West Point rated number one by Forbes as best University in America

[America's Finest]

People get paid everywhere while they are trained at their jobs. A service academy is just a really long training session but the pay is being earned just as much as pay earned while receiving training in other jobs.

 

[Antoinette]

Actually, it is in response by many that the academies are so unique and can't really be compared to a civilian college. I think from an educational and financial standpoint, they can be compared. Now, whether or not you agree with conclusion that a writer makes; is totally irrelevant and a separate issue all together. Just stating that the military academies and civilian colleges can indeed be compared. Both academically and financially. Yes, maybe the academy requires certain classes instead of a total student decided schedule; and the academies definitely include additional military related classes; (So do ROTC); but other than that, it's not too difficult to see a comparison between the military academies and civilian colleges/universities. So, from that respect, I say the forbes, princeton review, USNWR rankings, etc... can be a valid assessment of ranking schools. Including the academies. I may disagree with the results. I might think that a military academy should have certain other considerations. But I think there are some people who think that there's no comparison between the academies and civilian colleges/universities. When obviously there is; because just about every single cadet that ever attended a military again from the beginning until now, had some comparison of the two in their own mind when deciding which one to attend for an education.

Thanks for the explanation, CC! I "bolded" the words that summarize your position as I understand it. I also agree with you.

 

[Christcorp]

People get paid everywhere while they are trained at their jobs. A service academy is just a really long training session but the pay is being earned just as much as pay earned while receiving training in other jobs.

You are definitely welcomed to "see" it that way. I won't argue that. If you believe that the "PAY" is being "EARNED", then so be it. And I guess we can say that the "Summer/spring break/part time JOBS" that a traditional college student works to get their required spending money for books, computers, supplies, clothing, etc... is "Equally" earned. And the student who competed with 20 others for a college scholarship that included a "Stipend" also Earned it. However you want to see the money received, is fine. Whatever makes you feel right. But again; my comparison was that the "PURPOSE" of that money is very close or identical to the "PURPOSE" of the money earned, worked for, given to, etc... a civilian college student. (Minus the extremely small percentage who have a mommy and daddy giving them 100% of their requirements). And therefor, the financial and academic sides of the academy can be compared in such surveys/studies as Forbes, Princeton Review, USNWR, etc...

So, be proud Army; and be proud all other academies. Of the thousands of schools in the country, you all rank quite well. But no matter how you look at this topic, there are many students who use these types of studies and polls to determine their future education and career paths. And that is fine. The academy is competing with the civilian sector schools every year. Yes, the academy would love to have 100% gung ho career minded individuals applying, who's #1 priority is to serve their country and spend 20-30 years doing that. But that is not reality. And there's an even bigger variable. They KNOW THAT YOU ARE 17-18 YEARS OLD when you're applying. Which means your mind is going to change at least 2,436,643 in the next 5 years.But there are a lot of students/prospective applicants who do indeed look at the princeton review and other surveys/polls to see what the schools are like and how they rank. And unlike the "C" student who is thinking of attending the local Community College; the military academies are competing for the SAME STUDENTS that are applying to Privates, Ivy League, High Tech, and other prestigious name colleges and universities. These are usually very self motivated individuals are very proactive in their decisions. Including their educational future.

So that is why I think it's very important for surveys like Forbes, Princeton, USNWR, etc... to have this studies; and that the military academies rank so high on them. They accurately reflect most academic opportunities. And they are a good source of advertising as well as presenting an option that some may never had considered. later.... mike.....

 

[pedro4]

These rankings ignore so much!

Academy students are monitored closely for health and fitness. They are drug tested frequently (try that at Princeton), they get summer leave activities like no other. They learn discipline the way our primary schools used to teach it. they learn etiquette, how to write an RSVP, a thank you letter, table manners...etc...(I know...we already taught them that but the reinforcement is nice). How do you factor that into college rankings?

How many parents would not want that for their children? Seriously?

 

[Christcorp]

Pedro; I'm quite familiar with what the academy teaches and what they do. And you are correct that there is a unique personality to the academies. But the same can be said; that there are unique attributes; for just about every college/university in the country. There is a different demeanor if you attend Harvard compared to "The University of WhereverIcangetin". And while all those social skills are nice, I really hope that no one is choosing an academy over a civilian school because of those. I "guess" it's a nice benefit. But then again, so is studying abroad at Oxford. The most important and serious difference between the academies and the civilian schools, is the commitment the cadet enters into upon graduation. But other than that, I believe that the academies can be ranked and compared to civilian schools. Especially on academic and financial concerns/areas. later... mike.....

