What a Joke

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But geographic diversity IS part of the approach, by law. Half of the appointees are based on geographic diversity.

Exactly! I wish we could afford to buy a house in our district to rent to future candidates! We are just one block into an under represented district. But I know of others who are just a block or two into a very competitive district, and although they are probably lower middle class, are up against applicants who go to very exclusive private schools that seem to have many appointees!
 
The majority of applicants are white males, so it makes sense that the majority of those receiving appointments would be white males. Many URMs just aren't interested in the military, and don't apply. Others just aren't qualified. DS is a white male living in an under represented district (by one block!). Before his MOC interview, he overheard the committee discussing the applicants, and it was apparent that they really did not have many who were anywhere close to being qualified. This, of course, was great for DS, who was given the principal nomination. I must add, however, lest some think that DS is a mediocre appointee, that he was told by both Senatorial committees that his resume was one of the most impressive they had ever seen. I feel certain that, if our MOCs didn't "talk" in order to nominate as many as possible, he would have gotten Senatorial noms as well.

!

I don't think that this is necessarily true. Honestly, we dont apply because we just don't know the academies exist. I didn't find out about the AFA until after it was too late to apply last year and had just learned about AFROTC the year before. My high school was made up almost entirely of URM but, interestingly enough, the top 5% was mostly made up of the few white students. Maybe 25% of us were Black and I could count the number of hispanics on one hand. So the AP program was pretty good, but every other part of my school's education program sucked( I looked at a couple of the posted resumes of kids applying to academies last year and, often times, I had never heard of more than half the ECs listed because my school/area didn't have them).

I can say that URM hs students are not at all necessarily less patriotic than white students. We are not less interested in the military, it's that many are never told about the opportunities. It has been my experience that the Blacks and Hispanics I've met are very supportive of military service, but its not something they had thought of doing themselves. The ones that have thought about it, enlist, and even most of them had never heard of ROTC or the academies. Even coming from a military family, I'm lucky that I learned about ROTC when I did because my family sure didn't know enough about it to mention it. During the application process and even after I got an ROTC scholarship(which unlike the the academies, I am told, doesn't take race into consideration btw) whenever I talked to someone about what wanted to do, I'd get "Cool, so...you're, like, enlisting? But I thought you were going to X University?" I had to explain over and over again that no, I was not enlisting and yes, I was still going to college but that I'd be training to be an officer. Some got it, but others remained confused. I think that that is the problem. Many students, URM and otherwise, just don't know these types of service opportunities exist, but I feel like this ignorance is worse amoung URMs. It's about what you are exposed to and, although there are URMs that live in the same educational environment as the white applicants with stunning resumes, I would venture to say that a greater percentage do not. I've moved around quite a bit and have attended schools that Were polar opposites of each other, in every school I attended where most students were white, the education system was good, in the ones made up of mostly URMs it was bad, schools with about equal distribution ranged from adverage to fairly good. Don't flame me, this has only been my personal experience with this matter, I understand that it is by no means representative. This is also not to blame kids with more opportunities for having them or to say whoe to the URM kid. I do wish that I had been exposed to this earlier, but I don't resent those that were, it just is what it is. I only wanted to point out that the aforementioned quote is not necessarily true.
 
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Kinnem:

Please show me the reference for that geographic diversity Law. If it is applicable I haven't seen it. Some States have no appointments each year and some have ten, twelve or more.
 
I agree, Non Ducor Duco, there seems to be a lack of information and guidance in many schools and the opportunities are lacking for many. I didn't mean to imply that there is a lack of patriotism among URMs. One must know the Academies exist in order to apply. I know exactly what you mean regarding the quality of the schools. And we have had the same uninformed comments about USNA. Many people don't have a clue what it is, or that it is, indeed, a college.
Congratulations on your ROTC scholarship! I wish you the best in your future endeavors!
 
