What's happening with Army ROTC?

[gojack]

Does anyone know if an AFROTC scholarship is as competitive?

AF, Navy ROTC programs are both more competitive than the Army.
(Army is bigger, needs more officers)

If you are interested in a less competitive program, look into the Army National Guard/Reserve S.M.P. scholarships. link

It's more complicated and may vary a little state to state for example; in TX out-of-state cadets get in-state tuition if they join the TX NG.
With careful planning, the first 2 years of tuition can be paid back by the Student Loan Repayment Program (Up to $50,000)
Check your state NG for details, your state's schools will have more info on their web pages.
What state are you in?

Decent SMP overviews HERE, HERE and HERE

 

[Pima]

Good point to explain that size does matter when it comes to scholarships.

AF is the smaller of these 3 branches.

Navy is the next largest. Navy can be just as competitive because of their system, which is like the Army where dets are tied to your scholarship.

Do not concern yourself with competitiveness among branches, concern yourself with serving in the branch you want to be in for many yrs.

 

[The OC Josh]

IMHO: I believe when the Army has more applicants for ROTC they get more selective, and award the budgeted number of scholarships to stronger candidates.

GoJack
Maybe you could explain your background to us?
Quoting numbers and links is great and you do it alot which can be helpful, but have you talked to anyone in the program that would know what is going on?

Every PMS I talked to last year mentioned that their scholarships were drastically cut. Numerous other posters have confirmed this.

I absolutely agree that in this economy, the competition is definitely tougher. However, this issue is definitely compounded with fewer scholarships

 

[cjs]

GoJack
Maybe you could explain your background to us?
Quoting numbers and links is great and you do it alot which can be helpful, but have you talked to anyone in the program that would know what is going on?

Every PMS I talked to last year mentioned that their scholarships were drastically cut. Numerous other posters have confirmed this.

I absolutely agree that in this economy, the competition is definitely tougher. However, this issue is definitely compounded with fewer scholarships

You said exactly what I was thinking.

Every single PMS and ROO that we spoke with or sat with in dealing with my son said exactly the same thing. Scholarships to their schools were cut, some by about 50%.

 

[goaliedad]

I think everyone is right here. Scholarships (especially 4-year) are down drastically (about 25% for 4-year), but the MS1 count is only down about 15%. The difference can easily be accounted for in 3-year AD's (which generate MS1's - I think even Clarkson mentioned having these now) and increase in SMP (awarded through a different channel but also generates MS1's).

Unfortunately, there isn't a complete accounting of how the program is managed. Perhaps that is for the best, because if they did mention how things were being administered, many candidates would try to game that system. Of course, nobody around here falls into that category

 

[gojack]

Every PMS I talked to last year mentioned that their scholarships were drastically cut. Numerous other posters have confirmed this.

The OC Josh,
Army scuttlebutt tends to take on a life of it's own, it's wrong 99% of the time. Unless you can find a memo that amends the Army Comptrollers budget, assume it is accurate. I am an old, broken-down, tired, retired, Dad. After 30 yrs in various gov. agencies I am also a cynic, rumors and hearsay are usually wrong. Find an memo or an article that reports a large cutback in ROTC, or assume it's just scuttlebutt.

1) Military Times (Sep 21, 2009) U.S. Army Cadet Command, which provides most of the Army’s second lieutenants through ROTC, is being asked to produce more 2nd lieutenants, "In 2001 the requirement was 3,900 new officers. In 2006 the number went up to 4,500. Next spring the number will be 5,100 and by 2011 5,350." The Army’s structure is changing, Aswell said, and it needs more officers for its changing brigade combat teams. “Before, a brigade staff might have two or maybe three majors in it, now it’s not unusual to have seven eight or nine,” Aswell said. Previously a brigade might have had eight or 10 captains. “Now there might be 15 or 20.” The Army is short about 3,000 majors and captains, said Col. Paul Aswell, chief of the Army’s Officer Division, the officers needed to staff the Army’s brigade combat teams. Producing them can take years. “You want officers (who) are experienced, (who) understand what they’re doing professionally,” Aswell said. “There’s no way to produce them except by bringing them in as lieutenants.”

2) Officer recruiting on track (Army News Service, Feb. 12, 2009)
Here: "Maj. Gen. Arthur M. Bartell, who is charged with recruiting officers as commander of U.S. Army Cadet Command, said the Army was on track to meet its mission of commissioning 4,500 officers for FY09. For FY10 that number will increase to 5,100 and in FY11 officer growth will top out at 5,350. "More than 60 percent of our lieutenants come through the ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps) program," he said."