 

[mombee]

Well...not sure about this regarding cadets/mid's. The stipend part for ROTC, yes.

When I was a cadet (1979-1983) we didn't have computers but EVERYTHING that was "given" to us by USAFA came out of our money. There was nothing that was "free." "T" shop, shoe shop, etc., all were paid by us. That's why for the first year, a 4 dig got to keep $40/month from our pay of something like $352.00. The 3 dig year was $180, 2 dig was $240, and firstie pay was ALL of your check minus whatever was taken out for expenses, taxes, etc.

Oh and books, etc., were also out of our pay. The only "decent thing then" was on book "sell back" day when companies came to USAFA and you went to each one getting the best price you could for your used text books.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

Perhaps my poor attempt at humor was a little to esoteric for a zoomie. The 'computer' to which I was referring was manual with a center part that slid back and forth.

I think it was in the post WWII era that the SAs switched from an allowance to a salary.

And yes, America's Finest, you do earn a salary. I suppose if some people want to say their dog is a cat, we must allow them. However, to the rest of the world, it is still a dog.

 

[Maximus]

You are definitely welcomed to "see" it that way. I won't argue that. If you believe that the "PAY" is being "EARNED", then so be it. And I guess we can say that the "Summer/spring break/part time JOBS" that a traditional college student works to get their required spending money for books, computers, supplies, clothing, etc... is "Equally" earned. And the student who competed with 20 others for a college scholarship that included a "Stipend" also Earned it. However you want to see the money received, is fine. Whatever makes you feel right. But again; my comparison was that the "PURPOSE" of that money is very close or identical to the "PURPOSE" of the money earned, worked for, given to, etc... a civilian college student. (Minus the extremely small percentage who have a mommy and daddy giving them 100% of their requirements). And therefor, the financial and academic sides of the academy can be compared in such surveys/studies as Forbes, Princeton Review, USNWR, etc...

So, be proud Army; and be proud all other academies. Of the thousands of schools in the country, you all rank quite well. But no matter how you look at this topic, there are many students who use these types of studies and polls to determine their future education and career paths. And that is fine. The academy is competing with the civilian sector schools every year. Yes, the academy would love to have 100% gung ho career minded individuals applying, who's #1 priority is to serve their country and spend 20-30 years doing that. But that is not reality. And there's an even bigger variable. They KNOW THAT YOU ARE 17-18 YEARS OLD when you're applying. Which means your mind is going to change at least 2,436,643 in the next 5 years.But there are a lot of students/prospective applicants who do indeed look at the princeton review and other surveys/polls to see what the schools are like and how they rank. And unlike the "C" student who is thinking of attending the local Community College; the military academies are competing for the SAME STUDENTS that are applying to Privates, Ivy League, High Tech, and other prestigious name colleges and universities. These are usually very self motivated individuals are very proactive in their decisions. Including their educational future.

So that is why I think it's very important for surveys like Forbes, Princeton, USNWR, etc... to have this studies; and that the military academies rank so high on them. They accurately reflect most academic opportunities. And they are a good source of advertising as well as presenting an option that some may never had considered. later.... mike.....

CC, I think your reaching and I usually like your commentary, I don't know why you've dug in on this position?

Americas Finest (as I'm sure you know) is an active Cadet at West Point and from what my correspondence information is with him, he's not receiving money from "Mommy and Daddy". His parents are active duty service members, and I know AF applied years ago, before West Point was given this accolade. I also know that he is a very motivated cadet, looking forward to serving his Country.

 

[Christcorp]

Max; I'm not digging into anything. Matter of fact, I can totally bow out of this thread. Matter of fact, being there weren't any more comments, I sort of thought the thread was dying. But I do owe you a response to your question. You deserve that.

To be honest, I see too many people trying really hard to differentiate the academies from civilian schools; and basically saying that none of these polls, surveys, rankings, etc... mean anything and that academies really can't be compared. I am frankly bewildered by this train of thought. We are all quite knowledgeable with the uniqueness that the academies possess compared to civilian schools. But that's not to say that the academies can't be compared and ranked along side of their civilian counter parts. They are all educational institutions with the same basic goals. To educate an individual for future endeavors.

