VMI and the Citadel

Hi and Welcome!

rally1 said:
I first viewed this blog several months ago as time approached for my son to make a decision--I held off on commenting for a while now. My son was interested in VMI and possibly the Citadel. After learning more about the schools, the cadet life, their graduates (military and civilian), and alumni statistics--and after visiting both schools, I must say that I saw a tremendous difference. Fortunately, my son was accepted at his #1 choice and is attending VMI!
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Looks like our sons will be Rats together! After a visit in the spring, my son knew that VMI was right for him. You will find this forum to be very helpful (I'm constantly sending/showing my son different threads.) The staff at VMI have also been wonderful in answering all of our questions.
 
Tips/Advice?

USMMA2014mom said:
Congratulations on a wonderful choice for your son. My oldest son just completed his Rat year at VMI. He was accepted to VMI, the Citadel, VT, and received an apppointment to USMMA. He loved VMI so much on his overnight visit so that is where is decided to go, and yes there is the ratline, straining and alot of other things that go on that in the end produce fine young men and women, some who will serve in the armed forces and some that will go on to the civilian sector...all that will be successful, with a very strong and tight Alumni Assoc. The Honor Code at VMI is also very strict, as they do not tolerate any lying, cheating or stealing, and there are no second chances, drumming outs are an often occurrence and serve almost as a scared straight environment for the new rats onboard. My second son, who just graduated is now in his indoc period at USMMA, he too was accepted to VMI, but really liked Kings Point on his overnight visit. Either way, my boys will commission in the Marine Corps as ever since they were little they have wanted to follow in their fathers footsteps, and I am very proud of the young men that they have become. Be proud of your son this is a great accomplishment.

On another note, depending on what someone's child is looking for, a commission in an armed service, or just the military environment for college, there are so many wonderful choices. All of the service academies provide the training for the specified services, and then VMI, the Citadel, and USMMA offer a wide variety of opportunities to those that attend.

Good Luck to all that are searching for the right choice. From our experience the overnight visits really help in the decision making, but my advice would be to do them when the ratline, knobs, and plebe sessions are in full force, so that the prospective student sees how their first year will truly be.

Proud Mom of a VMI Cadet, a USMMA Midshipman and wife to a retired Marine and USNA Grad :thumb:
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Would you or your son have any words of wisdom for the soon-to-be Rats and parents? With Matriculation Day just a little over a month away, we're getting a little anxious :thumb:
 
First time posting : )

Hi everyone
I enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and noticed the latest entry was from 2010. Can anyone provide an updated comparison? My son wanted to attend West Point since he was 8 - he has an open file but did not receive acceptance yet. He has received acceptance to The Citadel and we did an overnight visit. While it was an eye opener for him, he's still passionate about attending. I have heard a few disturbing stories - I say stories because I can't confirm facts - regarding cadet life. Can anyone ease a mother's anxiety with some facts? Is it as bad as people say? What strategies can anyone offer to my son to stay focused and "survive" freshman year.
 
RoxC40 said:
Hi everyone
I enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and noticed the latest entry was from 2010. Can anyone provide an updated comparison? My son wanted to attend West Point since he was 8 - he has an open file but did not receive acceptance yet. He has received acceptance to The Citadel and we did an overnight visit. While it was an eye opener for him, he's still passionate about attending. I have heard a few disturbing stories - I say stories because I can't confirm facts - regarding cadet life. Can anyone ease a mother's anxiety with some facts? Is it as bad as people say? What strategies can anyone offer to my son to stay focused and "survive" freshman year.
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Hi! My son is currently a "knob" at The Citadel and has adjusted well.

He applied to the USAFA last year and got a TWE, he had every intention of reapplying to USAFA this year but has decided that The Citadel good fit for him.

I, like you, was a little worried about the "stories" you hear. After speaking with my son's AFJROTC SAS Instructor who is a retired USAF Col. and Citadel Grad, I learned that you have to go in with the right mindset.

