. JMPO, but all I have heard from the OP is the pat answer....I want to serve the country and USNA will make me a leader.

I have yet to read if he gets the commitment that will be expected from for the next decade.

I do not believe that Service before Self is the be all. I just believe that for the next 9 years. Service will come before Self and if you think otherwise, this is probably the wrong path for you.

Grow up in NJ, and you think that Earle, Norfolk, Cherry Pt. will be a no brainer, be prepared for San Diego, Washington state or even TX, heck you might get the blessed Hawaii assignment, or Asia.

What bothers me is this thread is
about his career chances 10 yrs. from now and not what his life will be like for the next decade....hence, those service before self years.
~ Want your cell phone to call your GF....sorry, but NO
~ Want to have a car on campus so you can drive home... sorry, it ain't happening as a the equivalent of a freshmen at Upenn. Same with taking Amtrack back to Jersey.
~ Ready to sleep on top of your sheets? How about eating at attention and at a set time?
~~~~ Does the OP understand the lifestyle they are entering.

Talk all you want regarding networking, but the fact is SAs are unique. I stand by my position 5 yrs in, and banking as a major UPenn is probably a better f

Bullet served 20 years, DS had 4 noms. to the AFA, andwe were hard arses. We showed him why the AFA is known as the little engineering school in the Rockies. Even as a GOVT major he would have to take a lot of math/science classes. I wonder if the OP has looked at mandated curriculum

FWIW, I think the OP left the building. Probably with a negative opinion. I only hope with hindsight he realizes it wasn't about him personally' but more about the fit for the next decade.

FWIW, want to dive at five, do it. You fulfilled your commitment.
~ Just saying, what you do during those 5 years will matter more IMPO than just your undergrad degree.
 
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OP hasn't left the building haha OP is reading everything.
@Pima
Yes, I am aware of the Navy lifestyle. I've been dedicated to it for a long time.
 
Gosh folks, haven't we wallowed this thing around enough? We're at nine pages and climbing!
 
@Vista123
Thank you for your post. Most of the things you mentioned towards the end only apply to plebes though. After plebe year it's pretty lax. Not anywhere near as lax as a civilian school, but more lax than plebe year.
 
@Vista123
Thank you for your post. Most of the things you mentioned towards the end only apply to plebes though. After plebe year it's pretty lax. Not anywhere near as lax as a civilian school, but more lax than plebe year.

I hope youre talking about lacrosse. If not, I think any of your "I know what I'm getting into" credibility was just shot.
 
@LineInTheSand
I mean, my cousin went there... and two of my closest friends go there and we talk on Facebook pretty much every night. They tell me how it is from a youngster/2nd class's perspective.
 
@LineInTheSand
I mean, my cousin went there... and two of my closest friends go there and we talk on Facebook pretty much every night. They tell me how it is from a youngster/2nd class's perspective.

Yeah, well, it's not "lax."
 
... sir sandwich, shirt stays, uniform races, Mole-ing your bed etc etc....there is mandatory lights out, PT every single day, mandatory sports time, curfew, weigh ins, room inspection, you cant even chose your underwear. I mean seriously, this is how you go to lunch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIOXHn7Ylzc

Good Luck!

Here is a fun game for you, ascothink, tell me which of the things I mentioned in my previous post you think are no longer required after plebe year?
 
Personally, if your fine with the essentially 9 year commitment( 4 in school, 5 in the navy), the Naval Academy would be your best option. For me, my goal is to become extremely successful( which I, you and many other people measure in wealth) and thus plan on 5 and diving from the army. But the reasons, I propose this is because on potential employees it gives an initial good impression that you can lead and handle a huge amount of responsibility and not just academically smart. But then also, MBA matter significantly more when it comes to working and your pay than a bachelor's degree. Furthermore, I plan on going to an elite school for my Masters and thus I feel this would be more appealing to future employers. Of course, the part that sucks is the essentially decade of prolongment to start your civilian career. So if you like the navy and would be more than willing to serve, I would go USNA, but if not Wharton's a hell of a school.
 
Personally, if your fine with the essentially 9 year commitment( 4 in school, 5 in the navy), the Naval Academy would be your best option. For me, my goal is to become extremely successful( which I, you and many other people measure in wealth) and thus plan on 5 and diving from the army. But the reasons, I propose this is because on potential employees it gives an initial good impression that you can lead and handle a huge amount of responsibility and not just academically smart. But then also, MBA matter significantly more when it comes to working and your pay than a bachelor's degree. Furthermore, I plan on going to an elite school for my Masters and thus I feel this would be more appealing to future employers. Of course, the part that sucks is the essentially decade of prolongment to start your civilian career. So if you like the navy and would be more than willing to serve, I would go USNA, but if not Wharton's a hell of a school.

Just because....

http://voices.yahoo.com/finding-job...ack=.gde_2030685_member_5826164862673244161#!
 
Man, you guys are really digging into this kid. Anyway to answer the OP's question, I am in a similar situation. I am 3Q'D and have noms to USMA and USNA and I was accepted to Princeton SCEA. To be honest this really a question that only you can answer for yourself. Try to think about what you are really passionate about. Do you spend your days the WSJ and planning out a career in finance, or are you the kind of kid who loves Tom Clancy and devours military history? If you find that your heart is truly with business than you can still make the Navy a part of your life through NROTC and the reserves. If not, if you are truly passionate about the military and the military lifestyle, than the academy might just be for you :thumb:.
 
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