As for the money cadets get; let's drop it. I'm willing. It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that cadets get roughly $900 a month. Of which; depending on the particular academy; a certain amount is used to pay back loans. After which, they get the remaining. Whether a person wants to see it as pay or a stipend, it doesn't matter. The only thing that mattered was that they are receiving money. SIMILAR to civilian students who also receive money; usually from part time jobs. And this money; whether it's military or civilian originated, is basically used for the same things. Computers, clothes, entertainment, travel expenses, etc... Don't harp on defining the money. Concentrate on the purpose of the money.

Finally; as for your concern/comment where you said: "Americas Finest (as I'm sure you know) is an active Cadet at West Point and from what my correspondence information is with him, he's not receiving money from "Mommy and Daddy". I can only ask this question 1 way: "What the Hell are you talking about"??????? I have absolutely no idea why you brought this up. The only place I can even remember the words MOMMY and DADDY being mentioned, was indeed in the quote you posted of mine. And here is that section:

But again; my comparison was that the "PURPOSE" of that money is very close or identical to the "PURPOSE" of the money earned, worked for, given to, etc... a civilian college student. (Minus the extremely small percentage who have a mommy and daddy giving them 100% of their requirements). And therefor, the financial and academic sides of the academy can be compared in such surveys/studies as Forbes, Princeton Review, USNWR, etc...

I was simply comparing that the money earned, given, worked for, or whatever we want to call it; that cadets and civilian students receive, are being used for the same things. Then I excluded the MINORITY of civilian students who had their parents footing the entire bill. Including all their ancillary accessories. Now; how the heck you made that into a slam on America's Finest; I have absolutely no idea. Anyway, best to let that one just go and call it a misinterpretation.

Anyway, hope that sort of clarifies things. I don't think harping on defining a cadet's money is of any use. I see a similarity between the money they receive and a stipend. But that isn't important. My point all along was that it's totally feasible and appropriate for forbes, Princeton, USNWR, etc... to rank the military academies among all the other universities. Potential students and their parents view them all as schools. Yes, the academies have so unique requirements, rules, and commitments. But many of the civilian schools have their own little quirks too. Our academies are competing with Harvard, USC, UCLA, Michigan State, and the University of EveryStateInTheUnion for students. Having our academies ranked so high in these reviews and polls is a very good thing.

 

[Maximus]

I'm sorry CC, your post above was a long paragraph and maybe I didn't distinguish where you ended your commentary to AF, and then went on to a discussion of generic cadets getting money from their parents.

I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.

 

[Christcorp]

Sorry, but I think you still didn't get it. I wasn't talking about ANY cadets getting money from mom and dad. I was talking about the minority of civilian students getting their money from mom and dad, compared to the majority who had summer jobs, part time jobs, scholarships, etc.... That the NORMAL civilian students and the cadets both need money to pay for their books, clothes, entertainment, etc... The whole mommy/daddy was for the rare civilian students that DON'T need to work or anything because their parents were footing the entire bill. Anyway; all water under the sewer, or wherever water goes. later.... mike....

 

[America's Finest]

I'm sorry CC, your post above was a long paragraph and maybe I didn't distinguish where you ended your commentary to AF, and then went on to a discussion of generic cadets getting money from their parents.

I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Sorry, but I think you still didn't get it. I wasn't talking about ANY cadets getting money from mom and dad. I was talking about the minority of civilian students getting their money from mom and dad, compared to the majority who had summer jobs, part time jobs, scholarships, etc.... That the NORMAL civilian students and the cadets both need money to pay for their books, clothes, entertainment, etc... The whole mommy/daddy was for the rare civilian students that DON'T need to work or anything because their parents were footing the entire bill. Anyway; all water under the sewer, or wherever water goes. later.... mike....

It was a simple case of miscommunication. No need to make something out of nothing guys, carry on.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I missed this conversation.....because I was banned.



As a cadet we were frequenty told "your job is to go to school".

That's not a REAL job, but that's what you're paid to do. You fall under UCMJ at USCGA, USAFA, USNA, and USMA (USMMA is the exception). Because of that, you need to fall under the authority of the military, and because that isn't free, you get some money, not much, but enough.

A Service Academy can be equated to a normal college, no problem. Yes, people wear uniforms, and sometimes get yelled at. There are "rules" at normal college too, and people make mistakes at both. Frequently you will hear "academy students are the best of the best" or "the best and the brightest."

