We hold these truths to be self-evident

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Bruce doesn't even sound good. If you want Jersey talent, go with Meatloaf.
 
Pima- I appreciate the diversion. I like Springsteen and he surely is the Jersey guy- I am not sure that Born in the USA is a 4th of July song for me as it is a pretty bitter set of lyrics, but since music is relational/ associational, if it brings up associations of the beach, fire works, BBQs and generally all of the stuff that goes on the 4th for you- then it is a valid nominee for the title in my book! ( The power of music association is pretty potent- I can never hear Rod Stewart's Maggie May without being transported to High School years- a couple of bars and suddenly I am a teenager laying in bed in my parents house listening to that playing on my clock radio again!) So The Boss and Born in the USA make the list if you say they do! How about the rest of you? What music or group conjures up the 4th of July for you? I saw the Beach Boys on the Mall in DC on the 4th of July almost 3 decades ago- so they are it for me. The 1812 Overture and the Boston Pops also jump to mind ( odd how a Russian composition about the battle for Moscow in 1812 would become a standard US Independence Day offering). Any others?
 
Pima- I appreciate the diversion. I like Springsteen and he surely is the Jersey guy- I am not sure that Born in the USA is a 4th of July song for me as it is a pretty bitter set of lyrics, but since music is relational/ associational, if it brings up associations of the beach, fire works, BBQs and generally all of the stuff that goes on the 4th for you- then it is a valid nominee for the title in my book! ( The power of music association is pretty potent- I can never hear Rod Stewart's Maggie May without being transported to High School years- a couple of bars and suddenly I am a teenager laying in bed in my parents house listening to that playing on my clock radio again!) So The Boss and Born in the USA make the list if you say they do! How about the rest of you? What music or group conjures up the 4th of July for you? I saw the Beach Boys on the Mall in DC on the 4th of July almost 3 decades ago- so they are it for me. The 1812 Overture and the Boston Pops also jump to mind ( odd how a Russian composition about the battle for Moscow in 1812 would become a standard US Independence Day offering). Any others?

Usually, when I see the Boston Pops celebrating Independence Day, it is with a John Philip Sousa theme.

And there is no more American composer than George Gershwin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U40xBSz6Dc

Or a more recent recording (that more of you will recognized - jump to about 10:55)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSq_nwoG43s
 
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They had the power to end it immediately, instead of "eventually." Stroke of the pen---and it's over. Yet they chose to do what was easy, instead of doing what was right.

Luigi, How's the air up there in your ivory tower?

You have every right to be indignant on the hypocrisy of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence. Easy to do so from a 21st Century lens of morality.

But to claim that their decision was the ""easy" route, that they simply could have added a "stroke of the pen".... Well, it shows a appalling lack of knowledge of the situation they faced, and complete ignorance of what their signature on this Declaration meant to the World.

It has been agreed to by all here that these men and their world-view was far from perfect. They weren't, and neither was their morality. And I would have also loved to see this document contain language that denounced the evil stain that was slavery on our soil. (BTW, Jefferson's original draft DID contain just such language, but to appease the Southern states and get their agreement to sign the document, that language had to be removed. A unanimous vote was required, and without their concurrence, our united fight for Independence would have been dead before it ever had a chance to see the light of day) But to say this was a simple situation? A mere stroke of the pen? Seriously? You just don't get it.

And while there is definite shame that slavery was in the end not addressed as part of this Declaration, and the men who authored and signed it left this cancer to be addressed in a very bloody fashion by this nation in later years, to question the difficult choice they faced, and the courage needed based on the risk they took, well.... I guess your civics lessons were a little lacking.

BTW, Springsteen rocks. And unless you've been on the Seaside Boardwalk on a 4th of July weekend and seen the crowd's reaction when Born in the USA is played, any critique on content versus public reaction is moot. BTW #2, it ain't nothing compared to the reaction the fans have when he starts playing the opening notes of "Born to Run" live at the Stone Pony in Asbury Park.
 
Bruce doesn't even sound good. If you want Jersey talent, go with Meatloaf.

I could only assume this was said in jest. You couldn't have been serious when your wrote this triffle, cold you? Sarcasm sometimes translates so poorly over the written forum such as the internet...

You do realize these words are blasphemous from where I come from? :wink:
 
Another 4th of July Song

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy
by George M. Cohan

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy
A Yankee Doodle, do or die
A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam
Born on the Fourth of July

I've got a Yankee Doodle sweetheart
She's my Yankee Doodle joy
Yankee Doodle came to London
Just to ride the ponies
I am the Yankee Doodle Boy
 
Yes, of course. Lip service opposition of something wrong but acceding to it anyway is a reason for praise? Seriously?

For those mentioned previously, it was more than just lip service, and they did not accede to it. Jefferson does not equal all of the founders.

They had the power to end it immediately, instead of "eventually." Stroke of the pen---and it's over. Yet they chose to do what was easy, instead of doing what was right.

