VP Nomination

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by Midparenthopeful, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Midparenthopeful

    Midparenthopeful New Member

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    Can someone answer my question about VP Nominations? I understand there are a total of five VP nominations every year. How do you know if your DD/DS receives a VP nomination? Is a rejection notice ever sent?
    Is this just one of those "black holes" or "behind the curtains" type of things the kids submit to, but never really know their status?
    BTW, DS has applied to VP, and three MOC.
    Just looking for insight to the VP Noms.
     
  2. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    You've got it. Black hole! Must apply for it to show good faith, all out effort. Look for manna from Heaven before you do a VP nom. Closely held, closely controlled, chits the USNA uses most often.
     
  3. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Everyone who applies receives a nomination. More like a gold mine than manna. Only one or two will receive an appointment. The remainder will be eligible for a restricted waiting list.
     
  4. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    I don't think so. :wink:
     
  5. Prep

    Prep Member

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    AJM, I think you are wrong.
     
  6. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    I made three statements. One or two appointments. All get nominations. Restricted waiting list.. Not sure which one you have problems understanding.

    First off, in re appointments, from US Code Title 10, Subtitle C, Part III, Subchapter 603, Paragraph 6954:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/6954

    Authorized total strength the day prior to graduation:

    Five over four year is 1.2 per year and, also, since there is attrition, occasionally he can offer two per year and maybe even rarely, offer three.

    The question of the remainder getting nominations resulting in a restricted waiting list goes hand in hand. First off from the same US Code Title 10, Subtitle C, Part III, Subchapter 603, Paragraph 6954 we get the composition of the first 150 candidates on the waiting list:

    Clauses (3) and (4) in subsection (a):
    So, you can plainly see that the first 150 candidates are selected by order of merit from alternates of MOCs only. A lot of misconception here.

    Next, if the class is still not to authorized strength, and we can do the math and realize it is not, paragraph 6956 applies:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/6956


    Clauses (2) through (8) of section 6954(a) of this title;
    So, the VP’s alternates are eligible for three fourths of the appointments after the first 150 MOC alternates have been selected.

    As for total number of alternates, from above we know that the VP can have alternates and from 6954, we know that only the MOCs are restricted to ten:
    As an aside, please note that Presidentials and ROTC are not mentioned anywhere and, thusly, fall under the one fourth of the remaining “remainder shall be from qualified candidates who competed for appointment under any other provision of law.” Even more restricted than VP.

    Why do you think the SAs insist that everyone apply for the VP. One appointment from 20,000 applicants is kind of a waste of time isn’t it (your manna from heaven). Almost guaranteed appointment if your WPM supports competitiveness in the national pool
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  7. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    I think AJM has the correct insight into this. I believe a lot of posters on here are thinking that for each vacancy the VP is only limited to 10 nominees, which isn't true.
    See AJM's last quoted block above.
     
  8. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    If everyone who applies receives a nomination, then everyone who receives an LOA stating that an appointment is guaranteed contingent on a nomination would be in, assuming they had applied for the VP nom. I'm confused.
     
  9. 1964BGO

    1964BGO Member

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    In 21 years as a BGO I have had two candidates who have received offers of appoint-ment which incurred the use of the VP nom. In both instances it was because the candidate had not received a nom from any other source. My understanding is that the VP nom is held in reserve for this express purpose: a highly desirable candidate who has failed to receive a nom from any of the other nominating sources - the VP nom is awarded only when this specific situation arises, and is not awarded in anticipation of the situation arising, but after the candidate has been identified as an appointee.
     
  10. Spud

    Spud BGO

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    So the moral of the story is: Apply to the VP
     
  11. 1964BGO

    1964BGO Member

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    YES... apply for the VP nomination for every academy in which you are interested. Quite often you get only one nomination. The VP nom COULD be your backup to one of the other academies. It doesn't cost anything significant, doesn't take much additional time to apply, so why not just do it?
     