That's not true. The hope is to graduate the "best and the brightest", but before that happens, some of the fat needs to be trimmed away...they bad kids who lie or fight or steal.

It may be different for each academy, but CGA's Mission is to "GRADUATE young men and women with sounds bodies, stout hearts and alert minds" NOT to "train young men and women...."

 

[gunner1zeus]

I could resist no longer. Any attempt to compare civilian institutes to any of the military academies is an apples to oranges situation. A civ school produces leaders of business. The academies graduate leaders of men. In all branches of the military, a leader may be asked to give their lives and the lives of those they lead. Does any other university do that . NO. There can be no comparison the academies are rated #1. Thats my rant for the day
welcome back LITS (puddle pirate)

 

[LineInTheSand]

I could resist no longer. Any attempt to compare civilian institutes to any of the military academies is an apples to oranges situation. A civ school produces leaders of business. The academies graduate leaders of men. In all branches of the military, a leader may be asked to give their lives and the lives of those they lead. Does any other university do that . NO. There can be no comparison the academies are rated #1. Thats my rant for the day
welcome back LITS (puddle pirate)

I beg to differ. While at some point members of the military may be asked to give their lives in service to this great country, that isn't being done at a service academy (any more, obviously there are some exceptions in the past).

There are some very real outreach programs in the military, including the Dept of Defenses oldest outreach program, which introduces influential private sector civilian leaders with the military. It is a week long program. Without fail more than one 4-star (generals and admirals) compare the military to the business world, including productivity, efficiency and personnel management. Are there things that both "worlds" can learn from each other? Absolutely. Money management is money management, whether you're trying to manage unit funds or justify an office purchase.

To suggest that the two are unrelated is not entirely correct. There are different end products, but the relationships between the military and the private sector, and service academies and normal civilian colleges, are not apples to oranges....maybe more, red apples to green apples.

 

[Christcorp]

I too must disagree. Having experience with both military and civilian colleges for myself, many others, and now my son, I think while your pride in the academies is admirable, it's based more on emotion and not so much fact. And the part I really think is a slap; although I know for a fact you did not mean it to be; is to all the ROTC, AFROTC, NROTC, (And whatever the coast guard and Merchant Marines call their ROTC) and OTS officers out there. These individuals have put in just as much heart and sole as their academy brothers and sisters.

The ultimate commitment and dedication required of a military officer and enlisted for that matter, may make their non-academic time more demanding and disciplined compared to any civilian college or university. But academically, financially, and emotionally, we are still talking about 18-22 year old (On average); and for them, it's still a culture shock. It's still expensive. They still get home sick. They still have to now be responsible for their own actions. Granted; when an academy or ROTC student graduates, they are most times more mature, disciplined, and responsible than their civilian counter parts. But this thread is about surveys, polls, and studies that compare our country's different colleges and universities. And the majority of interest for that information is by 17 year olds who are seniors in high school. And for them, there's a lot more similarities between colleges, universities, and military academies than there differences. Many of us realize that the main differences are actually down the road. Anyway, think the ROTC students especially, as well as many of the civilian students, all deserve the respect and admiration of all of us.While there are some that financially don't even think about college, the majority of college students in all facets have worked very hard through their K-12 years to get accepted to fine colleges, universities, and academies; and to make a better life for themselves and hopefully society around them.

 

[gunner1zeus]

the part I really think is a slap; although I know for a fact you did not mean it to be; is to all the ROTC, AFROTC, NROTC, (And whatever the coast guard and Merchant Marines call their ROTC) and OTS officers out there. These individuals have put in just as much heart and sole as their academy brothers and sisters.

CC
at no time did I state or imply that officers from other sources were any less capable than their academy brethren. I can get in to enough hot water with things I say I don't need grief for things I didn't say.
There have been, are and will be fine officers produced from civilian institutes. What I stated is that our academies sole purpose is to produce officers for the armed services. this should be their only mission not worrying about competing with civ schools who have the luxury of designing a course of curriculum that can stress advance studies on individual subjects.Thats my rant for the day!!

 

[Christcorp]

Well that's why I said I know you didn't mean it that way. HOWEVER; you also just said:

What I stated is that our academies sole purpose is to produce officers for the armed services. this should be their only mission not worrying about competing with civ schools who have the luxury of designing a course of curriculum that can stress advance studies on individual subjects.

