what's next

Thank you KP2001. Between his uncle passing and his aunt (55 yrs old - living just 5 miles from KP) having a stroke, and knowing she would be alone, he was torn. Unfortunate situations, but my plebe is not only true to his country...but to his family. The hardest part is that he will be out of "uniform" for the first time in 7 years. He was a Young Marine, a graduate of a Military High School and then a Plebe. I think he is feeling like a fish out of water...excuse the pun. There are many directions he can take, although, I think that he is going to try KP again. He is certainly not a quitter. As I said in my earlier post...he bleds KP. I guess these are the qualities I am most proud of :smile:as his parent. He becomes stronger with every set back. He will be fine. A little shaken right now, who wouldn't be?

Yours is the most distressing story I have heard and a few others were plenty heart wrenching. I had heard the philosophy was "only under unique circumstances" would set backs be offered. This in my mind is a unique circumstance. Was all of this known ?

I feel for your son and for KP because this doesn't bode well for the current students. As I have said in previous posts it may eventually make KP the gem
of the SAs but at what cost to the current students matriculating through a system in great flux.
 
................ You are right, the pendulum is grossly to one side currently and the lack of respect for the input of the Review Board seems to leave The Board in somewhat of a pointless existence. Sad. You are also correct in noting that there are differences between those who are not even trying to (academically OR regimentally) succeed and those who are trying very hard, but given certain sets of circumstances (sometimes not of their own doing), fail. The failure is not the thing we should focus on - it's the will to get up and try again and make it right. That's the kind of person I want on my team! The Review Board has most often sorted out which is which and made wise and thoughtful determinations in the past in this regard. ................

Question(s) for the Alum on this board, all alum, with a special shout out to Jasperdog and Kp2001.

We know many alum fought hard to get "one of their own" at the helm"......seems very reasonable.

In your opinion, is this real or not? (Pendulum far to one side, Review board being marginalized, one strike you're out, etc.etc.)

If this is real, is this what needs to happen to get the academy back on track and it is just the price this group of mids/plebes must pay?

If this is not real, and these observations and opinions have no basis, can you please help us understand? (most on here do not have your experience, insight, and ties back to KP)

Thanks
 
Money?

Has anyone considered that the current situation may be due to a budgetary squeeze? It appeared as though the class of 2014 may have been oversubscribed (342 Plebes). The 2010 USMMA graduating class was 198.
If the academy is over its authorized enrollment, the administration may be faced with mandatory cost reductions and we are seeing it in the form of higher standards and atypical disenrollments. You might equate it to layoffs in the business world. Of course its small solace to those effected, but it may be something beyond any ones control.
 
Yours is the most distressing story I have heard and a few others were plenty heart wrenching. I had heard the philosophy was "only under unique circumstances" would set backs be offered. This in my mind is a unique circumstance. Was all of this known ?

I feel for your son and for KP because this doesn't bode well for the current students. As I have said in previous posts it may eventually make KP the gem
of the SAs but at what cost to the current students matriculating through a system in great flux.

Hi Jessibee2013.

Yes, the academy was well aware of the situation. Instead of "fun" sailing days or going into the city on liberty, he was at the hospital with his aunt or doing her laundry at her home, taking her to doctors appointments etc. Whenever he got the chance to be there he was, which took him away from visiting us, but we understood his need to see her safely through. A fine young man in my books! That is why they unanimously agreed on a 100 set back. To comment on "Donar's" comment, yes, I think that the academy over booked their classes and found that they were in a financial bind. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. It is my understanding that quite a few individuals that were passing, but whose grade point averages were not as high as the academy would have liked were also sent packing. It's truly very sad...for everyone. Please don't think I'm crying a river...My husband and I did not even know he applied until we got the call from our Senator that he was accepted. He did it all by himself. Responsible, Independent, diligent....you bet! These, I would think are the qualities that should be embraced. Academically, he needed help in Physics. But isn't that what teachers are for? Our plebe is home now...working out the "Regan" way. He is working to help pay for his classes at our community college, where he matched up KP's physics and calc description to the courses at the school. He brought home his physics books and will begin private tutoring. Will he go back to KP? His heart tells him he must. This time, however, he will make sure that knows the book inside and out including the copy write date. Will they accept him? I'm not sure. But he certainly will give it his best shot.
 