Believe me, the fear of the unknown was much worse than the actual reality.

It's a great school.
 
ncmom26 said:
Hi! My son is currently a "knob" at The Citadel and has adjusted well.

He applied to the USAFA last year and got a TWE, he had every intention of reapplying to USAFA this year but has decided that The Citadel good fit for him.

I, like you, was a little worried about the "stories" you hear. After speaking with my son's AFJROTC SAS Instructor who is a retired USAF Col. and Citadel Grad, I learned that you have to go in with the right mindset.

Believe me, the fear of the unknown was much worse than the actual reality.

It's a great school.
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How is your son doing so far? My son has been accepted and was just there for the weekend competing for the Scholarship competition. He loved the place and is really hoping for a scholarship. He, too has applied to USMA and USNA. He has attended West Points summer program and has seen USMA at West Poiont. He loves West Point as well. Though, I believe he may choose Citadel if chosen for a scholarship. Sounds like your son is pleased with his decision.
 
My son is also a “Knob” at The Citadel. I know this may sound a little backwards to many people on here but The Citadel was his first choice, the service academies were plan B, C and etc. I will say it was very, very tough for him to turn down his acceptance to the Coast Guard Academy, his own words were “I wish I could do both”. He is at The Citadel on an NROTC scholarship and with some additional scholarships through the school our bill was $0.00.

So far he has had a very positive experience. He will tell you it is tough but openly admits that is part of the reason he went there. I have heard things like…our cadre is tough, really tough but is obvious they are tough on us because they want us to succeed….this stinks, put we are all going through it together…you learn to depend on each other and etc. Back during parents weekend we chatted about some of the guys that had left. He seems to think they tried to “beat the system” or “out smart the cadre”. He says you just can’t do that (yes, he is a man of few words sometimes). He relates that the Knobs try to make up games to go along with the sweep details, shower clean ups and etc to entertain themselves.

As the poster above mentions, you have to go in with the right mindset. Leave your resume at home and realize everything is reset to “zero”. You have to be a team player.

I was born in the Low Country of South Carolina and even though we moved out of state when I was young, I still have a lot of relatives in the area. I have heard the “horror” stories about The Citadel since I was a child (I’m 47 now); however, our son has not experienced anything like that. I will say that each company has it own personality and some are known to be tougher than others. He has made friends with a couple of guys that live in the Charleston area. I will admit this has given him the opportunity to get away from the school on a few Saturdays and Sundays (most of their weekends are still busy with ROTC training, home football games, inspections and etc.) and decompress even if for only a few hours.

Overall he is very happy with his choice.

If you have any specific questions send me a private message and I will be glad to try to answer them.
 
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49er said:
My son is also a “Knob” at The Citadel. I know this may sound a little backwards to many people on here but The Citadel was his first choice, the service academies were plan B, C and etc. I will say it was very, very tough for him to turn down his acceptance to the Coast Guard Academy, his own words were “I wish I could do both”. He is at The Citadel on an NROTC scholarship and with some additional scholarships through the school our bill was $0.00.

So far he has had a very positive experience. He will tell you it is tough but openly admits that is part of the reason he went there. I have heard things like…our cadre is tough, really tough but is obvious they are tough on us because they want us to succeed….this stinks, put we are all going through it together…you learn to depend on each other and etc. Back during parents weekend we chatted about some of the guys that had left. He seems to think they tried to “beat the system” or “out smart the cadre”. He says you just can’t do that (yes, he is a man of few words sometimes). He relates that the Knobs try to make up games to go along with the sweep details, shower clean ups and etc to entertain themselves.

As the poster above mentions, you have to go in with the right mindset. Leave your resume at home and realize everything is reset to “zero”. You have to be a team player.

