Well, good thing for him it wasn't an "honor" violation...

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by Jcc123, May 11, 2015.

  1. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    280
  2. Dixieland

    Dixieland Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,217
    Likes Received:
    126
    Wow. Speechless.
     
  3. Freda'sMom

    Freda'sMom Parent

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    143
    What's a little drunken felony breaking and entering anyway. As long as he didn't lie about it. :rolleyes:
     
  4. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    376
    District Attorney Michael Piecuch said he’s spoken with an academy official about Ede’s sentence and learned West Point is imposing additional punishment, including room restriction and extra duty hours.

    "What (Ede) is facing from the academy is much tougher than any ARD requirement," Piecuch said.

    Room restriction and extra duty hours is just sadistic. I hope he can survive it.

    Expulsion from the academy was never a consideration.

    The break-in "was an anomaly," Piecuch said. "If he achieved enough to be in the academy, he deserved to be in ARD."

    They start early with the sense of entitlement.
     
  5. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    376
    It's difficult to lie when you're caught in flagrante delicto.
     
  6. sheriff3

    sheriff3 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    317
    Are you kidding me? Is this young man really officer material? I just lost a lot of respect for WP! If this kid were an ROTC cadet he would be gone and looking at a very large bill!
     
    Axxif, SGTLee and payitforward like this.
  7. parentalunit2

    parentalunit2 Parent

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    159
    It took this article? Did you just recently gain internet access?
     
  8. sheriff3

    sheriff3 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    317
    Lets just say they are doing a fantastic job of chipping away at what little respect and regard I held them in...
     
  9. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    272
    Hm...hard to tell.

    If this idiot and his underage friends hopped the fence to drink in supposed privacy, I don't think that deserves more than a year in prison and a permanent loss of civil rights.
    If they started damaging navigation equipment, that's another story, as it is directly putting people's lives in danger.
     
  10. Sledge

    Sledge Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    321
    Agreed. This article contemporaneous to the event is a little more descriptive. They didn't destroy anything. An alarm went off and shut down the radar when the door was opened. http://www.dailyitem.com/news/colle...cle_c4b733e8-8fbf-11e4-b435-cbba8d3ec675.html.

    It's a VOR tower out in the middle of cornfields. https://goo.gl/maps/u9MU6

    Google maps aren't clear enough to see a fence. Though, it was clearly marked "No Trespassing."

    I'm not feeling the outrage some of your are. I have no problem with him being afforded a second chance, given the circumstances.
     
  11. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,577
    Likes Received:
    799
    Good practice for on-the-ground bru-ha-ha - if only they'd skipped the alcohol.
     
  12. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    280
    I'm not feeling outrage at all, just surprised at the difference between consequences of breaking the law for an ROTC cadet vs. a West Point cadet. Had this been an enlisted member, a felony breaking and entering charge could have easily resulted in a bad conduct discharge. As it is, the biggest concern for his superiors seems to be will he miss his flight to Germany or not.
     
    cb7893 likes this.
  13. hawk

    hawk ButterBar Dad

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    65
    VOR is not a Radar, and if an unauthorized entry shuts down the navaid shame on the FAA. The FAA spokesman was pretty clear:

    Not to excuse their behavior, but a Felony "causing a catastrophe" charge is an overreach. Criminal trespass is normally a misdemeanor in most states. $50 fine type thing. Burglary would normally require proof of intent to steal something. (Main difference between trespass & burglary)

    My bet is the only thing that was legit was the trespass charge, and in most states a deferred adjudication is fairly normal for youths with no criminal history. So I do not see this as special treatment from a prosecution perspective

    Several thoughts:
    • If this had happened while at USMA rather than on leave I suspect the response would have been far greater
    • Based on age, timing, and "reporting to Germany for duty" this is a yearling or cow. So I'm not sure that implications about USMA officer quality is warranted. Firsties just set fireworks off in the club... they don't need to go to cornfields
    • Pretty sad that the best thing the cadet and buddies could come up with to do while on leave is to go drink beer in a cornfield.
    • Definitely falls into the bad judgement category, and I do think some USMA special attention is warranted
    • To me this is another example of the problem a drinking culture creates. Stupid stuff, wasted lives
     
  14. hawk

    hawk ButterBar Dad

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    65
    Yep West Point is down the tubes... no redeeming merit.

    Do I need to dig out the similar examples for other Service Academies? ROTC is immune?

    How bout the USNA appointee I know of convicted of Burglary which resulted in $15-20k damage to a high school. Yet was allowed to report. (will be graduating soon)

    I understand your point, sort of. But much conjecture.
    1. Not sure there was a felony B&E charge. Again, these things creep into felony when there is intent to commit a crime once entered. Without that, B&E is more or less the same as Criminal Trespass, often used interchangeably.
    2. Arresting trooper said to Judge that he saw no intent to disrupt flight operations, etc.
    3. Nowhere did I see anything that USMA was concerned about him missing duty to Germany. That was the kid's lawyer. In fact, other than the prosecutor being satisfied that USMA would be punishing, we don't know what his punishment will be
    In the last 2-3 years we've seen USMA cadets:
    • Kicked out for underage drinking (2nd offense, typically)
    • MAPS grad not offered appointment for drinking violation
    • Boards, cancelled leave, cancelled summer training, and similar for two roommates jokingly referring to other with sexual slurs, which was overheard and reported as "hostile workplace". (Want to leave, break SHARP rules)
    Without a doubt the kid was stupid & should be punished. I'll be very surprised if he still does his AIAD or CTLT in Germany. (And I'd bet $5 it was not CTLT, too hard to get to risk with something like that). I suspect he'll be a member of the century club, be assigned a mentor, take some performance dings

    Can't speak to how ROTC cadets would be treated. I know the ones in our local schools are pretty good kids. But not immune from the occasional stupid idea/mistakes.