3) 2010 Latest News Texas A&M University: Texas A&M Army ROTC Recruits Largest Scholarship Class In History

Again, the ratio of SMP, RA, AR, NG, 2, 3, 3AD, 4 yr... Those are not published anywhere I can find. (or national vs college awarded scholarships)

 

[gojack]

I think everyone is right here. Scholarships (especially 4-year) are down drastically (about 25% for 4-year), but the MS1 count is only down about 15%. The difference can easily be accounted for in 3-year AD's (which generate MS1's - I think even Clarkson mentioned having these now) and increase in SMP (awarded through a different channel but also generates MS1's).

goaliedad,
You make sense.
IMHO: It would be logical that if the Army is asked to do more with less, cutting back on 4yr scholarships and increasing 2,3,3AD scholarships would be in order.

 

[Pima]

Yes and no.

What occurs if you increase those yrs is an inequity in the officer ratio. There is more to just giving out scholarships. Manpower strengths are also taken into consideration. Every branch has a set % of Officer to Enlisted. They also have a set number of Flag to Field to Company grade. By increasing the 2,3 yr scholarships they MAY have too many officers in the company grade, and in the officer to enlisted ratio.

It may be cheaper in the short run, but in the long run it could cause the need to do a RIF to get the numbers back in line. Look at the AF RIF that is on the horizon for this yr. It only includes a few commissioning yrs. In other words they realized that from a manpower standpoint they are bulging in these yr groups. This was true back in the 90's too. They only hit 2 yr groups.

Additionally, by reducing the 4 yr scholarships, then they get into a cycle that next yr they will need to increase the 2,3, or more OTC commissions to get those numbers up. And that cycle will go on for yrs because it is hard to play catch up.

There really is more than a fiscal reason of why they give out the amount they do, and it is from long term strategic planning review. For all anyone knows the Army can be saying this yr they are reducing the amount not due to budgetary constraints, but the fact that they are bloated for the class of 14 and they need to create an equilibrium for these 2 yrs so there will not be an unneeded RIF in the future.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

By increasing the 2,3 yr scholarships they MAY have too many officers in the company grade, and in the officer to enlisted ratio.

not understanding the logic here.

 

[aglages]

I may be 'misremembering" but weren't their reports this past year from freshmen students in college that the AROTC was reducing it's in-college scholarships? I may have this mixed up with AFROTC or NROTC in-college scholarships but I seem to remember reports from students that joined AROTC without 4 year scholarships finding out that the AROTC program was not going to offer them 3 year scholarships this year.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Yes. That happened last year. This does not equate with a RIF, downsizing or the need for fewer officers.

 

[Pima]

JAM,

Here's the logic. If they met their quota for Class of 13 and 14, but this yr they offer more 2 and 3 yr scholarships to save money, that means Class of 13 and 14 will be bulging.

They will all come on line at the exact same time as a Company Grade officer. Now, because there are specific ratios as I have mentioned, it could place an imbalance in the ratio, especially if the previous yr groups are not voluntarily leaving when their commitment is up. That is what causes the need for a RIF in certain yr groups.

Sometimes, the RIF doesn't even occur, instead, the military will cut them loose prior to commissioning because they see from a manpower POV that they are too heavy in that yr.

Why do promotion rates vary? Manpower! Why do you wait to pin on? Manpower! An O3 can not be promoted (not talking frocking...actual pay) until the Field grade is in balance from a ratio standpoint with Company grade. Why do they slow down/speed up promotion boards? Manpower ratios.

This ratio also goes down to the level of O3 to O2 to O1. Bring too many on line in 13 and 14, means the 02 to 01 ratio is off kilter. Thus, if you expand the 2,3 while decreasing the 4, they will jeopardize their manpower ratios.

I hope that explains why increasing 2 and 3 scholarships could not be the route they are going.

Conversely, they may say we need more for 13, and 14 to keep the ratio, thus they will increase that number.

This is a very difficult topic for people who have no military background/affiliation to understand. To many they have yet to comprehend that the military is like any other corporation. They do strategic planning regarding their personnel. That includes, assuming from historical data X% will leave as soon as possible. However, they cannot predict when a war will occur or foresee the economy contracting. Both of these issues impact the military severely. When the economy contracts members stay because a paycheck is better than no paycheck. This causes a problem in the ratio. That means they need to re-work their plans.