Landslide63,
What an amazing son you have raised!! I know you are so so proud of him. He will do amazing things whether he is at KP or not. In my book, they should consider themselves lucky to have a student of his caliber interested in KP.
 
Question(s) for the Alum on this board, all alum, with a special shout out to Jasperdog and Kp2001.

We know many alum fought hard to get "one of their own" at the helm"......seems very reasonable.

In your opinion, is this real or not? (Pendulum far to one side, Review board being marginalized, one strike you're out, etc.etc.)

If this is real, is this what needs to happen to get the academy back on track and it is just the price this group of mids/plebes must pay?

If this is not real, and these observations and opinions have no basis, can you please help us understand? (most on here do not have your experience, insight, and ties back to KP)

Thanks

I'll take a bite at this, wouldn't doubt to see jasper and deepsea far behind.

-Is this real or not? Personally I would venture to guess that we are only hearing of the bad and are not getting a true representation. A blanket statement of "no setbacks" does no good for anyone, the students, the institution, or its alumni. As far as I know nobody here actually sits on the review board or has access to the recommendation letters that are sent to the Admiral Greene so we really don't know what is being said between the two. We have an idea in at least one instance, but that is a very small sample size.

Other posts have been made by a midshipman or two and I would say that those usually aren't too accurate when it comes to the policies of the Academy UNLESS it has been sent out via email or written down in some way. When Admiral Stewart came aboard during my 3rd class year there were all sorts of rumblings, and about 90% of them turned out to be false. There were these same rumors of no setbacks, etc.

I do believe however, that the pendulum is likely swinging closer to where it was during my fourth class year and earlier. Set backs were not a foregone conclusion for academics or regimental issues. They became quite routine during Admiral Stewart's term and that became the new "norm" and what people are now used to. I think you will find that in the coming weeks to months a clearer idea of where the institution is heading in regards to setbacks/disenrollments will emerge.

-If this is real, is this what is needed? A blanket statement, NO. A more rigid standard: YES. One of the reasons that KP is well regarded is the standard of the product it has produced in the past. We are only as good as our last graduate and our anchorman needs to be as well regarded as our valedictorian or else our 'prestige' will diminish. Over the past 13 years or so I have seen many midshipmen continue in the program who I don't think necessarily should. VADM Stewart had his reasons and I will always consider him a great friend of the Academy and it was a pleasure to be a midshipman under his command.

In order to support that mission though we need to ensure that we provide the best opportunities to our midshipmen. That includes instructors who care (LT Klonis is a great example of this as well as CAPT Hard in my experience) and an institution that supports its members.

-If this is not real help us understand: As we all know there are three sides to every story. Unfortunately none of us will likely ever know all of the facts and opinions of those who make the decisions at this time. In the future it will become more clear as we see more and more instances of a decision being made for/against a setback. The information we get on this board is from a self selected group which usually means those who 1)are internet savvy, 2)are opinionated and in many instances internet forums tend to be places to complain (not necessarily the case here).

It is rare you would have someone come on here and tell their survival story because all they want to do is not mess up again. Those who were kicked out will come on to give their story, so you usually end up with slight skew in the statistics.

Anyway, hope that helps, I'm sure others will have different opinions.
 
My older brother was disenrolled from KP after 1 quarter. He went to Cal Maritime (which is really where he wanted to go to begin with) and is currently sailing as 1stMate and just got his unlimited Masters license. I graduated from KP and am on a tugboat. Each must make their own Path to success and not everyone can follow the same path.

Nothing at all wrong with a tugboat. I sailed on them and ITBs for several years. Twice the work (or more) than a ship for 3/4 pay. . . . .But we loved it. In all honest, I really did.
 