Unfortunately, that isn't their ONLY MISSION. Nor should it be. Just like the academy wanted "Well Rounded" students who applied to get in; they want well rounded officers to be commissioned. And also, the academy's educational degrees are very important to the future of these cadets. It appears that you're saying that it doesn't really matter if the academics of the academy are top notch in the country or in line with the lowest public school in the country.

Our military academies do, and Should, be competing with the nation's civilian schools. We have an all volunteer military. Whether it's Jr. Enlisted, Non-Commissioned Officers, or Commissioned Officers, the military needs to compete with the civilian market to get these individuals and retain them. While my son had wanted to be in the Air Force since he was a little kid, I still impressed on him to ensure that he had other options. He applied to no less than 5 other universities. He was accepted to all 5. 3 of them were full ride scholarships. 1 even included a monthly stipend so he wouldn't need to worry about spending money. So what made him still want the academy? There definitely would have been certain advantages to going to Michigan State, Tulane, USC, or any of the others. But one thing that was extremely important to him, and me, was the "Quality" education that the Air Force academy provided. If the educational level of the academy had a reputation of mediocre or that of a junior or community college, there is no doubt that he wouldn't have applied. He would have taken one of the other scholarships and if he still wanted to be an officer and serve his country, he would have done it through ROTC or OTS.

You are correct that the purpose of our academies is to produce officers for the armed forces. But to be a good officer, you need to have a good education. Non-Commissioned officers gain this good education through on-the-job training and many years of life experiences. Commissioned officers don't have that luxury immediately. They start with a good academic education and then add life experiences and OJT afterwards. All ROTC officers aren't the same when they commission because they all have different academic experiences. Depending on the school they graduated from. Some are definitely better than others. Well, this is one of the greatest advantages of the academy over ROTC; (Nothing against ROTC); just that the academy allows for continuity. All 1000 students graduating each year have the same academic experience. They all took the same core classes from the same instructors, with the same lesson plans. There's continuity there. But if you're going to commission 1000 officers per year as your core to the officer corp, then you have to have a quality education. The academy very much needs to compete with their civilian counterparts.And the academics combined with the military studies, physical fitness, and discipline is what ranks the service academies so high in the rankings. And that ranking is what helps attract more and better applicants each year.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Coast Guard calls its ROTC "Nonexistant".....because it doesn't exist.

 

[inlinelast]

West Point is Number One in another poll!

Worst 5 Colleges To Have a Booty Call

I do not see USNA, USAFA, USMMA or USCGA on the list anywhere....

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS122317+01-Sep-2009+PRN20090901

OnlineBootyCall Reveals The Most Abstinent Colleges

SAN DIEGO, Sept. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- As college students across the US head back to campus, many wonder about their school's national ranking and reputation. This fall term is no different. To ease the minds of all of those students, OnlineBootyCall has compiled a list of the worst colleges to hook up plus a bonus ranking of all the Top Booty Call Universities. How did your school measure up?

Worst 5 Colleges to Have a Booty Call

5. MIT - Massachusetts Institute of Technology
-- MIT is famous for its engineering and math programs, as well as their
many brilliant pranks. We applaud their deft use of irony, when they
named their two official school mascots: the "engineers" and
the "beaver." Sadly for students, the two never meet.

4. Oral Roberts University
-- Don't let the name fool you, Oral Roberts is a Christian college
located in Tulsa Oklahoma, where up until 2003, a strict dress code
forced men to wear button-down shirts and women to wear long skirts.
Its most notable alumnus is Ned Flanders. No booty for you here.

3. Princeton University
-- A common saying in the Ivy League is: "Harvard sucks, and
Princeton doesn't matter." For good reason, this forgettable
campus is bridled with stuffy Ivy leaguers too caught up in their
tight J. Crew vests and Burberry scarves. With names like Archibald,
Chance, or Skyler, you know these Harry Potter types are not
getting any action.

2. BYU - Brigham Young University
-- This would have made our top ten best schools for Booty Calls back in
the 1800's, when having multiple partners was the rage in Utah.
Nowadays, the Princeton Review ranks BYU as the #1 "Stone Cold
Sober School." Sadly, you'll find no parties and no booty
calls on this campus.


1. United States Military Academy at West Point
-- Just as they were ranked the #1 Best College in America by Forbes,
West Point also came first on our list. With a male to female ratio of
85%, your chances of hooking up are looking quite slim. West Point's
free tuition is great for the budget, but terrible for booty.