Just wanted to let everyone know our experience, because it may (or may not) offer some encouragement to others applying. We are a non military family. Our DS received an appointment for the USNA Class of 2017 on March 8. He has wanted to be a Marine Officer ever since he attended a camping trip at Parris Island as a 2nd Year Webelo Scout. When it came time to apply for college, he applied to 5 schools all with Navy ROTC and the USNA. He also applied for the Marine option NROTC scholarship. He is your typical service academy applicant: White, middle class, varsity letter (wrestling), team captain, varsity swim team, JV cross country, Eagle Scout, community service, several clubs, Honor Society, etc. 3.97 unweighted GPA (got a b once in English). AP History, Chemisty, and English. Dual Enrolled and taking college calculus. 2100 SAT (640, 680, 780 (writing). 4th in his class. Summer Seminar. He applied for both senatorial and congressional nominations, but only received 1 nomination. I drove him to the MOC interview because it was an hour and 1/2 away and I was worried he would be late or get lost. There were 6 interviewing for the Naval Academy appointment. While my son was in his interview, I met the lone minority USNA candidate: Black, valedictorian of his class, athlete, musician, held a job while he was in school. My point is on the surface he was as good, if not better than my DS. I was sure he would get our MOC appointment. As time passed we were all prepared for plan B. Our MOC does not use a primary nomination. To this day, we do not know why our DS got the appointment. Did he want it more? Did he interview better? Was his personal statement more convincing? We'll just never know why. Lastly, while my son did get the appointment (for which we all feel extremely blessed and grateful), he did not receive an NROTC scholarship. Sometimes things just work out the way they're supposed to. Hard work and perserverance will pay off no matter where you land.
 
Kinnem:

Please show me the reference for that geographic diversity Law. If it is applicable I haven't seen it. Some States have no appointments each year and some have ten, twelve or more.

By definition each congressman and senator is entitled to an appointment each year (over-simplification, but good enough). If no one applies or is qualified thats another matter, but almost all (there are a few exceptions) have an appointment. So that accounts for about half the class - geographically diverse. The other half is not necessarily geographically diverse, but are selected based on other criterua. So both my statement is true, and your observation is also true.
 
I can say that URM hs students are not at all necessarily less patriotic than white students. We are not less interested in the military, it's that many are never told about the opportunities. It has been my experience that the Blacks and Hispanics I've met are very supportive of military service, but its not something they had thought of doing themselves.

So how do non URMs know academies exist and apply? How did you or other URM HS students find out about ROTC/Academies? I think there is no simple answer and it goes back to LITS comment concerning socio-economic and even cultural background.

You made some statements that when rearranged it gives a possible explanation

"although very supportive of military service"

"its not something they had thought do doing themselves"

so little attempt to learn about military opportunties.


HS students are not expected to read Heritage Foundation studies, but if you have time read the study below.

Who Bears the Burden? Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Recruits Before and After 9/11

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...of-us-military-recruits-before-and-after-9-11

In summary, we found that, on average, 1999 recruits were more highly educated than the equiv*alent general population, more rural and less urban in origin, and of similar income status. We did not find evidence of minority racial exploitation (by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). We did find evidence of a ?Southern military tradition? in that some states, notably in the South and West, provide a much higher proportion of enlisted troops by population.

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on ter*rorism began, as did the proportion of highly edu*cated enlistees

Put simply, the current makeup of the all-vol*untary military looks like America. Where they are different, the data show that the average sol*dier is slightly better educated and comes from a slightly wealthier, more rural area. We found that the military (and Army specifically) included a higher proportion of blacks and lower propor*tions of other minorities but a proportionate num*ber of whites. More important, we found that recruiting was not drawing disproportionately from racially concentrated areas
.
 
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So how do non URMs know academies exist and apply? How did you or other URM HS students find out about ROTC/Academies? I think there is no simple answer and it goes back to LITS comment concerning socio-economic and even cultural background.

You made some statements that when rearranged it gives a possible explanation

"although very supportive of military service"

"its not something they had thought do doing themselves"

so little attempt to learn about military opportunties.


HS students are not expected to read Heritage Foundation studies, but if you have time read the study below.

Who Bears the Burden? Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Recruits Before and After 9/11

.
Agreed, there is no simple answer. I found out because my cousin whose been in the Marine Corps for about 9 or 10 years now, had been in on the enlisted side for a while and wanted to become an officer. It was suggested to him that he go the NROTC route so that he could get a commission and get his degree at the same time. He took me up to his host Battalion a couple times and told me that they also had ROTC for the other branches. That's when I started looking into it.

Honestly, I think it's all up to chance. I couldn't say who's to blame for that or even if there is anyone to blame at all. All that can be done really is to spread the word and let whoever's interested do the work. IMO, the responsibility for giving URMs special help ends with telling them the opportunity exists. Those who are qualified and determined enough will find a way to get it on their own, I did. My parents had nothing to do with my college or scholarship applications. I asked for help when I needed it, and for a piece of advice here and there, but I knew it was my responsibility to earn it and that complaining about playing catch up was completely pointless. In truth, we are not all created equal. If we were, there wouldn't be people with physical and mental disabilities. And it is really no ones responsibility to make us all equal. The only responsibility of the government on this front, i believe, is to make sure that the opportunity exists for all to earn it. Part of that is getting the word out.
 