I'll take a bite at this, wouldn't doubt to see jasper and deepsea far behind....................

In order to support that mission though we need to ensure that we provide the best opportunities to our midshipmen. That includes instructors who care (LT Klonis is a great example of this as well as CAPT Hard in my experience) and an institution that supports its members.

It is rare you would have someone come on here and tell their survival story because all they want to do is not mess up again...................

Anyway, hope that helps, I'm sure others will have different opinions.

Yes, it does help. Thanks for taking the time.

You will be glad to know that I have heard the same names mentioned above from our mid...along with Bonadonna (not the new chaplain, but the ethics guy and DS's academic advisor) as respected leaders.

As far as a survival stories, I would venture a guess that those could only come from a person that had completely survived (graduated) and was thoughtful enough to share their story.....of course, it seems to be genetic that between the ages of 18-25, when asked to listen to those that have gone before, and to follow their advice, there is not a 100% participation rate!
 
I have walked in your shoes

I am a mom who had a son disenrolled from a school (not Kings Point) It was a school that I was VERY proud that he got accepted and I was ONE PROUD MOTHER!!! Then he was disenrolled, and I was devastated, embarrassed, and ashamed. At first I was VERY angry, finding everyone and everything to blame. Then my husband sat me down (men tend to be more objective). He and I talked about our own son and what was best for HIM. He was devastated, embarrassed and ashamed also. It would not help him to have no support from us because of an emotional upheavel. He needed to see how much we loved him and we were still very proud of him as a person.

We decided to be there for him and help him see the long term picture. It was not the end of the world, life goes on just in a different direction. There was talk about him reapplying and returning, which we encourged, but we suggested he develop some other options also so all eggs were not in one basket. We reinforced that he was able to get into that school, so he has the skills and intelligence to succeed anywhere. We also encouraged him to take the time between schools to improve his weak areas.

This is the time that we were able to show our son in action how to handle things when they don't go right. Yes, there is anger and blaming, but mostly it is a time that we were able to show our son by example that it's possible to pick up the pieces in any situation and go on successfully.

I feel very badly for all you parents. I feel for you and know the frustration! I am praying for you. You have a big job and responsibility of building your student up,they are wonderful, you love them just as much (that has not changed), and encourage them. You have the opportunitiy by example of showing them that life does not stop over this one huge disappointment, the example of resiliancy. You can now work with him/her on plan B (that might turn out in the long run to be the perfect plan.)

My son got his feet back on the ground and moved on, and through that experience I became even prouder of him.
 
Donar is looking into the clearest crystal ball. As the saying goes...it's not personal only business.

Landslide63,
Sounds like you have quite a young man for a son. His story is very humbling. He will triumph.
 
As I Was Invited To Comment and Doing So Is My Usual Nature ..

2013 Parent:

Thanks for asking and as such I'll respond, but before I do let me say why I haven't posted on this thread before this. Please remember I bring the perspective of BOTH an Alumnus as well as the parent of a current midshipmen. As such with my "parent hat on", this thread and the commentary on it has disturbed me several times over the past week since it was first posted, not because of the subject but because of some of the 51 comments that preceded this one. The original poster was at first asking for advice/knowledge and then basically relying information that called for either more positive/constructive response or solace - the best post of that nature likely to come from level headed caring people for example response number 50 earlier today from cookiecafemom - we should thank her for venturing outside of her cookie baking and distributing role and sharing that personal knowledge and experience despite knowing some folks around here thinking that her skills, knowledge, judgement and good advice might be limited to that which involves butter, flour, sugar, chocolate chips, a cookie sheet and a controlled heat source. The reason I didn't and generally don't publicly comment on these sorts of things is I often feel like I don't know what to say that is of general use so if I do comment or respond I send my sympathy and offer for any infomration that person might think I might have via PM.