I was born in the Low Country of South Carolina and even though we moved out of state when I was young, I still have a lot of relatives in the area. I have heard the “horror” stories about The Citadel since I was a child (I’m 47 now); however, our son has not experienced anything like that. I will say that each company has it own personality and some are known to be tougher than others. He has made friends with a couple of guys that live in the Charleston area. I will admit this has given him the opportunity to get away from the school on a few Saturdays and Sundays (most of their weekends are still busy with ROTC training, home football games, inspections and etc.) and decompress even if for only a few hours.

Overall he is very happy with his choice.

If you have any specific questions send me a private message and I will be glad to try to answer them.
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I very well may take you up on the offer. He should be hearing from the scholarship committee in the next few weeks. If he decides to take their offer, I will certainly reach out to you. Like your son, he may decide to turn down West Point and USCGA if accepted to attend Citadel. Balls in his court. Thanks for your response.
 
WienerDog- much as I love VMI and the Citadel as our honored and historic rival-I think that you and your son really need to talk about his goals in life beyond college. If those goals really are centered around being a career Army officer, then my honest, and I believe unbiased, recommendation is that he takes the appointment to the Service Academy if offered. USMA is after the primary, and purpose built primary commissiong source for the Army.While I have very little visibility to the future of the Army officer corps, I have no doubt that West Point will continue to fill the role, and that his career- however long it may be- will benefit in countless ways from being a USMA grad. While thousands of great soldiers have come out of the Citadel and VMI- as a now retired career soldier, I have to be honest and say that the best launching pad for a career officer is the Service Academy for the service they want to enter. They are prepared better for their intial time of service and the network of grads on AD is far larger than from anywhere else , including the SMCs. So deliberately walking away from that is something you should think very hard about (not to mention that it is definitely financially a better deal to go to USMA than anywhere else, even with an ROTC scholarship in hand. Free is hard to beat!)

On the other hand, if he is still undecided about how much he wants to have a career as a professional soldier, (or may not really want one at all) but wants the lifestyle and relationships that are part and parcel of an SMC then my advice would be: "Go Bulldogs!"
Free advice for what it's worth:wink:
 
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bruno said:
WienerDog- much as I love VMI and the Citadel as our honored and historic rival-I think that you and your son really need to talk about his goals in life beyond college. If those goals really are centered around being a career Army officer, then my honest, and I believe unbiased, recommendation is that he takes the appointment to the Service Academy if offered. USMA is after the primary, and purpose built primary commissiong source for the Army.While I have very little visibility to the future of the Army officer corps, I have no doubt that West Point will continue to fill the role, and that his career- however long it may be- will benefit in countless ways from being a USMA grad. While thousands of great soldiers have come out of the Citadel and VMI- as a now retired career soldier, I have to be honest and say that the best launching pad for a career officer is the Service Academy for the service they want to enter. They are prepared better for their intial time of service and the network of grads on AD is far larger than from anywhere else , including the SMCs. So deliberately walking away from that is something you should think very hard about (not to mention that it is definitely financially a better deal to go to USMA than anywhere else, even with an ROTC scholarship in hand. Free is hard to beat!)

On the other hand, if he is still undecided about how much he wants to have a career as a professional soldier, (or may not really want one at all) but wants the lifestyle and relationships that are part and parcel of an SMC then my advice would be: "Go Bulldogs!"
Free advice for what it's worth:wink:
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I want to thank you for your reply. Your advice was certainly taken! I believe my son is excited about his current decision, that being Citadel and or VMI. However, I feel that once the hype has passed about the scholarship and acceptance he will again focus on West Point. He spent the summer there with SLS and fell in love with the school. He does have a desire to serve his country and whatever path I am sure will be thought over. Your advice as everyone else on this sight is so worth the reading and extremely helpful to him and his life-altering decision. I will sit with him and discuss his decision once again. I really dont believe this can be talked over too much.
 
WienerDog said:
My son has been accepted and was just there for the weekend competing for the Scholarship competition.
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Excuse my ignorance, but how has your son found out already? I finished my application and have yet to hear anything back from The Citadel.
 