This is a seriously naive and simplistic view of history. The signers (and framers of the Constitution) were representatives of the people, not dictators (and even dictators need more than a pen). Preserving Liberty means respecting the will of the people to be governed, and it took MANY pen strokes, time, blood, sweat, suffering, tears, a Civil War, another big pen stroke (Emancipation Proclamation), and still more blood, sweat, suffering, tears, and beyond to change people's hearts and minds.

I wouldn't have included a lie stating "all men are created equal." Sounds good on paper, but not even close.

It does not state, all men are currently being treated as equals. It says all men are created equal. It's a principle, a truth that inspired most of the signers to examine their lives and work to make this a reality (as well as many others who followed, like MLK). And for its day, it was quite revolutionary, and certainly not the easy path.

Let's turn around the "what would you do?" question -- f you were a black slave and read such a lie about "all men created equal" in the supposed "freedom document" knowing that the same men who just lied on paper were then going to come home and sell your family as easily as they sell the fall crop--what would you do?

I wouldn't see it as a lie, because it's not. All men are created equal. I believe that - do you? It's a timeless truth, regardless of whether men decide to live by it or not. And while some of the signers gave it only lip service and acted hypocritically, many did not, serving as active and staunch proponents of abolitionism.

But don't take my word for it - take Richard Allen's. He actually was a black slave who worked to buy his freedom, moving to Philadelphia in 1786. A friend of Benjamin Rush, and other signers, Allen was a minister who co-founded the Free Africa Society and operated one of the stations on the Underground Railroad. In 1830 he presided over the first "***** Convention" - below are the first two sentences in his "Address to the Free People of Colour in These United States"

Impressed with a firm and settled conviction, and more especially being thought by that inestimable and invaluable instrument, namely, the Declaration of Independence, that all men are born free and equal, and consequently are endowed with unalienable rights, among which are the enjoyments of life, liberty, and the pursuits of happiness.

Viewing these as incontrovertible facts, we have been led to the following conclusions; that our forlorn and deplorable situation earnestly and loudly demand of us to devise and pursue all legal means for the speedy elevation of ourselves and brethren to the scale and standing of men.

Bold emphasis is mine. Words are from an actual free black man, former slave, and contemporary/friend of many Founders. Saw the Declaration as true. Used it as springboard to right the wrongs of slavery in his day.


Now, hopefully to hop off of the contentious point / counter-point merry go round we're on, I hope we both can agree that we ought to be thankful for the right to air our opinions and engage in vigorous debate? Noticed your tagline is a quote from Justice Brandeis, a rather big proponent of the Constitutional right of free speech as I recall... :smile:
 
And while there is definite shame that slavery was in the end not addressed as part of this Declaration, and the men who authored and signed it left this cancer to be addressed in a very bloody fashion by this nation in later years, to question the difficult choice they faced, and the courage needed based on the risk they took, well.... I guess your civics lessons were a little lacking.

So you take a position that it was impossible for Jefferson to free his own slaves?

Seriously?

I guess YOUR economics lessons were a little lacking. :rolleyes:
 
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Bravo said:
I wouldn't see it as a lie, because it's not. All men are created equal......

But don't take my word for it - take Richard Allen's. He actually was a black slave who worked to buy his freedom...

It is clear to see by your example that "all men" could not have possibly been believed by the Signers as being "created equal" when one actually has to purchase his liberty to get it! Andin some cases, purchase it from a FF!

Yes, I would call that a lie. You I would assume would call it something less harsh?

Bravo said:
Now, hopefully to hop off of the contentious point / counter-point merry go round we're on, I hope we both can agree that we ought to be thankful for the right to air our opinions and engage in vigorous debate? Noticed your tagline is a quote from Justice Brandeis, a rather big proponent of the Constitutional right of free speech as I recall... :smile:

Absolutely, which is even more astounding that some in this thread would seek to attack me for expressing a contrarian viewpoint.
 
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Absolutely, which is even more astounding that some in this thread would seek to attack me for expressing a contrarian viewpoint.


I don't believe that YOU have been attacked. There have been some eloquent and inspired posts to dispute your "contrarian viewpoint" but none to attack you personally. OTOH, your posts have seemed to attack those who disagree with you. Maybe dial it back a notch?
 
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I don't believe that YOU have been attacked. There have been some eloquent and inspired posts to dispute your "contrarian viewpoint" but none to attack you personally. OTOH, your posts have seemed to attack those who disagree with you. Maybe dial it back a notch?

So you don't consider being called a "troll" an attack.

Now point out where I've attacked anyone.

It's ok to try to make a point, but don't lie to do it.
 
So you don't consider being called a "troll" an attack.

Now point out where I've attacked anyone.

It's ok to try to make a point, but don't lie to do it.

Well right off the bat calling me a liar is a personal attack. You may disagree with what I posted but that last statement just sort of proves my point:wink:

I think that this qualifies as an attack by you:

"How ever you need to justify their use of their fellow man as a beast of burden to make yourself feel better, have at it.

"All men" were not created equal in their eyes. Some were nothing but property to be bought and sold.

Spin it."
 
All right folks - game's over and thread is locked. When the players are calling each other liars when they disagree - it has outlived its usefulness.
 
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