Veteran Status/Benefits for Cadets who left USAFA before graduation?

DUI's, DWI's and drug use are not compatable with military service. Atleast not in these economic times.
 
I'd be interested to hear of a first hand account of this actually occuring. In my many years of dealing with Service Academies I've heard rumors of maybe one person. I would definitely not call it an "often" occurrence.

A good friend of mine from USAFA was booted our firstie year (he received an honor hit and Article 15). It was a frat issue.

He is now a Sr Airman up north and is hoping to get to OCS some day.

Another guy I know was also booted firstie year for lying. He is a Sr Amn at Dyess I believe.

Couple others too.
 
At SJAFB, an AFA grad on casual status waiting for his RNLT to UPT got a DUI. He lost the slot and was passed over for O2. Career over.
 
An extremely interesting thread. I too have heard people say for years that if you are separated from USMA that you will have to serve time out as enlisted but I have not once ever seen this actually happen. I’ve mostly seen separated cadets enroll at excellent, sometimes even Ivy League, colleges. And I would often read in the Annapolis Capital about midshipmen facing separation and a big bill owed to the government. Yet, I never once heard of a USMA cadet being separated and owing back tens of thousands of dollars. I always thought, wow, navy really collects? That is harsh. Do some of those former mids instead enlist to pay back? Is that what the navy really wants from them, so they wave a big bill in their face and say its pay or play? Can anyone name one instance where a former mid is actually on a payment plan with the navy to pay back that money? It always makes the papers at the time of separation, but of course they never report the outcome.

And on another note, I am aware of an instance where a USMA prep student was injured after completing the prep year, but before entering USMA. She did enter the academy the following year, but apparently got paid by the army during her ‘year off’ as a civilian. As I am not that familiar with the status of prep students, someone in the know please tell me that my tax dollars did not really pay for this. What if she changed her mind the day before R-Day and did not report?
 
I know several people who've left since signing the 2 for 7s and are now in the position of having to pay back the Navy. Some of them are having their parents pay at least part of it, not sure about the others.
It's also not really up to you whether or not you get to enlist or pay back. You can push for one of the other, but there's a strong trend towards making people pay it back.
Part of the 2 for 7 papers actually delineates exactly how much money you would owe if you left (~$96,000 if I'm remembering right to cover first two years of school) to reinforce how bad of an idea it would be to leave/get kicked out.
 
An extremely interesting thread. I too have heard people say for years that if you are separated from USMA that you will have to serve time out as enlisted but I have not once ever seen this actually happen. I’ve mostly seen separated cadets enroll at excellent, sometimes even Ivy League, colleges. And I would often read in the Annapolis Capital about midshipmen facing separation and a big bill owed to the government. Yet, I never once heard of a USMA cadet being separated and owing back tens of thousands of dollars. I always thought, wow, navy really collects? That is harsh. Do some of those former mids instead enlist to pay back? Is that what the navy really wants from them, so they wave a big bill in their face and say its pay or play? Can anyone name one instance where a former mid is actually on a payment plan with the navy to pay back that money? It always makes the papers at the time of separation, but of course they never report the outcome.

And on another note, I am aware of an instance where a USMA prep student was injured after completing the prep year, but before entering USMA. She did enter the academy the following year, but apparently got paid by the army during her ‘year off’ as a civilian. As I am not that familiar with the status of prep students, someone in the know please tell me that my tax dollars did not really pay for this. What if she changed her mind the day before R-Day and did not report?
I am going to take a "guess" here and say that she was paid because she was a member of the US Army Reserve, called to active duty.

When a student is appointed to the USAFA Prep School, they must enlist into the USAF Reserve. They are then called to active duty to attend the prep school. They will ONLY be released from duty if:

a. Resign or disenrolled; generally without a military committment
b. Appointed to USAFA, whereas they are discharged to accept their USAFA appointment.

My guess is she was injured while in active duty status, and that would have kept her on duty throughout the injury and rehab. And then if she was already selected to appointment to USMA they may have elected to keep her on duty until she could be discharged to accept the appointment.

That's just my "guess."

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
I am going to take a "guess" here and say that she was paid because she was a member of the US Army Reserve, called to active duty.

When a student is appointed to the USAFA Prep School, they must enlist into the USAF Reserve. They are then called to active duty to attend the prep school. They will ONLY be released from duty if:

a. Resign or disenrolled; generally without a military committment
b. Appointed to USAFA, whereas they are discharged to accept their USAFA appointment.

My guess is she was injured while in active duty status, and that would have kept her on duty throughout the injury and rehab. And then if she was already selected to appointment to USMA they may have elected to keep her on duty until she could be discharged to accept the appointment.

That's just my "guess."

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

During my Beast there was a New Cadet who said she got injured the year before during Beast and was sent home for the year while still getting paid then returned with my class. She was straight from high school and not affiliated with the reserve. She ended up getting medically discharged during Beast for the second and last time.
 
Part of the 2 for 7 papers actually delineates exactly how much money you would owe if you left (~$96,000 if I'm remembering right to cover first two years of school) to reinforce how bad of an idea it would be to leave/get kicked out.
It's not the first two years one has to pay back but the third and fourth year.
 