Art.Perea said:
Excuse my ignorance, but how has your son found out already? I finished my application and have yet to hear anything back from The Citadel.
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He received an acceptance letter first week of October. He applied in September. So, the notification was relatively fast. He was, shortly after that. invited to the scholarship competition.
 
bruno said:
WienerDog- much as I love VMI and the Citadel as our honored and historic rival-I think that you and your son really need to talk about his goals in life beyond college. If those goals really are centered around being a career Army officer, then my honest, and I believe unbiased, recommendation is that he takes the appointment to the Service Academy if offered. USMA is after the primary, and purpose built primary commissiong source for the Army.While I have very little visibility to the future of the Army officer corps, I have no doubt that West Point will continue to fill the role, and that his career- however long it may be- will benefit in countless ways from being a USMA grad. While thousands of great soldiers have come out of the Citadel and VMI- as a now retired career soldier, I have to be honest and say that the best launching pad for a career officer is the Service Academy for the service they want to enter. They are prepared better for their intial time of service and the network of grads on AD is far larger than from anywhere else , including the SMCs. So deliberately walking away from that is something you should think very hard about (not to mention that it is definitely financially a better deal to go to USMA than anywhere else, even with an ROTC scholarship in hand. Free is hard to beat!)

On the other hand, if he is still undecided about how much he wants to have a career as a professional soldier, (or may not really want one at all) but wants the lifestyle and relationships that are part and parcel of an SMC then my advice would be: "Go Bulldogs!"
Free advice for what it's worth:wink:
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I think your views on this are completely wrong. I graduated from The Citadel and served in the Army for seven years. Even then ('84-'91), the days of West Pointers receiving preference for career advancement were over. I saw many USMA junior officers fail while those from other commissioning sources succeeded. WP ring-knockers were very much frowned upon.

It is after the military when a WP diploma might be more valuable. VMI and The Citadel aren't household words outside of the South, but everyone knows about West Point to some degree. WP alumni networks can be found throughout the country, while the alumni networks of VMI and The Citadel are strongest in the East, especially in the Mid-Atlantic and South.
 
Hmmm- could be CitadelGrad, but I think you've got it backwards. Good thing about opinions- everyone gets to have their own and they usually differ. :smile:
However,in my humble opinion - I believe that the OP really needs to have a discussion with their son reviewing life interests, goals, finances and pros and cons of USMA versus other schools before walking away from an appointment to the US Military Academy if his primary interest is being a US Army officer. (You can argue all you want about perceptions, but numbers are there- all you have to do is look at the % of Brigade Commanders and General Officers who are USMA grads versus any other source to see that you will be entering a profession that is dominated by one school. That may not be the sole or even an important consideration when folks are considered for advancement in rank- but it is clear that there are a heck of a lot more USMA grads than any other school right from the beginning, and that only increases as you increase in rank. However, that USMA appointment comes with a minimum of a 5 year lock on post graduation plans. The Citadel or VMI offer him the opportunity to do what maybe 50% of the kids at those schools discover- that perspectives change and that their plans on graduation no longer really revolve around the Army (or other services) and at most they wish to pursue a Reserve career while they pursue a civilian career. While USMA may have a large national alumni network- VMI and I assume the Citadel have a strong and very effective national network. Having been a member of the Alum chapter when I lived in Hawaii and as a member of the Massachusetts chapter now, those networks are pretty effective at helping young grads get started in Civilian careers. Once you are on your way in your career, those networks are a lot less important in the business world in moving you forward than is your personal resume and accomplishments (as it should be.)

So IMHO- the value of one of these SMCs is really linked to the ability to get a first class education in a really academically, physically and emotionally demanding military environment and still retain the ability to decide on graduation whether one wishes to pursue a primarily civilian career which may (ought to ) include a Reserve component, or the option of pursuing a Military career in which most assuredly you will be following a long tradition and have a lot of fellow alums ( but where as a USMA grad you would have several orders of magnitude more fellow alums as your career goes forward). Again- just an opinion- others may differ.