    I'd be very interested to hear examples of ROTC sophomores losing scholarships and owing bills for pleading on misdemeanors. Thought that was a junior/senior thing, but I could be wrong. Some quick goofling shows multiple ROTC cadet DUI cases plea bargained down to reckless driving and not disenrolled. But also lot's of "ROTC has become very strict about convictions".
     
  15. sheriff3

    sheriff3 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    317
    I did not say it has no redeeming qualities. My point is why should this bonehead get a second chance at what is considered one of the most prestigious colleges in the world? I have no problem with his punishment on the civilian side. He made a mistake and the punishment the civilian authorities meted out seems reasonable. Now for the WP folks. Here is a kid that is held to a much higher standard. There are literally thousands of kids that would have given ANYTHING to go to WP and for whatever reason did not get in. He did, but he made a poor choice and (in my opinion) should be disenrolled due to his actions. Because it was pleaded down to trespassing makes no difference, the original charge still happened right? It is not as if he was wondering aimlessly and happened to accidentally cross into a farmer’s field. He broke into a federal facility, period, end of discussion. Lastly, let’s not get into intent. In over 20 years of law enforcement I have yet to be able to gauge intent with 100% accuracy.
    Not necessary, I live near the AFA and probably hear more about these things more often than the norm.
    MSII in DS battalion was disenrolled this year for lying to cadre about consuming alcohol. The incident happened less than a week into the school year. He was put on LOA and eventually disenrolled and given a bill for over $40K.
     
  16. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,534
    Likes Received:
    835
    Looking at this map, these guys had to go out of their way to get to this place. Not sure they really needed to cross the fence here just to have a discrete place to drink. just look at the map, the whole darn place looks pretty discrete to me. I wonder if they would have made it to the top if the alarm didn't sound. Me...I would have stuck to a water tower, much better view.

    And really....who left the door unlocked.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  17. hawk

    hawk ButterBar Dad

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    65
    Don't disagree with your general premise. Just not sure we know what USMA will do. Or not.

    Also not sure I feel some of the derogatory comments toward USMA in this thread were warranted based on what was published.

    As to the kid, are we sure it was a pled down? Felony causing a castrophe? You think that was reasonable or could be proved in court?

    Criminal trespass seems to be the right charge. Fed code has trespass on FAA secure zone as 2 severity levels past base charge. But its still the correct charge.

    There is no excuse for what they did. I don't know enough about the circumstances to judge USMA's decision. They have separated for less.

    Does not appear to be a football player. If there was command influence its hidden pretty well.

    If they had separated him, I don't think anyone would have 2nd guessed the decision. So in that aspect its odd he was not.

    Understood. But with the arresting officer telling the judge he saw no indication they planned to damage or disrupt aviation, that would be hard to overcome in court.

    Who knows, maybe "they" got to the officer

    That's stout for sure. I know for USMA, and I think for the other SA as well, the payback would be required after affirmation oath. Night before the 1st day of class as a junior/cow.

    Just from reading recent accounts, lying or failure to report is a bigger issue in the ROTC space then the conviction itself. Many examples of waivers granted on what was clearly DUI pled down.

    Also appears to be on convictions, not charges.

    In any case, all of this will haunt them. It will resurface when they try to get TS clearance.
     
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,534
    Likes Received:
    835
    It is different for ROTC cadets that are on scholarship. If a cadet has a 4 year scholarship they can disenroll for any reason during their first year without a payback. Once they start day one of their sophomore year they are on the hook, if they are disenrolled after this point they will owe tuition paid to date including their first year. ROTC Scholarship cadets do not get the two years that the USMA gives.

    Not very long ago ROTC cadets could get by with a MIP or even a DUI that was reduced in charges, not anymore. A simple MIP or speeding ticket over a certain dollar amount can be cause for disenrollement, whether they lie about it or not. Cadet Command has now made this a Brigade decision and have taken it out of the hands of the individual battalions.

    Even if the ROTC cadet survives something like this, it would be very unlikely they would get the recommendation for Active Duty.

    Your right, I hope this cadet did not have his sights set on MI or Signal/Cyber....or anything else that requires a TS clearance. There could be some issues when that time comes.
     
  19. parentalunit2

    parentalunit2 Parent

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    159
    When I think about the things that I’ve seen cadets separated for over the years, it just really makes me wonder why they are retaining this young man. I saw someone get separated for quibbling. Yes, quibbling – and I’m under the age of 50! Legal charges back home would be an automatic. Trouble with the law? We don’t need your kind around here! I’m with sheriff3 on this one, not officer material. The high school high jinx should have been left back in high school. But second and third chances seem to be the norm now at the SAs. That goes for their leadership as well.
     
  20. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    280
    That's basically the issue I was trying to highlight, @parentalunit2 , it was not a condemnation of West Point in general. I just cannot fathom how, in the current climate, this cadet was retained when other cadets are cut loose for far less serious transgressions.

    As @Jcleppe pointed out, they apparently had to put some effort into being where they were, which indicates at a minimum an intent to do wrong. The DA and court system obviously agree, as the cadet is now convicted of a felony and on probation. Kids can be stupid - I get that. How he is still a cadet is the part I don't get.

    Good thing there's no such thing as a sealed record or dismissed charges as far as the Army is concerned. With little chance of receiving a security clearance, hopefully he won't be able to endanger any future troops with his stellar judgement.
     

Share This Page