It's not the first two years one has to pay back but the third and fourth year.

Is it? I think you might be right. To clarify, I checked after you posted and the $96,000 was the figure quoted for the cost of the first two years, not what you'd have to pay back. The more explicit details on that were buried somewhere in the paperwork I clearly didn't read closely enough before signing.
 
So I'm a vet?

First, let me say I spent 2 1/2 years at AFA back in the early 90s. I never thought of myself as a vet. I'm now 40 years old and plan on getting my CHL (concealed handgun license) in Texas. They give veterans a 50% discount on the licensing fees. I decided to check to see what the legal status is of having served since they just mention "having served in the [military]." I have a DD214 and an honorable discharge. I remember being considered active duty.

So, to those of you who think it's despicable that a former cadet gets any status, consider this: when I was there, we got a "National Defense Service Ribbon" and were required to wear it. I always thought that was embarrassing to be honest. HOWEVER, realize that cadets also do training. I was a SERE instructor. In the "regular service", there are enlisted guys who train the servicemen. So cadets actually do perform real duties that are otherwise done by active duty, retirement benefit earning, etc guys. They teach jump school, CATM, survival, etc. They run basic training whereas regular enlistees are trained by other active duty. To that point, cadets are participating in roles that are very much active duty roles. You wouldn't diminish the service of TSgt Huckleberry at Lackland AFB just because he's been teaching basic training for the last three years, would you? Well, C2C Smith also teaches basic training during the summer between semesters when "normal people" are vacationing in Cancun or working an internship at some company they hope to work for later. How is that any less important?

Likewise, you are subject to UCMJ. You gave up your civilian freedoms. That should be worth something. You can, in fact, be called into "real" active service even as a cadet. You are under the direction of (scary!) President Obama!! If the baddies invaded, they COULD put a rifle in your hand and put you in combat. It wouldn't probably ever happen, but you ARE under that obligation as a cadet. And for that sacrifice, you get "veteran status"...barely.

So, while I was embarrassed to call myself a veteran because of my lack of "real service", and I'd never think of protesting for veteran benefits, I think maybe I SHOULD check the yes box on my CHL application. Congress went through the efforts to specifically deny cadets from certain benefits (VA?, GI Bill, etc), which implicitly imparts other benefits. If the standard was that cadets weren't veterans, then they would simply state that in the definition. There'd be no need to specifically deny certain benefits. Reminds me of A Few Good Men. "If your orders are always followed, and you told the men not to do it, then why the second order?" Why the specific denial of benefits?

And as for the deviation of this forum from benefits to what's owed if you leave, I have testimony on that too!

After my 2 1/2 years, I was involuntarily disenrolled. It was a bullsh!t railroading because the AOC didn't like me. I had the administrative hearing, the board, etc. They jumped the chain of command (over the deputy commandant). they took something that should have been simple demerits and walking tours and found a way to make it a nice, blanket "conduct unbecoming". They knew it was BS so they said "look, we'll make it easy. We want you gone, but we'll give you an honorable discharge, AND we'll waive any commitment." This is actually in the Academy Board notes. So, if what I did was so egregious, then why the HONORABLE discharge and why no commitment of any kind? I finally end up leaving. Four years later I got a bill for $87,000 and change. It went on my credit report as having an unpaid government obligation. I just graduated from college with a degree in electrical engineering. Thought I was about to enjoy life. And then AFA came back for one final kick in the nuts. I couldn't hire a lawyer so for the next three years basically I wrote back and forth with DOD to clear things up. After many months of waiting, many phone calls, many 15 page letters, I finally got a letter from their JAG office saying "apparently you were not afforded due processes and as such we are eliminating the debt you owe." No Sh!t! Wish you had thought of that before trashing my life-long dreams! I've survived and thrived since, and, in retrospect, I don't know if I'd have liked to been in the military over the last 20 years. They cut pilot slots from 750 to 150 in that era. They were paying people to get out early (the RIF). But in the end, and after 3 years of trashed credit ratings, David beat Goliath and the $87000 debt they said I owed vanished.

So will they force you to serve? Don't know. But they will send you a bill! And that was $87,000 in the mid 90s!

I remember people saying the Academy was a "free education". I remember it being better put as "a quarter-million dollar education shoved up your ass a nickle at a time."
 
It's not the first two years one has to pay back but the third and fourth year.

the way it was when i was in was if you left within the first two years, no problem. but if you started day one of year three, then you owe. and you owe based on how long you'd been in. so the payment IS for the first two year (freshman and sophomore). Obviously one day as a junior isn't worth $96,000. Now, if you got out as a senior, then the bill might be much more because you're paying back three years plus.

To a certain extent, it's legitimate. They obviously don't want a bunch of people getting 7 semesters under their belt for "free" (can't say that with a straight face!) and then going somewhere else. What other "scholarship" also gives you so many other expensive opportunities (soaring, jump school, CONUS, etc) AND pays you ($60/month net as a freshman when I was in...you have to buy your uniforms and computer...I think it was $540 gross/mo). You also get room and board, although I don't think normal dorms have SAMIs and normal cafeterias don't require you to eat at attention or recite current events at the table.