With that said since you asked and in a format similar to KP2001's response:
Is this real or not? - I believe re: standards raised, review board often marginalized of late, etc. that it is indeed real. i also believe the reasons are as donar and noworries touched on due to the unexpected large size of the reporting class last July. In addition to the funding challenges that they cover, I believe there also is a space issue relative to number of available rooms, etc. this has created, in spite of there being one additional barracks/dorm available than there had been for the prior almost 20 years. A similar issue happened in the early 80's when the Classes of 1981 and 1982 both had fewer than the then historical norm of academic washouts during their plebe years (the Class of 1982 had 254 go through and into our graduating class less than 10 were setbacks from the Class of 1981, and I know at least 5 of those 10 were for medical reasons outside of their control.) In any case that rippled into raised bars and more stringent application of the rules and standards through at least the Class of 1986 that I know of. That wasn't an exceptionally bad thing but as has been noted did mean that there was a higher level of stress for us all, as I recall, especially through the ends of our third class year, at least that's how I felt.

Has the pendulum swung too far? Without real data or details of each case, I can't give you a fair answer. I agree with KP2001 though that while I will always feel that on the whole over his long tenure VADM Stewart did excellent things by the Academy, etc. relative to the policies and what I always felt was too paternal an attitude relative to giving second and in even limited cases third chances he was just too nice a guy. During his time as Superintendent the number of setbacks, etc. granted increased based what I saw when my son reported aboard in July 2008, and the criteria for granting them AND recommending them broadened. So now, assuming that you believe or agree those standards need to be raised and the criteria narrowed, and candidly from what I saw in 2008, they did (just my opinion) then it would be logical there could likely be more cases where the Admiral and/or Dean deviated from the recommendations of the Review Boards recommendations to them, on these matters. Whether that pendulum has swung too far or not, again I make no comment other than with "my alumni hat" on I agreed standards needed to be raised. The reason I am often not vocal in this area is that "with my parent hat" on I know two things: a) I feel nothing but compassion and empathy for the mids and their parents who go through this and b) "There but for the Grace of God ..."

Since I do think this is real: "What needs to happen to get the academy back on track and it is just the price this group of mids/plebes must pay?"

I assume this relates to the whole feeling and question relative to morale, etc. So first I have to say and I know some will react to this in a "Is he bloody kidding me ..." way to this but ... I think the answer(s) are multiple and vary by where in the journey each Class/Split is. I always try not to forget in terms of "morale discussions" where we are in the Calendar and Academic year as well as the how many months or days until the particular midshipman in question's graduation; and in that regard we are just coming out of the dark days of winter. At the end of every trimester whether one midshipmen is disenrolled or many more are, it's always a "gut check" for those that remain. I truly believe, no one likes to see one of their fellow mids have their option of returning to school taken from them, even if they actually don't like that person as an individual. As a minimum it reminds everyone remaining, it could have been them, and no one like being reminded they are "mortal" - that in and of itself lowers moral, at least in the short term. On the flip side as has been noted, working hard and seeing someone who isn't working hard or who isn't meeting the minimums be given second and third chances without at least a little sweat, can and I believe does lower morale as much or more and for even longer periods of time. Again I say this because you asked and as I do I worry about sounding callous and heartless and I am not. All of these things along with the fact that the new Admiral is a leader who is leading and in some cases that is creating discomfort for some led to my earlier comments elsewhere in this forum that for some people change of any sort creates discomfort and that affects morale. However I was one of those who said change was needed so when change comes I feel it's incumbent on me to embrace it and at the very least give it a reasonable amount of time so we can see the longer term results before I comment - but so far I haven't seen anything save for perhaps a poorly considered manner for announcing a personnel change that I felt wasn't a reasonable change to date.

Finally re: Is this just the price this group of mids must pay?" I don't want to uncaring or harsh but bluntly I'd suspect that in at least some cases the answer is yes, but that too would be an over-sweeping generalization if applied to all cases.