Bottom line though, Wienerdog- I would strongly suggest that before you/he make a decision , that you do a lot of thinking and conversation if your son is actually in the enviable position of having both acceptances to the Citadel and appointment to USMA.
 
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I agree 100% with Bruno on this one.... I've seen the differences first hand. I am a Citadel graduate. My son graduated from West Point.....If a young man or woman is even thinking about one of the armed services as a career and has the opportunity to attend that branch of service's academy, he/she absolutely has to accept that appointment....I love The Citadel, but the Dept of Defense spends a lot of time and money in selecting and educating the SA cadets/midshipmen. DoD is going to foster this investment. Do not believe for one second that SA grads do not have an advantage and I believe that their advantage is justified. I am not saying that SMC or regular ROTC cadets cant be successful or even brilliant. I am saying that the road is quite a bit harder....I have heard the old adage that West Pointers are looked down upon in the Army.... By Who? The answer is no one that matters, thats who!!! Anyone who believes that ring knocking is dead, well opinions again.... Read the book "Four Stars" Thats all that needs to be said about this subject!!!!!
 
I'm retired Army and I agree there is no denying that academy grads do have an advantage in career advancement though its partly a numbers game because they have more grads in the services than any other school. Most would agree that The Citadel and VMI are the next closest thing to attending the service academies; both commission more officers than other schools with ROTC and their grads do extremely well, look at the number of flag officers both produce and the many high profile positions held by their alumni.
No denying that it is more prestigious to be a FSA grad but in the military where you went to school does carry a lot of weight so having a degree from The Citadel or VMI will generally take you farther than being a grad of just another college.
 
As an example- even within the ROTC Cadet Command- of the 4 new ROTC Brigade Commanders , 3 are USMA grads. Is there an official program to favor USMA grads? No- but as with every organization- mass has a quality all its own, and the sheer numbers of USMA grads relative to any other school ensures that your alumni ties will carry more weight than those from other schools if you are a professional officer. Again- does that mean you will be badly served going into the Army from the Citadel or VMI etc? No, not at all- there have been countless great soldiers who have come from, and are still coming from those schools . But if you are offered an appointment to USMA and your principal interest in life is to be an Army officer, then I believe you are making a shortsighted decision if you follow a different path.
 
Iposted a thread earlier, and Bruno you helped me out a lot - I appreciate it, I was just wondering if anybody else knows how the relation VMI to NSW is? The way it was explained to me earlier, was that VMI has a higher standing amongst the NROTC programs across the country (I'm assuming because they are what some consider to be the Country's premier Military College - with all due respect to The Citadel) and because of that they receive on average two BUD/s slots per year - (provided the Candidates are truly interested in NAVSPECWAR and have prepped prior, and there standing amongst others). Does anyone have any extra info on this? If so, please post any advice if you don't feel comfortable PM me and If not, thanks for your time.
 
First for the record.......as of the moment The Citadel has produced 270 Flag Officers, VMI 262. And no, VMI does not get any guaranteed BUDs slots; their grads compete for them like every other ROTC commissionee.
As for the issue of having civilians on campus (in the evening only) remember that The Citadel has a graduate school, VMI does not; they also have MECEPS and STA-21s, VMI chooses not to. Folks can thumb their noses all they want just remember The Citadel services a large population in a metropolitan area and has to offer the appropriate opportunities; its the only school in the lowcountry area where school teachers can get an MAT, MEd or Graduate Certificate. We have the advantage of also having more academic offerings and more modern facilities, aside from that both The Citadel and VMI are outstanding schools where young people can get a great education and learn lessons they wont get at any other civilian college in the country; the track record of their graduates surpasses that of any other SMC. Increasingly finances play a big part in the decision as to which school some may choose as the difference between in state and out of state tuition is sizable.
 
He did get an offer of a relatively good amount of scholarship money to The Citadel in a letter today. In addition to that came his appointment letter to VMI. Yesterday he received a CVW to USNA. Been a good couple of days for him. Hope everyone has a blessed holiday.
 
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