My question, though, is if the mission of the academies is to produce "career-oriented officers" then why just have the 5 year commitment upon graduation? I wonder what "success rate" they have based on their stated mission.
 
A lot of words, most of them similar to a 12 year old trying to play the "lawyer game" in an attempt to somehow justify he is OK in a very morally ambiguous situation


Ugh. I honestly wasn't sure where to begin here. The unnceccesary revival of a two year old thread? The fact that your 40 but make more excuses than my teen kids ever did? Your "they were against me" excuses for being kindly asked to leave? So many laughable issues here, so little time.

Then I saw this was your second post ever on these threads, and combined that with your user name to come to the very obvious conclusion.... Troll!

Oh, and to answer your question. Legally, you can consider yourself a veteran. I HIGHLY recommend you walk into the local VFW hall and demand to be called one. I'm sure they'll LOVE the logic you so eloquently explained in your post.
 
First, let me say I spent 2 1/2 years at AFA back in the early 90s. I never thought of myself as a vet. I'm now 40 years old and plan on getting my CHL (concealed handgun license) in Texas. They give veterans a 50% discount on the licensing fees. I decided to check to see what the legal status is of having served since they just mention "having served in the [military]." I have a DD214 and an honorable discharge. I remember being considered active duty.

So, to those of you who think it's despicable that a former cadet gets any status, consider this: when I was there, we got a "National Defense Service Ribbon" and were required to wear it. I always thought that was embarrassing to be honest. HOWEVER, realize that cadets also do training. I was a SERE instructor. In the "regular service", there are enlisted guys who train the servicemen. So cadets actually do perform real duties that are otherwise done by active duty, retirement benefit earning, etc guys. They teach jump school, CATM, survival, etc. They run basic training whereas regular enlistees are trained by other active duty. To that point, cadets are participating in roles that are very much active duty roles. You wouldn't diminish the service of TSgt Huckleberry at Lackland AFB just because he's been teaching basic training for the last three years, would you? Well, C2C Smith also teaches basic training during the summer between semesters when "normal people" are vacationing in Cancun or working an internship at some company they hope to work for later. How is that any less important?

Likewise, you are subject to UCMJ. You gave up your civilian freedoms. That should be worth something. You can, in fact, be called into "real" active service even as a cadet. You are under the direction of (scary!) President Obama!! If the baddies invaded, they COULD put a rifle in your hand and put you in combat. It wouldn't probably ever happen, but you ARE under that obligation as a cadet. And for that sacrifice, you get "veteran status"...barely.

So, while I was embarrassed to call myself a veteran because of my lack of "real service", and I'd never think of protesting for veteran benefits, I think maybe I SHOULD check the yes box on my CHL application. Congress went through the efforts to specifically deny cadets from certain benefits (VA?, GI Bill, etc), which implicitly imparts other benefits. If the standard was that cadets weren't veterans, then they would simply state that in the definition. There'd be no need to specifically deny certain benefits. Reminds me of A Few Good Men. "If your orders are always followed, and you told the men not to do it, then why the second order?" Why the specific denial of benefits?

And as for the deviation of this forum from benefits to what's owed if you leave, I have testimony on that too!

After my 2 1/2 years, I was involuntarily disenrolled. It was a bullsh!t railroading because the AOC didn't like me. I had the administrative hearing, the board, etc. They jumped the chain of command (over the deputy commandant). they took something that should have been simple demerits and walking tours and found a way to make it a nice, blanket "conduct unbecoming". They knew it was BS so they said "look, we'll make it easy. We want you gone, but we'll give you an honorable discharge, AND we'll waive any commitment." This is actually in the Academy Board notes. So, if what I did was so egregious, then why the HONORABLE discharge and why no commitment of any kind? I finally end up leaving. Four years later I got a bill for $87,000 and change. It went on my credit report as having an unpaid government obligation. I just graduated from college with a degree in electrical engineering. Thought I was about to enjoy life. And then AFA came back for one final kick in the nuts. I couldn't hire a lawyer so for the next three years basically I wrote back and forth with DOD to clear things up. After many months of waiting, many phone calls, many 15 page letters, I finally got a letter from their JAG office saying "apparently you were not afforded due processes and as such we are eliminating the debt you owe." No Sh!t! Wish you had thought of that before trashing my life-long dreams! I've survived and thrived since, and, in retrospect, I don't know if I'd have liked to been in the military over the last 20 years. They cut pilot slots from 750 to 150 in that era. They were paying people to get out early (the RIF). But in the end, and after 3 years of trashed credit ratings, David beat Goliath and the $87000 debt they said I owed vanished.

So will they force you to serve? Don't know. But they will send you a bill! And that was $87,000 in the mid 90s!

I remember people saying the Academy was a "free education". I remember it being better put as "a quarter-million dollar education shoved up your ass a nickle at a time."

This just in from the Sour Grapes Division of the Old Dead Thread Department.
 
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