Many times it could mean fewer ROTC scholarships, or it could be as drastic as the AF by saying we have canceled OTC for a fiscal yr, released ROTC scholarship students months before graduation AND a RIF. Not saying that is what is occurring in the Army, just illustrating why/how this may occur.

Yes. That happened last year. This does not equate with a RIF, downsizing or the need for fewer officers.

If they are offering less 3 yr...YES, it does equate with downsizing or the need for fewer officers. They are saying in a very quiet voice, that from a manpower standpoint the INN is almost FULL!

RIF's are not going to occur in the scholarship world, that is an AD issue.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Well, that's not really how it works.
First - the Army does not meet their quota from 4 year scholarships and they don't have bulging classes. If they have a large class they will draw the line higher and commission more into the Reserves or Guard. This is something the AF and Navy do not do. The Army can easily control the quality and quanitity of AD officers this way. Don't equate the Army with the AF or Navy.

go back and re-read ScoutPilot's posts. The Army has been very short of Company grade officers. They also had a huge shortage of Field grade officers - honestly, I don't know if that shortage of a couple of years ago has been relieved.
The Army looks a current needs and future needs. Since the enlisted force has actually been expanding they need many more company grade officers. Remember the Army operates completely different than the AF. During the height of Iraq, many company grade officers were promoted quickly - making Capt in three years and many resigned their commissions leaving a huge hole in Field grade officers.

The whole thing with scholarships - Cadet Command in responsible for this and they have been making major changes and tweaking the way scholarships are awarded. For a while they gave out 4 years like candy and it didn't work out too well. So they changed the system. In the meantime, things calmed down in Iraq and the economy collapsed making the Army look more palatable to high schoolers and their parents.

Like several have said - you can still enroll and commission in AROTC without a scholarship. Some battalions are quite large with few scholarship cadets. For those who need assistance and are committed to the Army, SMP can provide that. In some cases, it's a better deal than a 4 year scholarship.

The important thing for Army ROTC Cadets to realize is this - your place on the OML will determine whether or not you get Active Duty. If you are not high enough on the OML, you will commission into the Guard or Reserves. Some Cadets only want Guard or Reserves and there are special scholarships for this. The Wars have taken a toll on some units heavily and they are in great need of soldiers. If you want AD, keep your grades up and do well at LDAC.

 

[aglages]

Yes. That happened last year. This does not equate with a RIF, downsizing or the need for fewer officers.

It may not equate to a RIF, downsizing or the need for fewer officers, but it does beg the question of whether the Army is increasing 3 year scholarships while decreasing 4 year scholarships. If they are reducing both 3&4 year scholarships then you're suggesting that they have enough non-scholarship cadets that are being commissioned to meet their recruiting goals without the incentive of 3&4 year scholarships? I find that hard to believe. Especially considering that when they were giving out 4 year scholarships like candy AND offering in-college scholarships to everyone breathing, they were having difficulty meeting their recruiting goals. While I understand the economy may be having an impact on officer retention and an increase in applicants, it generally increases the need of those entering and already in college. More students needing FA = more students applying to AROTC = less students able to afford college without an AROTC scholarship.

 

[Pima]

This is very true Aglages.

The economy and the rising cost of college has made ROTC scholarships an attractive route.

I also think it should be highlighted that most posters here state there will be a decrease in 4 yr scholarships when for yrs they have handed them out like candy. The AF and the Navy have not had that luxury for at least 2 yrs.

It is also true for the AFROTC and NROTC that not every cadet is a scholarship recipient. At our DS's (look JAM, I used a pronoun) university only 1/3 of the cadets are scholarship. To insinuate that ever AFROTC and NROTC cadet are scholarship is not only false, but incorrect.

If the Army is reducing the 4 yr scholarship, nobody should take the leap it is the FY11 budget, it can honestly be manpower planning. It is important to see the bigger picture, which is not AROTC scholarships, but the ARMY.

ROTC is the little sibling or red-headed cousin. First manpower level will always be USMA. Second, ROTC. Third, OTC. If you enter any ROTC program understand the system and the commitments within the system AND branch. Understand, that until you raise your hand on graduation day, that a lot can and will happen.