Geographic Diversity Law

"Geographic Diversity Law" is a term coined to address the US Code that distributes qualified candidates across all congressional districts.

Known as "10 USC CHAPTER 603 - UNITED STATES NAVAL ACADEMY"
Dicatates where appointments come from....
Makes for good reading:
http:||uscode.house.gov|download|pls|10C603.txt

(change '|' to '/' as I can't post links)

Notice that preference is given to:
Children of Military Parents (see Presidential Nom)
Current Enlisted (see Sec of Navy Nom)

So yes, a fully qualified nom from Wyoming may be chosen over a "more" fully qualified nom from say Maryland.
Or, a fully qualified nom with an active/retired parent may be selected over a "more" fully qualified nom because he/she has access to a Presidential slot that the other candidate may not.....
Notice that I was careful to state that all candidates must be "fully qualified" (i.e. some minimum level)

I think picking March Madness brackets is easier than explaing this process....
 
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URM Does Not Mean They Grew Up at a Disadvantage

My problem with URM's is simply this.

In many areas of our country there are URM's who are doing very well and have been very successful. So in my area a URM may live next door and spend the same number of years in the same education system, at the same socio-economic level, with a stable household, and even live in a better house and drive a better car than me..... BUT, on their application they get to check a box that gives them preference over a better academic me.....Why???
 
So how do non URMs know academies exist and apply? How did you or other URM HS students find out about ROTC/Academies? I think there is no simple answer and it goes back to LITS comment concerning socio-economic and even cultural background.

You made some statements that when rearranged it gives a possible explanation

"although very supportive of military service"

"its not something they had thought do doing themselves"

so little attempt to learn about military opportunties.


.

A person must have at least SOME knowledge in order to ask a question, or to know what questions to ask. If the military is just not a part of one's culture, and if a student's school is not providing the information, many military opportunities are not even on that student's radar. To them, the military means enlisting. In the case of Non Ducor Duco, he "just happened" to hear about ROTC from a cousin.
 
My problem with URM's is simply this.

In many areas of our country there are URM's who are doing very well and have been very successful. So in my area a URM may live next door and spend the same number of years in the same education system, at the same socio-economic level, with a stable household, and even live in a better house and drive a better car than me..... BUT, on their application they get to check a box that gives them preference over a better academic me.....Why???

Are you sure that the URM who lives next door is chosen simply because they got to check that box? If he/she is at the same socio-economic level, his/her credentials may be just as good as yours. And, frankly, there's more to it than who is the better academic.
 
. . . All that can be done really is to spread the word and let whoever's interested do the work. IMO, the responsibility for giving URMs special help ends with telling them the opportunity exists. . .

I tried and I pretty much gave up. I have been a FFR since 2004. At the begining I went out my ways to visit inner city schools and participated in URM supporting events. What I learned was, perhaps it's me being a bad speaker or lookg scary or whatever, I felt like I was talking to a wall. Perhaps it's a generation gap - my simple message of West Point will give you a foundation to be successful in life and if you give 100%, you have a chance, not guarntee. But it seemed like the typical attitude was why work hard to get into West Point when it's not guaranteed that I will get in or "it's not for me." The worst reply I ever got from a student talking about West Point was (after I explained that after graduating from West Point that she will have to serve in the Army for 5 years) "I can't do that, serving in the Army is like serving the Devil." I don't think she was joking.

It is easy say "spread the word" or give "special help," but from my personal experience it's almost imposible to do.
 
Are you sure that the URM who lives next door is chosen simply because they got to check that box? If he/she is at the same socio-economic level, his/her credentials may be just as good as yours. And, frankly, there's more to it than who is the better academic.

You misread my post. Two identical candidates grow up next to each other, attend the same schools, have the same quals....BUT one gets the URM checkbox.... Which one do you think they pick???
 
You misread my post. Two identical candidates grow up next to each other, attend the same schools, have the same quals....BUT one gets the URM checkbox.... Which one do you think they pick???

I didn't misread. Maybe I'm naive, but in this case, I don't believe they pick a candidate simply based on race. No two candidates are identical.
 
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I tried and I pretty much gave up. I have been a FFR since 2004. At the begining I went out my ways to visit inner city schools and participated in URM supporting events. What I learned was, perhaps it's me being a bad speaker or lookg scary or whatever, I felt like I was talking to a wall. Perhaps it's a generation gap - my simple message of West Point will give you a foundation to be successful in life and if you give 100%, you have a chance, not guarntee. But it seemed like the typical attitude was why work hard to get into West Point when it's not guaranteed that I will get in or "it's not for me." The worst reply I ever got from a student talking about West Point was (after I explained that after graduating from West Point that she will have to serve in the Army for 5 years) "I can't do that, serving in the Army is like serving the Devil." I don't think she was joking.