Thanks, I don't know these things help or not and again to landslide63 and any of the other families whose midshipmen have been dis-enrolled, my heart goes out to you. They are ALL great kids and if there is anything you feel I might be able to do to help you parents or mids PM me. ACTA NON VERBA
 
Thanks JDog.........I wish I had the KP background to wear your two hats.......My ignorance is a bad disadvantage here......
 
Thank you Jasperdog and to all those who posted to my posts. I truly appreciate all the comforting words and support. It has been an honor to be within the company (at least for a little while) of everyone. From the day I dropped off my son I received the most heart felt letters from other moms and Alumni preparing me for the "first phone call home" the everything in between. It has been a journey..some good and some bad. I am a firm believer in "everything happens for a reason." Although it is his intention I leave it in higher hands. Thank you again.
 
Please know that once a part of the parent family always part of the family. I wish you all well. Please keep us posted as to the next path and chapter. I believe we all end up where we are supposed to be, even though it may make no sense.
 
plebe wannabe

My son applied to the Academy this year for the class of 2015. He did not get in, despite being triple qualified and having a nomination. Why? Because his nomination from his Congressman had not been forwarded to the Academy by the January 31st cutoff date. (He received his nom in December) Of course, I didn't know this at the time, but what I have discovered in subsequent conversations with people in the know is exactly what is reflective here.
The Academy is under tremendous financial pressures for the exact reasons described by Jasper. It has been an unfortunate series of events. The Admiral and the staff have no wiggle room. That's why highly qualified kids are being turned away. That is why kids don't get setbacks. These are tough economic times.

I am sure my son would have gotten an appointment.because he was highly competitive. He has also been placed on a waiting list for the University for the same reasons..high application rates, schools taking out of state kids over in state for higher tuition rates, diversity pushes, etc. This spills over into all areas, including the service academies. The good old days are over, folks.
 
My son applied to the Academy this year for the class of 2015. He did not get in, despite being triple qualified and having a nomination. Why? Because his nomination from his Congressman had not been forwarded to the Academy by the January 31st cutoff date. (He received his nom in December) Of course, I didn't know this at the time, but what I have discovered in subsequent conversations with people in the know is exactly what is reflective here.
The Academy is under tremendous financial pressures for the exact reasons described by Jasper. It has been an unfortunate series of events. The Admiral and the staff have no wiggle room. That's why highly qualified kids are being turned away. That is why kids don't get setbacks. These are tough economic times.

I am sure my son would have gotten an appointment.because he was highly competitive. He has also been placed on a waiting list for the University for the same reasons..high application rates, schools taking out of state kids over in state for higher tuition rates, diversity pushes, etc. This spills over into all areas, including the service academies. The good old days are over, folks.

Don't really see the connection between your son not getting his completed applicaton (to include the Congressional Appointment) in by the due date and financial pressure(s).

Agree things are changing, but one thing is constant; Not good to miss deadlines.

My two cents would be, get him in a school somewhere, take calc and physics.....go talk with Congressman's staff and express interest in applying for a nom next year....then apply on time for 2016 appointment.....In the end this is a little like a self imposed "setback" and he will come in strong on the dymanic duo of Calc and Physics.
 
nominations

Actually, his entire packet (at least the part HE had control over) was complete. He had no control over the Congressman's submission of the nomination. So, I wouldn't exactly categorize it as a self imposed setback.
It was beyond his control. No kids from our congressional district will be going to the academy unless they got a Senatorial nomination and get the appointment from there.
 
nominations

Let me clarify my last reply:

All of the admission paperwork that he had to submit was submitted well before the cutoff date. The only thing missing was the submission of the nomination which must come directly from the Congressman's office. In other words, he was at the mercy of the Congressman's staff to do their job so he could be considered for an appointment.
 
Not sure about this because I didn't need a nomination for USCGA but perhaps your son should have called your Congressman's office in early-mid January to confirm that the nomination had been sent? I had to do something similar for medical last year as well as recommendations.

It's all water under the bridge now but I would definitely encourage your son to reapply again next year while taking hard courses at college.
 
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