JAM is 1000% correct, get good grades at college. The scholarship will not save you. Understand the higher the grades you get and the more involved in the det you are will impact your military career. When you are a C300 you will meet a board to determine your career. Your grades and your det commanders rec will be a big factor!

Finally understand the class of 10, 5 yrs ago in the candidates position never envisioned that they would go 4 yrs on scholarship to be told, thanks, but no thanks 3 months to graduation. Nobody here or anywhere can predict the DOD AD budget for 2015.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

If they are reducing both 3&4 year scholarships then you're suggesting that they have enough non-scholarship cadets that are being commissioned to meet their recruiting goals without the incentive of 3&4 year scholarships?

Yes. ROTC units get a number of 'walk-on'. They test the waters and decide if the Army is for them. Typically, getting a scholarship will not make or break their decision to particiapate and pursue a commission.
More students needing FA = more students applying for 4 year scholarship = raising the bar higher.
Students who are currently in college can get other financial assistance from the Army besides a scholarship. Like, I said - at many colleges (typcially state schools) the benefits from SMP would outweigh the value of a 3 year scholarship. A three year scholarship is simply a carrot on the stick. It is a recuiting tool for high school seniors. Not getting one or not applying for a scholarship does not keep you from getting aid.
I don't have the numbers but I would be interested to see how the numbers of SMP cadets have run over the past few years.

 

[Pima]

Students who are currently in college can get other financial assistance from the Army besides a scholarship. Like, I said - at many colleges (typcially state schools) the benefits from SMP would outweigh the value of a 3 year scholarship. A three year scholarship is simply a carrot on the stick. It is a recuiting tool for high school seniors. Not getting one or not applying for a scholarship does not keep you from getting aid.

It may not be the make or break with getting aid, but as a parent of 2 students in college, it is a make or break on which college they attend.

I don't know what you know about FA or merit, but colleges are not throwing money around from the sky! As a parent with 2 kids in college, the FA amount we received for DD with DS in college was $5500. Her bill is 18K. She is IS at a state university. That means I owe 12K a yr out of pocket.

A 3 yr scholarship is not a carrot, because many parents can't afford yr 1! That financial hardship exists everyday with us parents who can't get a Pell or other FS perks, but also are rubbing 2 dimes together to pay for the tuition. In other words, great you get yr 2-4 paid for, but please tell me how we will pay for yr 1! That is reality for many ROTC scholarship recipients.

 

[gojack]

There is no 'glut' of Army cadets in the pipeline.

Army Accessions leaders discuss '09 success story

Oct 29, 2009
* The U.S. Army Recruiting Command enlisted 70,045 new Soldiers against a requirement for 65,000.
* U.S. Army Cadet Command's mission of 4,500 new second lieutenants via ROTC was exceeded by 92.
* Of the Officer Candidate School's 2,450 graduates, Army recruiters accounted for 1,604 of them, the most ever for USAREC.
* ROTC made mission for second lieutenants for the first time since 2005.

 

[Pima]

Interesting link, I would love anyone with AROTC knowledge answer my question.

According to the link they give praise to recruiters. Is that how the system works for AROTC? Do recruiters recruit ROTC candidates?

"A lot of what the Army has achieved falls squarely on the shoulders of approximately 8,000 recruiters around the world, and they deserve the credit for the 2009 success," the major general said.

"I think the most important thing that helps us with success - whether you're talking money, resources, or advertising - is having the right number of recruiters; (those) Soldiers, on the ground," he said. "That's what it really comes down to."

I am not trying to cause a firestorm, just trying to learn the system, and hopefully inform posters who are weary of asking this question if they are applying for multiple scholarships!

In the AF the recruiter is not a player, their job is to get people to enlist, not to apply for ROTC scholarships. In no shape or form are they a player regarding ROTC.

I also think making goal for the 1st time since 05 is reflective of the economy. Housing, unemployment and the DOW went BOOM in 06. It has continued down the negative road since that time while colleges still increase the tuition. It is not a shocker that more applicants are applying to pay for college.

The statement money makes the world go round is not far off. Not saying I agree with the premise of joining the military to pay for college, just saying I understand the premise in these economical times.

 

[DougBetsy]

Son never heard boo from a stereotypical recruiter while he was navigating the AROTC scholarship process last year.

Now, maybe the article is referring to the Recruiting Operations Officer (ROO) at each battalion. It was our experience that he/she provided a wealth of information and reassurance during the process. But they never reached out to pitch ROTC. We had to seek them.