It is easy say "spread the word" or give "special help," but from my personal experience it's almost imposible to do.

I disagree MemberLG. You in fact were successful. You may not have agotten a positive response, but you did, in fact, "spread the word". :thumb:
 
You misread my post. Two identical candidates grow up next to each other, attend the same schools, have the same quals....BUT one gets the URM checkbox.... Which one do you think they pick???

So what?
1. It's a coin toss at that point
2. If two candidates are exactly equal, and selecting one of the other can serve some other goal (not better goal, other goal) then they are right in picking the person who serves that goal.
 
I tried and I pretty much gave up. I have been a FFR since 2004. At the begining I went out my ways to visit inner city schools and participated in URM supporting events. What I learned was, perhaps it's me being a bad speaker or lookg scary or whatever, I felt like I was talking to a wall. Perhaps it's a generation gap - my simple message of West Point will give you a foundation to be successful in life and if you give 100%, you have a chance, not guarntee. But it seemed like the typical attitude was why work hard to get into West Point when it's not guaranteed that I will get in or "it's not for me." The worst reply I ever got from a student talking about West Point was (after I explained that after graduating from West Point that she will have to serve in the Army for 5 years) "I can't do that, serving in the Army is like serving the Devil." I don't think she was joking.

It is easy say "spread the word" or give "special help," but from my personal experience it's almost imposible to do.

This does seem to be the prevailing attitude in many inner city schools. That was why I made the previous comment about many URMs being uninterested. But there are those rare exceptions who, if given the information and the opportunity, will go for it. Often times, we think the system is unfair to white males, but for those students who are stuck in a poor school system, it can be unfair for them. It is what it is.
 
I tried and I pretty much gave up. I have been a FFR since 2004. At the begining I went out my ways to visit inner city schools and participated in URM supporting events. What I learned was, perhaps it's me being a bad speaker or lookg scary or whatever, I felt like I was talking to a wall. Perhaps it's a generation gap - my simple message of West Point will give you a foundation to be successful in life and if you give 100%, you have a chance, not guarntee. But it seemed like the typical attitude was why work hard to get into West Point when it's not guaranteed that I will get in or "it's not for me." The worst reply I ever got from a student talking about West Point was (after I explained that after graduating from West Point that she will have to serve in the Army for 5 years) "I can't do that, serving in the Army is like serving the Devil." I don't think she was joking.

It is easy say "spread the word" or give "special help," but from my personal experience it's almost imposible to do.

I can see that this is not an easy thing to do either and it takes up a lot of time, I commend you for attempting anyways. i'm just saying that a "check in the box" for URM applicants might not be the best way to make things "fair". Fair is not giving the URM kid a few yards head start, its telling him he's running a damn race so he'd better get focused if he wants the prize at the end :shake:. Of course there will be a lot of people who won't think much of the idea when presented to them, but there will be others who see it for what it is, a great opportunity, and be willing to do the work. The numbers are disproportionate, but there are highly qualified URMs that would apply for the academies or ROTC if knew about them, and even the ones that are interested but arent highly qualified can, if they learn about them early enough, work to become so. I always maintained a high GPA(4.16), did dual enrollment, stayed far away from trouble, etc. and everything worked out in the end, but I can honestly say if I'd known a few years ago what I know now, I would have loaded up my résumé and applied for the AFA as well. Sure, I played a varsity sport here and join a club there, but if I had understood how important ECs and such were to getting what I knew by senior year was what I wanted more than anything else in life, I know I would have worked harder, done more, and left less to chance. IDK, I just feel like there are too many good people/leaders falling through the cracks because of circumstance and it scares me to think about just how close I was to missing out on what has been, quite honestly, the best thing that has ever happened to me in my short life.
 
Impossible to win this conversation!

All that can be done is to continue to send URM to the academies and watch them knock the ball out of the park. That will silence the naysayers. I am looking forward to the movie 42 that coming out later this spring about Jackie Robinson. Each step that is taken by URM is meet with this type of resistance. Ignore it and continue to take advantage of all opportunities and watch are Mids/Cadets flourish. This argument has happen with ever URM groundbreaking achievement and will continue for many years to come.

It is truly sad that URM are thought of as substandard without many even knowing anything about them. Prejudging someone is called _________!
If many of you would get to know these young people willing to serve you would be shocked at what they are bringing to the table. Great young people and we should all be proud of them all!
 
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