  12. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    And as I said, expect manna from Heaven before a VP nomination that will be received to enable an appointment. :wink:

    There is de jure and there is de facto. It is disingenuous, if possibly de jure to put forth the idea that all receive a nomination, in the context of being meaningful and leading to an appointment. More like when cows fly. :eek::rolleyes: These are the proverbial black hole noms, chits for USNA for those candidates who stand no chance otherwise. For the average "bear"? No way. Merely a different entry ticket like NAPS in which USNA holds all the nominating cards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  13. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Really? Wow! Thanks AJM for the info. My son has an LOA. Ill tell him not to bother filling out the other MOC packets--no need.:thumb:
     
  14. buff81

    buff81 Moderator

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    In West Point admissions world-
    The VP nom is treated as a Congressional nom.
    WP creates a slate of 10 (for each available vacancy) from all VP nom applicants and chooses one vacancy winner per slate.
    The other 9 on the slate are qualified alternates and can be appointed pursuant to USC 4343 (the equivalent of 6954 for USNA) in a 3:1 ratio, Congressional noms to Service connected noms.

    AJM7680 interprets that the VP is not a Member of Congress and therefore is not limited to only being able to nominate 10.
    West Point Admissions interprets differently.
    I'm not a lawyer but it could be the since the VP presides over the Senate and can vote in a tie-breaker, that the VP is then considered a MOC.

    In WP Admissions world, the VP is used for those desired candidates who did not otherwise receive a nomination.

    Vista123 - have DS fill out those other MOC packets. :wink:
     
  15. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    In any case, AJM's point measures right up there next to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. In essence, to virtually all candidates, beyond the mandatory "do it" it is meaningless, uselss. It's like saying you own a title to a brand new BMW, and you have to retrieve it by dogsled from the South Pole, Antarctica.

    All legal. All true. All virtually useless. To any but the powers-that-be at USNA admissions and their superiors who determine they want one or two specific studs or grandsons of 4-stars they own a monumental favor ... and have otherwise been unable to garner another nomination. A chit for them. Not for candidates. And the proof's in 1964's BGO pudding over a score, 2 decades of dedicated service, 20 admissions seasons, a ton of candidates ... 2 viable nominations.

    Not my idea of a "gold mine." Maybe a "dry hole?" The old "blind pig/acorn" story?
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  16. buff81

    buff81 Moderator

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    There are several other situations besides the stud (who would probably get a LOA) or kid of a Star (who would have a Presidential) that might garner a VP nom.

    There are those candidates who fall between the cracks with noms.
    Some could be from very competitive districts (ie NOVA) where there are a ton of qualified candidates with limited noms.
    Could be a candidate from a district of a MOC who does not nominate.
    Could be someone who applies too late to get a MOC nom.

    Bottom line.
    Advise from WP is always, always, always apply to all noms qualified for, including the VP.
    Not - apply to VP only if you are a recruited athlete.

    Give the SAs all the noms that you are qualified for so that they have more options to give you a nom slot.

    I know that this is the USNA forum, but I would think that the same advise would come from them also.
     
  17. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    1964, you're the one among us NOT talking in hypotheticals about WHO might garner these rare manna bread nuggets? Do you have any specific recollection about the profiles of those 2 recipients beyond "highly desirable," "unnominated," and already determined "appointable" with a nomination? Help to continue to get real, taking us from "gold mine"/everyone gets one to reality of 2 in 21 years who in fact, did.:worship: :thumb:

    P.S. Buff, for the record, the illustration was "grand" kids. No presidential there, at least as a function of Gramps' 4 stars. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  18. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    First, you seem to be confusing nominations made directly from the VP's slate and those made to alternates. Pure speculation on your part and absolutely no way to confirm what you seem to be implying. The academy does not reveal the source of nominations utilized for those offered appointments from the alternate list.
     
  19. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Indeed. I think you need to read the preceding post. Still, I'll stick with my speculations. They've proven to be quite satisfactory in working on this education biz. :wink: :cool:

    And I'll stick with the essential point that it is disingenuous, even if dejure, to imply that VP noms are available to all. Only in theory. Reality check.

    Let's keep hammering.:hammer::thumb: I'm fully confident the masses get the de facto truth of this one, quibbling as we might be. :eek:
     
  20. buff81

    buff81 Moderator

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    Ah- missed that :redface: so, yes, the grandkid of the 4-star would not get a Presidential.

    Call me naive - but I'd like to think that the Admissions Committee would not kowtow to a x-Star.
     

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